Killing an army of clone troopers supported by Jedi with his claws before receiving any formal lightsaber training, fighting evenly with Mace Windu under negative circumstances, "handily" defeating both Ventress and Durge, and challenging Dooku strike me as a tad bit more impressive than what Maul has done. The difference is slight, but I think it's there. Oh, and if you want to include TCW feats, there is also Grievous stomping Obi-Wan. This being an inferior version of the character.
TCW Grievous has never stomped Obi-Wan by virtue of lightsaber skill. He's only stomped Obi-Wan by bladelocking him and then splitting his arms into extra ones to throw Obi-Wan around. Considering he failed to stomp Ahsoka, I'm not convinced he's capable of "stomping" Obi-Wan.
Given his physical traits (and, at times, number of blades), challenging Dooku isn't an overwhelming feat or anything Maul can't replicate. Mace's fight was sort of short - he probably would have been able to win had the fight dragged on. It's a good feat considering his lack of mobility, but I'm confident Maul could replicate the same showing under those circumstances for that short period of time. As it is, Grievous was quickly adjusting to Mace's Vaapad, whereas Mace would've been less acclimatized towards fighting Grievous.
If I recall correctly, Grievous's fight against Ventress and Durge involved physical traits at least as much as skill. I'm not convinced it's any better than Maul holding the edge over both Qui-Gon Jinn (who was one of the best swordsmen ever produced by the Jedi Order), who was being aided by Obi-Wan Kenobi (who had sparred closely with Jinn before).
Stomping might be an exaggeration (I use the word more to prove that TCW Grievous is impressive than anything else), but he did defeat him twice, so he should be Kenobi's superior.
His physical traits were not a problem for Dooku, so I don't see why bring them up, and it was the Count himself who stated that he was at times hard pressed to beat Grievous. What makes you think his fight with Mace was short? As I recall, this was never stated in the quote. And I guess Grievous adjusting to Mace's style makes him skilled at adapting to his opponents in battle, so I think that counts, not to mention Windu had free mobility, which gave him an advantage.
To be fair, Durge managed to hit him with his electric weapons, and Ventress slashed him with both her lightsabers, but still, Ventress is considerably better than Qui Gon and TPM Kenobi, and Durge was capable of seeing Jedi like Kenobi himself in slow motion, so I'd say they are better than the other duo. Also, Grievous didn't have his lightsabers when this happened. When he started using them, he decapitated Durge and defeated Ventress. And for the record, Asaji is a duelist on Maul's level.
And then, there is him besting Foul Moudama and Roron Corobb, who were stated as being among the best duelists in the Order. Yes, I still think he is slightly more skilled than Maul.
Maul is easily Kenobi's (or Fisto's) equal in sabers so I don't see how Grievous is the superior duelist, nor do I see how Grievous is faster or stronger than Maul. Nor is it as if Ventress or Durge would be a match for Maul anymore than they were for Kenobi.
Noting that Ventress, in her prime, defeated Grievous in pure sabers... I think it's pretty obvious who wins here.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Jul 1st, 2015 at 01:50 PM
I'm sure given the breadth of Maul's unarmed skill, he'd be able to do the same with Grievous' cybernetics. Also, Grievous was a master swordsman as a Kaleesh, so it's not like he was totally inept at the time.
It's a solid feat but I don't think I'll be putting it past Maul's capabilities. The only ground for real comparison we have is Maul fighting Mace in SoD, and, while short, the number of panels we're given don't do justice the length the fight actually was. We know Maul at least fought Mace long enough to kick Aayla off her feet, her to get back to her feet and continue fighting him, as well as the time it took Dooku to fight Kenobi and Tiplee, which is a fair amount of time, and he wasn't at a disadvantage by the time the fight was cut short.
And while a great feat, I don't think it's exactly fair to use given in other sources, Durge has beaten Fisto and Plo simultaneously, challenged Anakin and Kenobi simultaneously, and challenged Anakin on even footing just short of RotS. The fight was just poorly written, IMO.
You really don't think Maul is capable of "challenging" Dooku?
It's a great feat, but I don't think it's enough to put him above Maul alone; his fights against Kenobi have always been pretty close and any edges he took were because of his superior physicality. Just because he puts Kenobi on his ass in one scenario out of 10 doesn't mean it's the standard.
Having said that, if we want to go this route I'd just direct you to Maul fighting on near-even footing with Sidious at the climax of their duel, where Sidious has noticeably started taking it seriously.
What's more reliable is taking into account that they already had an even fight in SoD. Both have comparably impressive accolades, comparable feats of skill, Grievous has his cybernetics, Maul has the Force and it's inherent advantages: it's a close fight that would probably go either way.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Not seeing the justification for Fisto being that high, but sure, Maul and Kenobi are pretty equal.
