Relax: much like you addressed one of my posts earlier in the thread uninvited, I found the comment sufficiently intriguing, so address it I did.
Uh-huh. Those examples would be you citing obscure instances and engaging in pretty blatant revisionist history. There’s a reason I pre-empted you in my previous post. Your plea is essentially: Hey, ignore the dozens of times I’ve argued X for the handful of times I’ve argued Y. We’re discussing tendency, not individual cases. You have an overwhelming tendency to favor ancient Sith, to disfavor Sheev, and to quash dissenting opinions. That’s not the behavior of the devil’s advocate and nothing’s changed in 10 years.
I’m honestly not sure why you even care so much to pretend otherwise. You’re entitled to your opinion; no one’s going to think you’re a dumbass just because you think Ragnos is cooler than Sheev.
Plenty of people around here “venerate” characters. I refer you to Janus and Ragnos, LeGenD and Vitiate, Nephthys and Nihilus, Emperordmb and Bane, etc. and so forth. It looks like you just have a particular issue with this character and/or the people backing him. Not sure why, but I don’t think anyone particularly cares. Again I say unto ye: It’s perfectly acceptable to dislike Sheev.
Oh stahp. Janus even acknowledges that the antediluvian party line was "the status quo”:
I won’t apologize for not equating your interpretations and inferences to fact while simultaneously inviting you to explain yourself further.
You claimed that cunning and strategy had nothing to with ancient Sith philosophy. You were wrong. I didn’t make a similarly mistaken claim regarding single combat. I’m simply pointing out to you that Sith like Ragnos employed both direct confrontation and cunning to securing his mantle… much as Sidious himself has done {cf. his beatdown of Maul}. Fundamentally there’s no real difference: the embodiment of successful ancient Sith philosophy employed similar strategies to the embodiment of successful Banite Sith philosophy, which was the point I endeavored to make.
Sure, there were more dark siders for the ancient Sith to deal with than with Sheev. That doesn’t equate to a lack of evidence of Sheev’s ability to defeat “powerful dark side users,” which is what you claimed.
That other people spent more time fighting or honing their martial skills doesn’t necessarily afford an advantage over Sheev in combat. I refer you to Savage Opress, Darth Maul, and the B-Team.
SunRazer and Beniboybling have dedicated significant time and text to demonstrating that. I see no reason to be redundant.
You don’t have to be impressed by anything Sidious did. I didn’t start this debate with you; I know what you think of the character and I couldn’t care less where you place him. As I’ve said repeatedly, you’re entitled to your opinion.
For all we know any fight between one of the powerhouses in the SW mythology and SidiousMarka Ragnos could go either way. And no amount of statements, feats or accolades presented to hype SidiousRagnos is going to change that.
The rest is more or less a repeat of the above. I get it: you think Kun has this in the bag. That’s fine. I disagree and have explained why on more than one occasion. We don’t see eye to eye on this and probably never will. That’s why I’ve been content for years to just not discuss the issue with you. It’s all good.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
I laughed.
There is nothing "unclear" about this particular issue. Chee is asked a very general question (let me quote):
"Right, one question Leland: say if we were having a debate on who was the most powerful sith ever, and a random sourcebook states that Sidious is, would that make it absolute, and render the discussion over, or would is still only be a matter of opinion and still up for debate?"
Emphasis mine. His answer:
"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate. Is the power being measured referring to his mastery over the dark side of the Force, the governmental powers he wields as Emperor, or some combination of both?"
Again: Emphasis mine. He answers the general question with a general answer. Interpreting the question that follows as a "further inquiry to the source" is complete and utter nonsense. And that is not an "opinion" but a fact. Because not only does the question clearly asks for a random sourcebook and but Chee clearly didn't expect a clear answer to that question coming forth, since he denied the existance of a clear answer with his first sentence. So if you either are or want to play stupid, please don't me for your lack of reading comprehension. And, likewise, don't attempt an "ad hominem" (go straight to Wikipedia and educate yourself) against me, because you can't refute my reasoning. You will not gloss over the fact that you are wrong. Admit it, or shut up. I will just accept your lack of any attempt to refute my reasoning as concession. In fact, it's nothing but a declaration of bankruptcy in terms of logic and reason.
And once more: Ad hominem. What has my reasoning on Chee's quote to do with anything else I posted. The correct answer is: Nothing. Again, you're just attempting to gloss over your lack of reading comprehension and inability to either come up with a logical sound argument regarding the issue or admit that you were wrong.
