Bump. Was sitting here thinking about leaving it, but I'm bored and since you want to toss around insults that actually apply to you, I'll attack you where it hurts the most: your argument.
The source you provided is from an in-universe source, which you scold at, so why use it now? No, that wasn't just a burst of speed as shown in TPM, it was precise combat speed, in which Sidious hacked away at jedi masters and forced Mace on the defense until he was immersed in vapaad. As stated by the guy who did Palpatine's stunts in that fight, he's supposed to fight over 100 times faster than the jedi. I've shown you the video before. Not all force users can move that fast. Very few can keep up with Sidious in combat.
This just proves that you missed the point. Sorcery isn't any more effective in combat than TK and lightning, otherwise these all powerful ancient sith wouldn't fall back on them when they mattered most: combat.
Majority of your argument is hinging on the notion that Sidious and his opponents rely on TK and lightning. You're using this same notion to lowball Maul.
BTW, other than blasts and TK, what other offensive force powers did Kun use in combat? Don't bring up powers that he taught Kyp/used Kyp's strong reserves as the muscle in his attack on Luke.
No, because this is a combat situation, and you yourself said powers that are more useable in combat. It does show power, I won't dispute that, but hardly anything compared to the guy who nearly bent the force to his will, and blocking the future with his own shadowy hooded image from thousands of force users. Feats like these rarely do anything when going toe to toe against powerhouses, otherwise Yoda should have been snuffed out of existence.
And then you go on to prove that it's indeed true:
lmao
Might as well give Dooku the credit against Talzin and Maul.
It's a feat for Kyp, which is why the New Essential Guide credits the attack to his powers.
Wow.
Should I even waste anymore time replying, or highlight the most stupid parts of your arguments. Not sure which would hurt your ego more.
Both Maul and Savage can move around ships, destroy shielded droidekas with powerful TK waves (Savage has shattered a blaster bolt and lightsaber resistant mandalorian jail cell). Maul in particular can easily choke Kenobi with TK, while at the same fighting off other jedi. Basically, Maul can target and kill powerful jedi masters with precise TK. And of course Dooku has consistently proven capable of doing the same, even to the likes of Ventress who nearly killed a powerful jedi master capable of retaining her youth, by almost crushing her heart, while she [Ventress] was injured. Hell, Ventress plus two other nightsisters were overpowered by Dooku, who was drugged, blind and had his force senses diminished.
Yet Sidious can easily ragdoll Maul and Savage and the same time with the force, and kill Dooku from across the galaxy. See, Sidious's victims (Maul/Savage/Dooku) have owned powerful force users whom have solid feats.
And again, you're missing the point. Your argument is being based on aspects of the force that another force user would be unfamiliar to and thus defenseless against. That wouldn't just apply to sith magic.
That's probably why I used Sadow as an example, right? Are you not following? Sadow is a very powerful sorcerer, but in combat, he relied on what powers? The basics or his sorcery? Do you think that perhaps he used what he used because it's more effective in combat?
Kun is just more combat oriented than Sadow, and while he benefited from Naga's teachings, I don't see sorcery as being a major factor in vs matches, other than his blasts. Sith spells on fodder folk is impressive, but not happening against a peer of his, let alone his clear superior.
You're the one who can't even follow your own logic.
Ok, see your logic applies to nightsister magic. However, Talzin required prep for Dooku, and is just more powerful than him.
She's conjured physical objects out of thin air, can teleport, turn intangible, has mind control powers, summon fire, and her green mist can do almost anything. These powers have shown to happen instantly. She also possesses relics that can rip the life essence out of force users--a relic that was used by a cult that worshipped her. Her sorcery is pretty advanced, yet she was being overpowered by Sidious's basic powers.
Well Maul was slowly torturing Kenobi while fighting another jedi, but what's the point in having this discussion since TK is basic and is nothing compared to sorcery? Are you forgetting your argument or missing my point?
