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Donald Trump, 45th President of the United States
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psmith81992
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Still crying. Just embarrassing.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 08:07 PM
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Robtard
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More delicious flips thumb up


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 08:10 PM
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psmith81992
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
More delicious flips thumb up


My lord, just stop embarrassing yourself already. You were wrong, move on. It's getting awkward.

Bentley, here:

http://www.examiner.com/article/apo...icans-the-1500s

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/v...s/smallpox.html


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There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 08:17 PM
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Robtard
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Oh my. Jared Diamond supports that settlers/conquers caused nigh genocide in parts of the Americas.

If you're not seen the documentary, it's excellent. Could pick up the book too.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 08:24 PM
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Bentley
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by psmith81992
I wasn't trying to I was correcting your historical inaccuracy.


You must be confusing me with someone else, this is the first thing I post in the subject.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 08:29 PM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by psmith81992
There wasn't mass genocide. 96% of the Indian population died of plague before the Puritans arrived.

Yes, and that remaining 4% (assuming that number is accurate) was then further cut down by genocide and exploitation.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 08:55 PM
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psmith81992
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes, and that remaining 4% (assuming that number is accurate) was then further cut down by genocide and exploitation.


Yup


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There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 08:58 PM
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Omega Vision
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I think the point of contention you have is with the word "mass" in mass genocide. So let's shelve that and just focus on the word "genocide." I don't think we need to reach a specific number to call it genocide, I think the only criteria necessary are proportion and intent. If there's 90 tribespeople on an island and you kill 85, 70, or even 45 just because of who they are, that's genocide. There's a mountain of evidence that where settlers went, the native populations were eventually either forced away or wiped out, and in many cases the settlers themselves would admit that it was because of race. I'm fairly certain there's even a line in the Declaration of Independence that calls natives (or at least the ones fighting with the British) "Godless savages."

I don't think you're trying to deny that this happened, but by quibbling so vehemently over something like whether most Indians were killed by plague or violence and by objecting to the word "genocide" (with mass in front of it or otherwise) it might be seen as trivializing what happened just for the sake of being technically more correct historically.


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“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 09:04 PM
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psmith81992
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You're right, I was only doing it for the sake of historical continuity. I agree that our founders engaged in genocide.


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An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 09:05 PM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by psmith81992
You're right, I was only doing it for the sake of historical continuity. I agree that our founders engaged in genocide.

Well do you see how that might be misconstrued though?


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“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 09:08 PM
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psmith81992
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Well do you see how that might be misconstrued though?


Yea, I suppose so. But most people aren't aware that the majority of the Indian population died out before we got there so if one were to say "we killed them all", one would be speaking from ignorance.


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There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 09:09 PM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by psmith81992
Yea, I suppose so. But most people aren't aware that the majority of the Indian population died out before we got there so if one were to say "we killed them all", one would be speaking from ignorance.

Even if there hadn't been any intentional violence, if Columbus and every explorer and settler following had all been as nice and gracious as possible to the Natives, just bringing smallpox to them would be something worth regretting. At this point the only context in which the breakdown of deaths from disease vs deaths from violence and exploitation (and resource destruction--don't forget that the Americans actually had a policy of wiping out the buffalo to starve the plains Indians during the middle 19th century) would matter would be in a discussion between historians.


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“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 09:15 PM
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Robtard
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Was that actually a policy, or were they overhunted for the hides? Though I guess both could work in conjunction.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 09:21 PM
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Omega Vision
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IIRC it was a policy of the railroad companies, whose business depended on a manageable Indian population, so they hired hunters to basically kill the buffalo. The meat and hides were a benefit.


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“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 09:57 PM
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Star428
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So what if our ancestors engaged in genocide? I don't really see what that has to do with anything. They came. They saw. They conquered. It's not like the rest of the world back then didn't engage in stuff like that. African civilizations like the Zulu engaged in it against other African civilizations. The American indians themselves, long before Columbus set foot on the continent, wiped out other tribes over things like having access to hunting grounds. Some asian civs engaged in it also and probably (though not sure about this one) some south american tribes too.


Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about our ancestors being "murdering bastards" when the rest of the world was no better than they were.


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Last edited by Star428 on Jul 7th, 2015 at 10:19 PM

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 10:12 PM
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Robtard
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"So what if modern America was founded on oppression, genocide and slavery, other people did it too!" Spoken like a "true" Christian thumb up

IMO, you always condemn actions like that, that way there's less of a chance of it happening again.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 10:23 PM
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psmith81992
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quote:
"So what if modern America was founded on oppression, genocide and slavery, other people did it too!" Spoken like a "true" Christian

This sounds like a self hating American. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. Also not sure what being "Christian" has to do with this. Is this some predetermined secularist rebuttal? I'm confused.


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There's a man goin' 'round takin' names.
An' he decides who to free and who to blame.
Everybody won't be treated all the same.
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down.
When the man comes around.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 10:27 PM
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NemeBro
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No, it's a rebuttal specifically targeted at Star, who is a Christian.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 10:32 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by psmith81992
This sounds like a self hating American. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. Also not sure what being "Christian" has to do with this. Is this some predetermined secularist rebuttal? I'm confused.


That was me mocking Star's "So what if genocide happened" post.

The "true" Christian part was me implying that he's a C.I.N.O., considering his attitude. Edit: That's 'Christian In Name Only'.

Do you always go loony at imagined threats to Christianity?


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Last edited by Robtard on Jul 7th, 2015 at 10:38 PM

Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 10:35 PM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
No, it's a rebuttal specifically targeted at Star, who is a Christian.


See, this guy got it.


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2015 10:36 PM
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