That being said: You're still incapable of comprehending my line of thought. There are two instances of the description of force speed. One comes from individuals perceiving users of the ability, while not using it themselves. In that case, the individual using the ability always moves "too fast for the eye to see." This is the case when you watch TPM and peceive Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as blurs, when they speed away from the Droidekas.
Then there is the other instance, where both of the characters are utilizing the technique to a certain degree (augmented speed for fights). And there Sidious is certainly among the top users of the ability. I didn't question that. But Sidious also does not move "faster than the eye can see" in this instances, as people usually react to his attacks - even Maul, who perceived him as "too fast" before. Here, both instances are mixed to imply that Sidious can use force speed in combat to such an degree that he becomes invisible to his direct opponent - which did never happen.
And there is very much reason to suggest that Kun, when it comes to "combat speed" is very much in one league with Sidious. Unfortunately, arriving at that conclusion requires some critical thinking and abstract thinking instead of just reading quotes - two abilities not commonly available to people here, as it seems.
Wrong.
To do more "Latin-flaunting" for you: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat. The burden of proof is on with the one that declares and not with the one that denies. This is true for law cases and philosophical debates as well. If you want Sidious to be faster than Kun, you have to prove he is faster than Kun. Seeing that you can't do it, there is no reason to believe he is faster than Kun.
Yes. It is an sufficient answer, because without a direct comparison of two characters in terms of speed, all we have to go by is speculation who of them might be faster than the other.
For Kun, we are missing "speed feats" - in comparison to Sidious - which largely stems from a lack of source-material regarding his persona and a verbatim description of his fights, which are just there in the form of comic panels. Those, however, demonstrate that Kun wields his weapon fast enough to leave visible after-images behind. Then we have the instance in which Kun speed blitzes the two thugs after leaving Nadd's grave. An unspectacular use of the ability - a demonstration he is capable of utilizing it, nonetheless.
The main point though, would be Kun's fight with Ulic Qel-Droma, who's field record suggests that he is quite fast, given that he personally took down: giant beasts (drexl on Onderon), trained warriors (Beast Riders), two Sith magicians (Ommin and Satal), a being with the spirit of an Ancient Sith (Warb Null), Mandalore, fighting him on a Basilisk war droid and his own brother in direct combat. On top of that, he was capable of defending himself against an enraged Jedi while having no connection to the Force any longer. The list of beings capable of challenging a Jedi / Sith in melee combat is very short and Qel-Droma is on that list. Imagine what he is capable of with force aided speed/strength and precognition. And Kun managed to fight him into a standstill.
And now, we can add the appeal to majority to the list of logical fallacies you've commited so far. And a strawman argument as well.
Sidious has not been presented as Kun's superior, since - so far - I've refuted every of "zeh absolute quote" proclaiming the superiority of Sidious. Nobody has answered my reasoning in that regard (intellectual incapability?), which leaves me with the impression, that nobody is capable of doing so. Not surprising for me, because I know that I'm right.
And I'm not "low-balling" anything either. I just put things into perspective, where my opposition does just take things literally, without making an attempt to critically analyze the quotes they are citing. It's certainly not my fault if people are too lazy to formulate a reasonable argument, is it?
Since I'm pretty much winning, due to a lack of oposing arguments, I don't need to save face. And "Latin-flaunting"? I'm very sorry that I, unlike you, enjoyed something called "education" and hence are capable of using the technical terms / figure of speech describing some logical stunts commited here. You can find the adequate translations here. Educate yourself, have fun.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
My dear Darth Thor.
I was rather certain that, giving we were discussing combat here, it was pretty clear, that, when I was talking "Sith skills", I was talking about those that come in handy in direct confrontation. Yet, you use the better part of your posting to demonstrate, that Maul was also capable of manipulation. Nice thing. Doesn't help him in combat and is, therefor, entirely irrelevant to our debate. So I left the parts in question out. Which first leads me there:
Since Sidious' training is all that Maul knew it is pretty clear, that he couldn't have used anything else to archive his goals. However. He, thus far, just demonstrated his combat related skills, some telekinesis and manipulation. None of that even remotely on a level to "rival" Sidious. And in that regard, you left the deciding sentence out, which I have introduced to the debate earlier:
"Remember the first and only reality of the Sith. There can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced." - Sidious in TCW "The Lawless".
The reason for Sidious to label him "rival" is, that Maul doesn't longer belong to the usual master - apprentice duo that form the Sith Order. The action of seperating himself from his masters command, having been replaced, and training an apprentice for himself (his brother) are enough reasons for Sidious to remove him from the picture.