I've seen nothing to indicate that Kun is a better combatant than Sidious. You're the one who ignores sources and outright showings/clear depictions, and in a very desperate effort to lowball Sidious, you lose track of your own arguments. Yes, I ignore your claim that Kun beat Luke, when in fact, Kyp was the muscle behind the attack. I've given you a source which you ignored just to turn around and prove it right. You're wanting me to accept something out of it's proper context instead of moving on and providing something else that might be usable in these threads.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Yes. That's kind of the problem, isn't it?
If you don't trust Sidious words on his apprentice (why ever?) and question his words when he speaks about Maul to Plagueis (why ever...), why would you trust him that he honestly gave the title to Maul? After all, it happened like that:
"From this day forward, you are a Sith Lord. You have chosen the path of darkness, the path of power. You are Lord Maul. You are my instrument."
"Yes, Master."
"Your rage. You enjoyed it? You enjoyed wanting to kill me?"
"Yes."
"You will do well, Lord Maul."
-Sidious and Maul, Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Maul was declared "Lord" because he wanted to kill his master. It had nothing to do with his skills or knowledge in the force (being 17 years old at that point). It was merely his will. The same willpower that enabled him to survive Naboo.
Because those follow the actual sources. Before the tale of Plagueis was introduced to the canon, nobody needed to doubt Maul's title as legitimate Sith Lord.
There are so many answers why he couldn't do it. In the story, Sidious wanted to feat Maul's anger for the Jedi, so he made him part of the order the Jedi had "destroyed" before, by giving Maul that title. And Maul believed that it was his destiny to bring the Jedi down. From a perspective outside the story, Maul served as example to introduce tons of information regarding the Sith (e.g. the Rule of Two) that wouldn't have worked, if he had not been labeled a "Sith Lord".
Because we're not discussing status here, but abilities. And I was critcizing the act of handing Maul's status ("Sith Lord") in here, to make an argument from there, instead of having a look at Maul's abilities.
See above. Sidious had reason for giving Maul the title other than thinking he was "ready" for it in terms of abilities.
But the latter two still have accumulated feats and shown ambition beyond anything Maul has done. Dooku was, pretty much, controlling half of the Galaxy in his leading position among the Seperatists and demonstrated Force abilities beyond Maul. And Vader...was, apparently, actively plotting to get rid of Sidious (at least with his own son, possibly with Marek as well) and finally did the job - even if he did so only to save his son.
Maul, before being betrayed by his former master, has never exhibited anything like that. And when he does, he doesn't exactly act "smart", no matter how often people repeat he was a "scheming mastermind".
Were there many "real" Sith Lords around before the Rule of Two?
You may want to consider that the original "Dark Lord of the Sith" title was reserved for the ruler of the Sith Empire. So you had one at a time, that was the most powerful person around.
Then Exar Kun came around as the next holder of the title, and you may notice that only he was holding the title of "Sith Lord", while Ulic was given the role as "apprentice". In the Sith Empire, the "Darth" title was only "taken" by the most powerful of the "Lords" and after the downfall, the later Brotherhood of Darkness abandoned the title entirely, before Bane did revive it.
Does Maul fit into the line of beings that wore the title before him? Did he demonstrate the skills commonly ascociated with the term or the ambition to rule above others? Hardly. And even when he is called "Lord", he still remains the apprentice of Sidious.
This is pretty laughable, if you we consider the fact that Vader killed Sidious. And, as stated above, Vader and Dooku have demonstrated abilities far beyond that of Darth Maul and - in times - ambition to think and act without explicit "okay" from their master.
Yes. You got the point. Maul's status is irrelevant to the discussion. I was merely attacking it, because others handed in arguments that were "Sidious easily defeated a Sith Lord in combat!" One that he had trained, and trained to always be his inferior.
If Maul had a command of the Force that is to be expected from a true Sith Lord, he could have offered some defense. Hell. The RotJ novelization has Luke blocking Sidious lightning for a short amount of time, while Vader - who is especially vunerable against that form of attack - also manages to tank it in order to save his son's life. And Maul? Cowers on the ground and pleads for mercy. Seriously?