Neither do I, but if you're implying that Grievous is worse based on his performance against Kenobi and Fisto; I'd point to his earlier performances against Kenobi, Mace pointing out that Kenobi is possibly the best suited of all Jedi to fight Grievous, as well as the text in RotS making clear that Kenobi had fought better than he ever had before in that one particular duel
Astonishing Durge's perceptions, astonishing Mace, fighting faster than Obi-Wan (at one point faster than he can realize), etc, come off as better than Maul. For strength, even setting OCW aside, lifting up a durasteel security console and throwing it at Anakin/Obi-Wan pretty easily, smashing through a phrik alloy staff, etc, strikes me as better than Maul's showings albeit not by a tremendous amount.
The whole point of Grievous' cybernetics is they give him physical traits above "any Jedi", although obviously he's not above everyone, he's above most, Maul included. But Maul has the Force, so it balances out.
Seeing as both have given Kenobi, Anakin, Fisto and Plo hell individually, I fail to see where you're going with this. The two of them combined by all rights should be able to defeat Maul, or Grievous really, hence why I think the fight is poorly written.
On Dathomir*
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Beating Grievous and being among the best in the Order/Jedi history. Kenobi might be a bit better but not hugely so.
Granted, but what about Fisto? I can't think of any particular stylistic advantages he would have had.Really? Maul has astonished Plagueis, appeared invisible to Komari Vosa (while injured), appearing invisible to holocameras, appearing to teleport to stormtroopers (if you count his clone feats), blitzed magnaguards, caught arrows in mid-flight etc., surely these feats are just as impressive, if not more.
Though granted, Grievous' mechanical appendages mean he can manipulate with inhuman dexterity, but doesn't mean he can move faster, just attack faster.Considering Maul has shattered spines with a blow, ripped out the heart from the torso of a Wampa, and torn off the skull of a varactly without Force augmentation, I find that very hard to believe.Maul is a Sith.
If we are talking strictly physical ability then yes, but Force augmented physical ability is really the only kind worth discussing... thing is though one of Maul's defining traits is his immense physical ability.In OCW Kenobi pretty handily defeated Durge, and he's schooled Ventress in the past as well, though really that OCW comic (Rogues Gallery) can't really be compared with anything others of its own kind, considering how radically it differs in portrayal compared Canon and the rest of the EU.Has it even been called a nexus?
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Jul 1st, 2015 at 04:08 PM
And interestingly enough, when Kenobi finally stomps Grievous(in Sabers), it's when Grievous is using all 4 arms to wield 4 Lightsabers. I.e. No surprise hands splitting up and coming in for physical attacks.
Ventress and Fisto also did well against Grievous when he was wielding Sabers in all 4 arms from the get go.
He's probably just better at wielding 2. And like mentioned above, with 2, he can surprise his opponents with physical attacks from his other 2 arms. Grievous makes use of his immense strength where possible.
@Beni - Dathomir is obviously a nexus which is the source of the Nightsisters' powers, hence why Talzin describes other, non-nexus worlds as "sterile". And Luke compared the nexus to that of Dathomir's, which concealed Yoda's presence.
@Nagaroth -
1. With the arms, not by virtue of blade skill.
2. His physical traits weren't a problem for Dooku in the animated spar, where Dooku evidently didn't have much difficulty in repelling Grievous's attacks whilst pointing out the flaws in his technique, and then disarming him.
In the novel, however, nothing suggests Grievous' challenges to Dooku were solely by virtue of skill, so his physical superiority (at least in strength and ferocity, which Makashi is weak to) should be considered by default, as is the fact that he may have chosen to wield four blades in the past, which would be harder to utilize Makashi against effectively. And besides, it's not beyond Maul to challenge Dooku either - that's ridiculous. Also, I'll remind you that the wording of the text kind of makes it clear and Grievous doesn't challenge Dooku on a number of occassions.
3. That's just a poorly written fight, which is extremely obvious when you have Ventress disarming Grievous and then Grievous just choking her into unconsciousness. And IIRC, Durge got decapitated and was still speaking/groaning afterwards, which means he wasn't incapacitated, and that suggests that he should've been able to put himself together.
Regardless, as I said, that fight involved copious amounts of physical power, and I'm unsure of whether it's consistent at all given how Durge has already challenged Obi-Wan/Anakin and beaten Kit Fisto/Plo Koon. Ventress - well, you said yourself how good she is. In being a Maul-tier combatant, you do realize she'd also be a Grievous-tier combatant, yes?
Registered: Jul 2014
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What other worlds does Talzin describe as Sterile? The only one I know of is a space station that contained no life bar herself and the attackers, sterile is an apt definition of a place like that.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
Jun 29th, 2015 12:09 PM