None of that suggest that Maul was ever trained as a "real Sith Lord" by Sidious. With "all types of Sith ways" Filoni is clearly referring to manipulation ("not the least of which...") and not advanced force techniques. Which is entirely irrelevant anyway, since Filoni's words aren't canon.
Maul's combat prowess was never in question. His ability to use the Force was. None of the two Jedi masters have attacked him directly with the Force. Assant used it for building a trap that almost killed Maul, Kenobi used it in an unorthodox fashion in order to defeat him. As we have seen, Sidious can simply own him at will with any kind of force attack, while he is incapable of doing the same while in combat with more powerful Force users (Mace, Yoda).
Force Lightning and the ability to deflect it would be a start, yes. Because Sidious himself labeled that an ability reserved for advanced Sith studends / Sith Lords:
"Those who follow the dark side may learn to release pure energy from their fingertips This Force lightning can be directed at a target and cause great pain as it siphons off the living energy and eventually kills its victim. Knowledge of this power has long been limited to the Sith Lords. No, you are not prepared for any more information at this time. - Darth Sidious as Holocron Gatekeeper, Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.176
Emphasis mine. Apparently, Maul was one of the individuals "not prepared" for learning the ability.
Yes. I've cited it already, multiple times in fact:
"I too him [Darth Maul] from his homeworld, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.[...]Maul completed his basic training several years before the Battle of Naboo, and served me well as an assassin and extension of my will. Als loyal as he was, I made no effort to caution him when I foresaw his death in a duel with the Jedi on Naboo[...]Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool[...]" - Darth Sidious, Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.169
Emphasis mine.
Sidious did train Maul as a weapon. He makes no notice of having trained his apprentice in Sith ways (especially advanced force techniques) but just talks about martial arts. Furthermore he states that Maul had just completed his basic training some years before his death and calls him a "tool".
Nothing of that does much to contradict the idea that Maul was no "real Sith Lord".
Nope. I'm still trying to put things into perspective.
Maul just fought Jedi (and people that weren't force sensitives) in a sucessful fashion. Once confronted with a powerful Dark Side adversary, he gets owned. Much like he would get owned by anybody capable of willing to use force attacks against him.
Following that line of thought, Sidious ability to defeat him with force attacks is certainly less impressive than some people would like it to be. That's all.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
"Also Nai is right that he often came to blows with Illustrious and myself and others (*Cough*Sorgo*Cough*). Sometimes he disagreed for the sake of having a dissenting opinion, regardless of group affiliation.I don't see why you'd assert otherwise, except to discredit him indirectly without attacking his argument.
And what do we have here? You attempting to discredit me indirectly, without attacking my arguments. Fun.
If you want to argue tendency, you will have to agree to the fact that I seldomly argue for somebody, I usually argue against somebody. Which is precisely what the Advocatus Diabolus (or devil's advocate) does, which everybody familiar with the history of the title can tell you. That you still haven't grasped it - despite me lecturing you on it...I don't know...how many times...actually leads to the suggestion that you either don't want to understand or are, simply put, stupid. While I would have suggested the former, I'm not so certain anymore...
That it is usually Sidious against which I'm arguing, stems from the fact, that a nice part of the unreasonable nonsense in this forum can be traced to a single source. And, gosh, it is still carried forth in the same stupid fashion years later
So, yes. Nothing has changed in the past 10 years. You're still an ignoramus. A fanboy, that has turned his back on logic, reason and critical thinking to stare at the tapestry of the wall inside his head. Unfortunatelly, you still have enough talent in rhetorics, to sell your opinion as "objective", "educated", "reasonable" to most of the goofs that keep reading your stuff.
I wonder if you can type a single post without resorting to strawmanning. Apparently not. You've have precisely zero idea about my "opinions", so you might as well stop formulating them for me. It's getting old. Even just considering the stuff you think I represent does totally not fit this "description". And in this particular case, you should have switched Ragnos with Kun in order to even remotely make sense.
A classical instance of "tu quoque". Why should I ignore the nonsense that is written down here in favor of Sidious, just because some other people may post nonsense in the name of other characters? I'm not the forum police, I'm here for entertainment purpose. Yet, I still haven't seen any of those people typing down a 12-page-essay on how their favorite is "zeh most powerful force user in the mythos", which means you're still the worst example of the lot. You disagree?
This particular accusation of yours has been denied countless times, so one has to wonder why you bring it to the table once more. Oh. Yes. To avoid answering my arguments, and attempt to attack me indirectly. As usual...