It has everything to do with the fact. Sidious didn't teach Maul that kind of abilities (or how to defend himself against them), because he always wanted to be in a position, in which he could easily get rid of him. Maul didn't "need" that knowledge either, because Jedi aren't using the Force in complex offensive fashion. It's basically TK only - exactly what Maul is utilizing himself.
I'd suggest to take a closer look at Maul's "feats":
Maul struggles with pulling the shuttle over the edge. He doesn't exactly lift it up and toss it around. The Force choking might seem impressive, but then, we've never seen somebody blocking the attack and I don't see reason to put Opress over Dooku and Ventress, just because he choked both of them at the same time.
Easily putting Opress in his place wasn't that much of a problem. After all: Opress hadn't formal training with a lightsaber, while Maul was an expert in several forms of martial arts - and he disarms his brother using that abilities. That Opress was capable on taking on Jedi before did own much to the fact that he did overpower them with brute strength (and outbursts of Force energy) and at times, the Jedi were clearly not willing to kill him (e.g. Obi-Wan and Anakin encountering him).
And where has Maul challenged Mace Windu? Apparently, I did miss something...
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
You're comparing apples to oranges, Gideon.
Maul was trained by a person who had clearly no intention of letting his apprentice become a true rival. Maul never expanded his knowledge beyond what his master gave him (which was tailored for a very specific set of tasks) and had no interest in acting against Sidious will prior to his near death on Naboo. Compare that to Ragnos, who did actually construct the aforementioned sceptre, that was capable of force draining places, fire beams of energy that leveled entire buildings and brought his spirit back from the netherworld of the Force in the first place. I'd say, we have much more to assume that Ragnos had a huge knowledge regarding the Dark Side of the Force than we have reason to assume that Maul had it. In fact, the variety of sources showing Maul in action coupled with a lack of impressive force feats from him, leads to the suggestion that he did not have this kind of knowledge.
And, pray tell, what does that tell us - aside from the fact, that it is not a part of the continuity and - hence - not canon at all?
What should have killed him exactly, Gideon? A lightsaber wound is instantly cauterized, so you won't die from bloodloss. That leaves two possible causes for death: Damage to vital organs (which tend to lie a little higher than the wound Maul received) and shock. And usually, it's the shock caused by such a wound that will kill most humans, but going through severe physical torture [which is what Maul did being punished by his master] would lead to a better control of that condition, enabling him to survive the ordeal.
Otherwise, I can just point to Sion once again, who survived deadly injuries just by holding on to his hatred. Hell. The same even goes for Darth Vader, who survives getting three of his limbs chopped off, getting his skin burned off and burning his lungs - which is beyond the damage Maul has taken. And that just hours after joining the Dark Side. That probably didn't have much to do with any sort of "training", which means, that Maul probably didn't need any special training either.
Again, I can just point you to Vader himself. That aside: I consider it rather unlikely, that Sidious would train Maul to survive such wounds, when he - explicitly - wanted an apprentice that he could easily dispose off, should the need arise to do so.
For starters: It is most certainly not a new dimension to the character.
In "Darth Maul: Saboteur", he quite sucessfully manipulates several factions against eachother to finally eliminate all of them. A strategy that included the altering of voice recordings to fabricate evidence, leaving false clues and so forth. He is clearly not "new" to the "scheming and manipulation business". Neither do I see a "dramatically expanded skillset". Even if the producers of the series call him a "scheming mastermind", I don't see much masterful scheming from him anywhere. He just picks some - relatively powerless factions - out of a universe filled with organisations and allies them for a very brief time-period. Without archiving much but temporary control over Mandalore.
If he would demonstrate anything to bolster his status as "scheming mastermind", that would be great. So far, I've seen nothing from him that he couldn't have learned by just paying attention to the missions Sidious sent him to.
I find your attempt to mix up various claims without backup rather funny.