Not that I acknowledge that Sidious might be the most powerful Sith Lord back in 2006 already. That's nine years in which you haven't got the point. And, of course, you forgot to quote that little link here. May I quote myself:
"Out of the Orders of Jedi and Sith, I can only see rather few (Luke Skywalker, Exar Kun, perhabs Ragnos) standing up to the likes of Vitiate and Sidious."
This after a four-post-long pro-Vitiate argument from myself. Oh. So much hatred for Sheev there. Give me a call when your done with your attempts to discredit my arguments based on my "bias against Sidious" without adressing them directly.
Have you still not figured out how to draw straight lines in graphic programs?
It is most impressive, that your lack of reading comprehension transcends the realm of Star Wars. Janus was, strictly speaking, talking about a group internal "status quo", to which I - just on a sidenote - never agreed. You may just want to go and check vote results in the hayday of the Antedeluvians. Despite everybody being bashed down, at the end you had 50 percent of the people (and often even more) voting for the position not favour by "the status quo". You may want to do a reality check and then tell me, if you think equal numbers could be reached today.
Oh. That was great. You really admitted, that Sidious would get beaten by nobody else than, well, The Son? Who is pretty much an incarnation of the Dark Side. I can understand, why you left out the link to the thread in question to obscure that little fact. After all, we know your most recent and carefully worded take on the issue is quite different, don't we:
The point that you keep ignoring is, that Ragnos was unique in this. And you're comparing apples to oranges again: Sidious beating down Maul, whom he had trained to lose against him, should Maul ever challenge him is most certainly not compareable to having to fight your way to a position and defend it from several people that rival you in terms of combat prowess and power. Sidious (and pretty much all other Sith of Bane's order) avoided such competition - in both becoming the master and defending that position.
The lack of evidence of Sheev's ability to defeat "powerful dark side users" is what equates to a lack of evidence of his ability to do so. And that wasn't what I claimed (thanks for another strawman). What I claimed was, that the Ancient Sith would be more used to combat other Dark Side users than Sidious is. You disagree?
That aside: Sidious can hardly manage powerful Jedi, while being boosted through an unbalancing of the Force, while the abilities to use the Force of said Jedi have been diminished at the same time. Why do you think he can hold his own against people who slaughtered Jedi without such a huge advantage on their side and that while not having the advantage on his side any longer?
Whom of the people you listed do you think is even remotely compareable to Exar Kun in that particular regard? Maul seems to be the only one, and I see a rather huge difference in terms of force abilities, when comparing him to Kun. You don't?
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
They have dedicated significant time to recite points I've crushed years ago, without coming close to prove anything, especially not the stuff I've just asked you for.
Oh. Debating culture of KMC in 2015: "You can just believe what you want. There is no point in debating anything. *shrug*" Is there are reason why you're still here? A blog would be the right place to post your opinion without need to debate it. Didn't I say something about a "decline of debating culture"? You're the prime example of that, as it seems.
So much bandwith wasted before posting a single statement that makes sense. Now you just need to act accordingly.
First: I don't think, Kun has this in the bag. I think that Sidious does not. Can you spot the difference?
Secondly: You have never explained why you disagree, since you have avoided to answer anything being handed in for Kun (or anybody else). You, and your little friends, just have resorted to fall back to citing quotes - being unable to think for yourselfs. As if piling up a compilation of quotes makes everything else disappear in a magical fashion. That's certainly most telling, yet not very entertaining.
Thirdly: You refrained from arguing the topic, because you can't argue it. So the only option you have to save face is avoid a discussion. Which you have done with this very posting once again. Not the first and not the last time, I suppose. Can't blame you. Stick to your peer group of those holding a similar opinion and avoid any introspective thought. What works for most fundamentalist most certainly can work for you as well. You could start by putting me back on your ignore list.
Since they are just as incapable as you are, with Razer being even more competent in "playing stupid" than you are, I don't see much reason - neither do they, apparently.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Wow, this really blew up in the last week or so; usually threads like these are tied up almost as quickly as they're made. Looks like there's a fair bit of debate being had, though.
Nai, you seem to be the primary supporter of Kun here; that's a pretty rare stance these days tbh. I haven't really been keeping up, but I'm curious. Would you mind summing up your thoughts on the topic thus far so I can get a better idea of what's up?
Kun can win because even if Palpatine is the strongest the gap between Kun and Palpatine is not so huge that Kun can't defeat Palpatine and thanks to his wide arrange of abilities he could. That's what I'm getting from Nai. Correct me if I'm wrong tho.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
I studied Latin throughout High School and I had to translate a number of the classical texts, so I'm well aware of their meaning, lol. Considering my school was regarded as one of the greatest in my state, I think I enjoyed above-adequate education. Not that the education insults do anything other than show how desperate Nai is. I know everything he's said thus far, and even if I didn't, I'm not so stupid that I can't find ways to translate them online.
Not that any of this matters, considering Nai just contradicted himself as Trocity kindly pointed out.
Oh, and for Palpatine being faster - he's moved faster than the likes of Maul and Anakin could see - both have demonstrated superior showings than the ones Nai listed. Anakin has taken down entire small armies by himself, moved fast enough to be seemingly everywhere at once, coated himself in light, made Dooku see an entire room in an electric blue haze (his lightsaber), etc.
Maul has moved so fast that cameras would have to be slowed down in order to perceive him at all, he's thrown two blows so quickly that an onlooker wouldn't be able to distinguish which came first, and he's faster than Qui-Gon Jinn as per the latter's admission in the TPM novel, and Qui-Gon has disarmed beings before anybody could even take a breath.
Also, I believe Nai was the one who declared that Force Speed would be irrelevant to this fight, and he's trying to worm his way out with yet another Latin phrase and accusing others of declaring Sidious' speed superiority. That's already been proven. The fact of matter is that the whole argument about Force Speed becoming irrelevant to a fight because most characters can perform it is simply something that Nai initially proclaimed, and there's simply no avoiding the fact that it's not only an unproven, unsubstantiated claim, but flat-out wrong, because Palpatine has already defeated slower opponents almost entirely by virtue of speed (Shadow Conspiracy, as has already been quoted by NewGuy01 and completely ignored by Nai).
Last edited by SunRazer on Jul 27th, 2015 at 09:54 AM
I don't recall anyone among us in this thread seriously contending that there's no way Sheev can lose this. Anyone can beat anybody under the proper circumstances, after all. It's just that one side believes the Emperor has probability on his side to various degrees.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
I'm very sorry that this took some time, but I had a rather busy work- and party-schedule from the last week on.
So what was the point of SunRazor mentioning my "latin-flaunting" exactly? "Ad hominem" seems to be the correct answer. Apparently, he's running out of arguments. One can only guess, why a being with "above-adequate education" is not only inable to come up with arguments not consisting of logical fallacies only, but also doesn't grasp the fact, that such arguments don't win debates.
And there goes the next "ad hominem". How exactly does a statement of myself, worded rather harshly to stir debate and the seemingly contradicting statement I made later render any of my arguments worthless? They don't. Correct. Do I need to point out once more that SunRazor does attempt to discredit my arguments without adressing them?
I've already answered multiple times that a force user making use of the ability will always appear as nigh invisible / a blur to people who don't use the ability. Demonstrated by every single discription of the ability in use by observers. So this instances are pretty much worthless to determine Sidious speed next to another force user in combat. Apparently, SunRazer doesn't get it and hence repeats the already defeated point like a broken record.
SunRazor, of course, forgets the little fact, that it has not been proven. Citing quotes that talk about Sidious' speed don't constitute as proof when the question is, if he is faster than Kun. None of the "speed feats" brought to the table for Sidious does demonstrate that he is faster than Kun, and simply proclaiming that it has been done, doesn't make it so. Ipsedixitism doesn't win debates.
But just for the fun of it, let me just prove my point:
"By using the Force to attune their entire body with their heightened reflexes, Jedi can use the skill commonly reffered to as the burst of speed to sprint with such velocity that they appear to vanish from their starting point. In unarmed combat, this ability can be utilized to bring a rapid end to a fight." - Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.71
Emphasis mine.
So it is common for Jedi to use the ability to such a degree, that they appear to vanish from the spot. Can you once again tell me, where Sidious use of the ability is extraordinary (read: beyond that)? You may also have a look at Luke Skywalkers account of his (unwitting) use of the specific ability, against Guri, an inhumanly fast assassination droid:
"Guri's hand was coming down like a blade at me. A death strike. I watched her hand descend, saw it moving to smash me, but it seemed so incredibly slow that I was able to roll aside and stand before the blow could land.[...]Guri seemed to be suddenly mired in thickened time." - Luke Skywalker, Jedi vs. Sith - The New Essential Guide to the Force, p. 72.
Emphasis mine.