First: Yes. Plagueis observed holorecordings of Maul, but those were rather long, given that he and Sidious have quite much time to discuss the Zabrak. And Plagueis notes - from the recording - that Sidious let Maul think, that he was Maul skilled than it was actually the case. So I don't know how much some statements in sourcebooks - following the original sources - are worth in the light of that revelation. And Maul was described as one of the deadliest Sith Lords in history? All things considered, pretty much all other Sith Lords known were more deadly than him.
Second: I, again, don't see where you perceive "cosinderable dimension of strategy" in Maul's "plans". They are, all things considered, quite simple and - ultimately - pretty much every single one of them utterly fails.
Last: Now it was definitely Maul's Sith training that allowed him to survive the bisection and his exile? Having no proof for that and merely speculating - against all evidence - you now think, that this is a fact already?
Yes. And Sidious proclaims multiple times that this wasn't the case. I'd take Sidious own words on his own plans regarding Maul over Maul's thoughts on them any given day. In case you don't remember:
"Maul had but one reason for being: to exact vengeance against the Jedi Order for the decimation of the Sith ranks. Oh, how he dreamd of burning that Jedi Temple to the ground. I know, for I gave him that dream repeatedly.[...]Ulitimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool, and despite his sense of purpose he never realized that it was not his destiny to raze the Jedi Temple." - Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force, p.169.
So Sidious manipulated Maul into thinking, there were any "bigger plans" for him, but that was - obviously - never the case. Don't see much reason to argue that. Do you, honestly?
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Since Maul did show neither desire, I don't see what you want to argue.
I don't see much reason for Dooku insulting Maul in his thoughts. Dooku was obviously capable of judging the skill of individuals, even if he did detest them, quite accurately. And in this case, he mainly saw what everyone else has seen so far of Maul: That the guy was very skilled when it came to direct confrontation, but lacked the skills commonly associated with real Sith Lords.
Again: Feats and accolades? Maul does nothing but owning people with a lightsaber and applying some TK here and there. Where are his impressive feats and accolades. As a Sith Lord, he is about as impressive as "Darth" Bandon, with just more sources to describe his actions. Yet "more" doesn't mean "better", and if we take a look at all known Sith, Maul most certainly doesn't make it into the top ranks. So how is defeating him a demonstration of Sidious' strength? Essentially, he still defeats a guy that has learned everything from him and that he trained in a fashion, that enabled him to easily get rid of Maul. I've still not seen anything to contradict that observation, which makes me wonder, why you don't just concede the point.
My argument hinges on the fact, that, despite the multitudes of sources, that actually show Maul in action, he still hasn't managed to perform anything that could be called "impressive" - with exception of defeating Qui-Gon. In which Maul had the advantage of an unbalanced force and a weapon Qui-Gon was unfamiliar with in his hands. Both disadvantages that Sidious didn't have to face when confronting his former apprentice.
It were probably two of them, and one was just watching the show for fun, while the second let Sidious escape, because of viewing that feeble mortal as the nuisance not worth the trouble.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
I'd say his stomping of Opress was much more impressive than his defeat of Qui-Gon given some of Opress's own wins.
As for his defeat of Qui-Gon, let's not forget he was actually a pretty even match for TPM Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan combined. And that was TPM Maul. TCW Maul is apparently > TPM Maul.
Opress without the aid of "Force Waves" has defeated Ventress and Plo Koon. He defeated Adi Gallia with a Force Wave, but she didn't seem like she was doing too well before the Force Wave (see look on her face when she failed to effect Opress at all with a kick to the knee).
So I think it's safe to put Maul solidly above Opress/Ventress and therefore naturally all the Jedi Council members Opress and Ventress have defeated. And of course solidly above Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara.
Are you being sarcastic because it was a short skirmish, or have you not read Son of Dathomir?
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Coming from you, that made me smile.
It would be helpful to point out what source you are referring to exactly...? The Essential Guide to the Force labeling the technique "common" for Jedi?
I don't see much difference between the burst of speed we see in TPM, and doing the same "in combat". I've also quoted the instance from the the Essential Guide to the Force where Luke Skywalker describes his "in combat" experience with the technique against a superhuman opponent. Which was, I may add once again, a completely unintentional use of the ability.