If Luke can perceive what he did and react as he did to an inhumanly fast opponent, while perceiving said opponent in slow-motion, the oposite site would be what a force user (read: inhumanly fast being) would perceive, when a burst of speed is used against him: His opponent vanishing from the spot / moving in blurs. And this is Luke Skywalker in "Shadows of the Empire" (between ESB and RotJ).
The fact of the matter is, that SunRazor still can't prove Sidious is faster than Kun. This is an assumption based on Sidious' speed feats and a complete disregard for the idea that Kun, being the most powerful force user of his era, would have access to similar force enchancement in combat. The quote NewGuy01 has brought to the table was adressed in the precise way I would have adressed it: The novel version of the fight contradicts the higher level canon of the TCW episode, hence being a complete non-issue.
So to let me recap that: There is precisely one non-canon incident where Sidious has defeated somebody because of his speed, with his opponent being leagues below Exar Kun when it comes to force powers. And as it is a non-canon incident, SunRazor has precisely nothing to support his claim. Guess who's been telling him for the entire time.
@The_Tempest
Sure thing. You may have missed that:
Translation: "The probability is on Sidious' side."
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
And since I was asked to (re)post the reasons for me thinking that Kun will win rather than Sidious...
Overall Ability
Some people here do apparently think, that Sidious is "the most powerful" Sith Lord / Force user and that's the end of the story. While I don't share this opinion, I don't have to argue it, since there is more than enough going to Kun. Starting of as a Jedi apprentice, Kun was a being of noteable talent. His master Vodo points out multiple times, that Kun is the most formidable student he has ever seen. Coming from a 600 year old Jedi Master, this points to a noteable potential in terms of force ability / lightsaber ability. Testament from Vodo himself:
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"Exar Kun was my greatest student," Master Vodo said, "yet he was corrupted. He was seduced by the powers available to him through studies of ancient Sith teachings." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice.
So, again: He is the most formidable and greatest student that Vodo had in the past six centuries and probably by far if Vodo casts a judgement like this. Being one of the most gifted in centuries speaks for a rare quality in terms of potential. In fact, similar statements for PT times are just available for Mace Windu and Count Dooku. Just to give you an idea of what kind of invidual we are talking about.
Of course, Kun has impressed quite some people during his career. Some of them even, when he was dead for four-thousand years:
"Yavin 4, it turned out, had been the seat of power of a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, a fallen Jedi known as Exar Kun." - Corran Horn - I, Jedi.
"If Exar Kun could mask the attack on me in such a way that Luke could not feel it barely fifteen meters away, then he could have slain Gantoris and could still wreak more havoc here with impunity. We were up against something more powerful than I'd ever cared to imagine existing." - Corran Horn – I, Jedi.
Emphasis mine.
Even if we are dealing with the statements of a character here, they are still quite interesting. Because not only does Horn, a Jedi, mark Kun as a "formidable Dark Lord", he also mentions that Kun is beyond anything he ever imagined when it comes to power. A general praise for Exar Kun, that is confirmed by the Dark Side Sourcebook as well (p.77):
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So he goes from "promising Jedi apprentice to "formidable Sith Lord" and is coined as both "excellent student" and "master swordsman". The Official Star Wars Fact File goes even one step further, though:
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So Exar Kun is the "most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords". And even if you want to believe the argument put forth, that the "most powerful" has been "retconned" – that is certainly not the case, when it comes to the "most dangerous" part of the quote. And there is more than enough reason to assume, that this is a rather accurate description.
Overall Force Ability
Despite the fact, that Kun had less than a year in his role as dark side practicioner, he amassed some nice amount of knowledge in that brief period of time – and a nice amount of powers with that. A notice of that is made by Tionne:
"Though Kun had enormous power, it seems that the key" — Tionne tapped the side of her instrument with a glistening fingernail — "the key was that the other Jedi combined their might. They fought together as a unit where all the pieces fit together, as components in a much larger machine powered by the Force." - Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force
And when Tionne says "enormous power", that is probably a quite correct assertion of the kind of force energy, Kun was wielding, considering the brief observation of Aleema Keto, just after Ragnos has given the Dark Lord mantle to Exar Kun:
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Not only does she perceive an "astonishing transformation" in her lover, but sees the two Sith Lords ripple with dark-side energy. The only other being in the mythos described in this particular fashion is Vitiate – through the eyes of Revan. You may correct me there, if I'm wrong. It still means that Kun was handling quite a lot of personal force power. An idea confirmed by the observation of Oss Willum as well:
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Even in the midst of a battlefield, that Kun simply walks over unharmed by everything coming down around him, and surrounded by other powerful Force users, Oss Willum recognizes Kun as "immensily powerful". In fact, the narrator of the "Sith War" storyline, labels Kun nothing short of "the darkest power in the Galaxy":
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If one is inclined to ignore any kind of context – as some people here are inclined to do – we're talking about a Galaxy that contained Vitiate and his Sith Empire, the Star Forge, the Dark Reaper and even the Son and Abeloth. If we apply context, we would still end up with a Galaxy that housed multiple worlds coined by the Dark Side (e.g. Korriban, Ziost) and various organisations of Dark Siders that are all nothing compared to Kun's personal power.
And his fellow Jedi seemed to have had similar convictions, after Kun started the Sith War. In fact, the Jedi Order of the time saw Kun as such a major threat, that the combined order was send to take the Dark Lord down. Compare that to the four Jedi Masters send to confront Sidious. The latter himself remarks about a certain aspect of Kun's knowledge ("Jedi vs Sith – The Essential Guide to the Force", p.173-174):
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So Kun was equipped with Sadow's knowledge. The same knowledge that was either used by Sadow or Kun himself (Book of Sith, p.64) to construct the Dark Reaper, the device that drained the force energy of everything and shot dark side beams to cause destruction, which was used to depopulate entire planets during the Great Sith War and that was active in PT times. What was the comment on it? Ah, yes: "If Dooku restores the Reaper, it will mean the end of the Republic." - Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars video game
And Kun was, apparently, very busy using the knowledge given to him: "Kun was fixated in unleashing pure, unbridled power through ancient Sith means. He practiced Sith magic and alchemy, crafting horrific creatures on the moon of Yavin 4." - Star Wars Databank Link.
When it comes to utilizing the aforementioned knowledge, even Kun's spirit had some impressing stuff to offer, as it seems, given Kyp Durrons view on the issue:
"Exar Kun had shown him how to unleash great powers. Kyp did not trust the Sith Lord, but he could not deny the truth of what the shadow man taught. Kyp could see the power actually working." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
So even while Kyp doesn't trust the Sith Lord, he is impressed by the powers Kun had taught him to use. In fact, Kun's spirit is quite capable of actively boosting Kyp's abilities – and that by a fairly huge margin:
"Behind him Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
And that wasn't everything Exar Kun was capable of utilzing, when he was still alive ("Jedi Academy Sourcebook", p.50) :
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So not only does Kun have access to a variety of powers – aside from those he demonstrated. He also channeled some of them through Luke's students, instead of – as somebody has suggested here – capitalizing on their force energies. Furthermore does that statement proof that Kun's "disembodied will" was less powerful than his original body. That idea is likewise confirmed by the "Dark Side Sourcebook" (p.105):
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So contrary to the claims made in this thread so far, Kun's spirit did never even approach the power-levels of Exar Kun in his flesh, much less developing powers exceeding that of Exar Kun when he was alive. You may want to keep that in mind for the following...
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Offensive Force Powers
Unlike many other force users in the mythos, Exar Kun has demonstrated a variety of force abilities in direct confrontation or taught them to / exercised them through his pawns while in the shape of a spirit. First of all, there would be raw telekinesis. Kun is not only capable of ragdolling other Jedi without any effort:
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And as far as "ragdolling" goes, even his compareably powerless spirit was able to casually manhandle people with apparent ease:
"Kun flicked a finger at me, sending me whirling across the courtyard. I tried to gather the Force around me to protect myself, but the shock at my error kept me from it. I slammed into an obsidian wall and heard a bone in my right forearm crack. I clutched the limb to my chest, but Kun spun me again, smashing my flank into a low wall. Ribs crunched with that impact and I felt something inside go, as well. Kun was enjoying himself, probably for the first time in millennia, the very thought of which made me vomit. Kun's laughter echoed through his stronghold as he pitched me around, dancing me and rolling me back and forth across the courtyard. I thought his actions were haphazard, especially when he lifted me into the air, then dashed me down, shattering my left leg, but even through the pain I had a clarity of mind. He wanted me thinking, not dead, yet, and that made my stomach roll again. Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go." - Corran Horn – I,Jedi
He was also quite capable of force choking Odan-Urr to death, immediately after having been attacked with Sever Force / Wall of Light by one of the most proficient users of the aforementioned ability:
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And, really, he can also do it to a greater amount of numbers, should the need arise:
As his eyes adjusted, Streen saw that all twelve of the Jedi candidates were limned with the faintest sheen of an iridescent blue glow that grew brighter as the new Jedi converged around Exar Kun. "Even joined together, you are too weak to fight me!" the shadowy man said. Streen felt his throat constrict, his windpipe close. He choked, unable to breathe. The black silhouette turned, staring at those who resisted him. The Jedi trainees grasped their throats, straining to breathe, their faces darkening with the effort. - Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force
So even his rather powerless spirit has absolutely no problems with force choking twelve people at once. But telekinesis isn't the only thing Kun has up his sleeve: He casually blasts Aleema Keto across the room with an application of Sith Magic, rendering the Sith Witch unconscious for a nice amount of time [during which he dueled Ulic]:
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In his spirit form, he was capable of draining Gantoris, one of Luke's students, so thoroughly, that all which remained was a "crisped corpse" of the former Jedi apprentice:
"If you think that weapon will have any effect on me," Kun said, "perhaps you should ask your friend Gantoris — or have you forgotten what happened to him when he defied me?" A vision flashed through Streen's mind: Gantoris's crisped corpse incinerated from the inside out, his body turned to ash from the incredible fires of the dark side." - Jedi Academy: Champions of the Force.
Following Kun's words, his attack on Gantoris happened while the latter attempted to attack him with a lightsaber (the weapon mentioned above). That means Kun is probably capable of performing such attacks in combat, even though his most impressive application of the ability was his draining of the Massassi on Yavin 4. A feat, by the way, that has – up to this date – only been replicated or topped by the likes of Vitiate, Nihilus and – considering Byss – Sidious himself. However, the Sith Lord had more abilities that came in handy for direct confrontation:
"Kyp made a dismissive gesture with one hand, and a sudden wave of dark ripples splashed across the air like the shock front from a concussion grenade. Luke stumbled backward. The lightsaber turned cold in his hand. Frost crystals grew in feathery patterns around the handle. At the core of the brilliant green blade a shadow appeared, a black disease rotting away the purity of the beam. The humming blade sputtered, sounding like a sickly cough. The black taint rapidly grew stronger, swallowing up the green beam. With a fizzle of sparks Luke's lightsaber died." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
While it was Kyp using the ability, it was definitely Kun who taught him how to do that. This could come in quite handy, if one is inclined to combat opponents armed with lightsabers. Though what follows there would even be more fun:
"With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into
Luke's body. He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him - but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
Emphasis mine.
Again: The first ability used by Kyp is clearly something Kun did teach him. And then, the Dark Lord himself joins the fray to attack Luke with another variant of Sith magic and Luke utterly fails do defend himself, trying everything he had learned from no other than Yoda. And this, let me remind you, is post-DE Luke Skywalker who managed to outduel DE Sidious and – joined by his sister – managed to overcome the Sith Lord in direct confrontation. Here, he is chanceless, and not only because Kyp and Kun joined powers to defeat him, but because he is attacked with techniques he doesn't know any defense against. And this still not anything Exar Kun has to offer, given that he has his amulets for this fight. If I may remind you:
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So first off: Contrary to what has been claimed in this thread, Kun is not utilizing the power present within the temple. It's the "dark rage that fills his own heart" that is magnified by the amulet. Which is quite enough to create huge explosions of force energy (marked orange / red) that blow giants junks of debris out of the temple wall (marked green) and fling around / atomize Massassi warriors on the spot (marked yellow).
Of course, Exar Kun also had some less obvious means of utilizing Sith Magic. How about crowd-controlling a crowd that contained ten-thousands if not more than a hundred-thousand people with a silently executed Sith spell:
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So at this point, I do really wonder how Sidious, who had just been dishing out some force lightning and telekinesis until RotS, does compare to that arsenal of offensive force powers. Even assuming that he is "the most powerful Sith Lord ever", I still don't see him defending himself against Kun's usual force attacks, which were already impressive when coming from neophyteKyp Durron or Kun's powerless spirit. Much less do I see Sidious surviving amulet blasts that seem to be wide and powerful enough to level entire buildings.
Force Defense
In case you still think, that Sidious will even be capable of utilizing the force in a offensive fashion, you may want to check Kun's force defense. Being attacked with "the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side" (Odan-Urr, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, p.81), he merely recovers in split-seconds to kill his assailant:
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When Aleema Keto attacks him with deadly Sith Magic, he apparently just walks through the attack or instantly shrugs it off:
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Which may not be too impressive, unless one remembers, what Aleema was capable of doing with her force attacks:
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Instantly turning people into charred meat doesn't seem to be something to scoff at. Which is, coincidentally, exactly what Exar Kun seems to do when having a similar blast fired at him...
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Jul 24th, 2015 11:43 PM