And I don't give a damn about what the guy who did Sidious stunts thinks. What counts is the canon sourcematerial. In which Ulic Qel-Droma seems to move faster than Sidious, Luke Skywalker (in times between ESB and ROTJ) seems to move faster than Sidious and in which force speed to an extend where people using it seem to "vanish from the spot" is a common ability.
If you have nothing to contradict the source material except your opinion, which appears to be the case, you may just want to concede the point.
Erm. First off: I didn't say it was "more effective" in combat. I merely noticed that it offers a greater variety of force attacks and it's probably harder to defend against (see Luke getting attacked) than "normal" force attacks (against which Luke has put up sucessful defense in the past).
And did it ever occur to you, that all those masters of Sith Magic probably also had means to defend themselves against it, hence using it against eachother could be pretty much futile. Especially when talking about Ludo Kressh, who created a gauntlet for his son, that rendered the wearer pretty much untouchable to all forms of damage (even been shown to negate direct hits from orbital bombardment, when worn by Haazen). There is probably a reason why individuals like Ragnos and Simus didn't fight for the Dark Lord title in some sort of "wizard duel" but sorted it out with their swords. The same goes for Kressh and Sadow.
Actually, my argument is, that Kun has offensive abilities up his sleeve that Sidious might not be able to counter, while demonstrating a force defense that blocked "the most devastating" light-side technique there is.
Erm. Why would I not use the stuff Kun did teach to Kyp or used on his own against Luke Skywalker? Because you don't like it? I'm sorry, but your personal taste doesn't count here. The abilities Kun used and taught to Kyp are clearly useable by his person in the flesh as well.
Kun did execute the spell while walking into the Senate building and without anybody noticing anything before the effect kicked in. If he is capable of executing Sith magic on that level at that speed, this may be very well applicable in combat.
And I love how you hand in hyperbole in favor for Sidious. The guy managed to unbalance the Force together with his master with the Force itself not putting up any defense agains the manipulation of the two Sith Lords, probably, because what happened was the Will of the Force. That's like utilizing instances of extreme force attunement (e.g. "Oneness") to judge the abilities of a character archiving them...
I'm not certain if you are incapable of reading, fail to understand the written text or just playing stupid once again. Just for you once more:
"With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into
Luke's body. He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him - but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly." - Jedi Academy: Dark Apprentice
Emphasis mine. Kun attacks Luke with an ability different from what Kyp used against Luke, which is the cause for Luke being overpowered. Fact. And Kyp was still using abilities taught to him by Kun. Fact. And we're still dealing with Kun's "powerless spirit" here, who's power Kyp himself perceived as much more focused (probably even greater) than his own, when Kun assissted in the the retrieving of the Sun Crusher. Fact.
So. You were saying?
Since you seem incapable of countering the argument, you probably shouldn't waste your time with attempting to come up with something remotely resembling an intelligible reply. So far, I'm just reading "UGAH UGAH UGAH UGAH" between the lines of text you produce with "Hit me in the face" as subtext.
And the notion of you hurting my ego is absolutely hilarious.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Oh. This is all soooo impressive. It would even be more impressive, if we'd seen a single instance, in which somebody managed to put up a successful defense against an attack based on telekinesis. Nobody has ever blocked a force push or "resisted" a force choke. Even Sidious himself has his ass shoved over his desk, when Yoda does attack him with a force push. So I find it rather absurd to compare characters based on "X owned Y with TK". It obviously doesn't make sense. Or do you want to admit, that Yoda is more powerful than Sidious ("He force pushed him!!!"). Or maybe Opress is more powerful than Ventress and Dooku combined ("He choked them at the same time!!!").
Did that reply make any sense in your own world, because it certainly didn't in mine...
Are you not following? Sadow was confronted with his equal in terms of Sith Alchemy / Magic. You remember? Ludo Kressh, who was capable of constructing an amulet that rendered its wearer untouchable (to damage from the outside). So it was logical for him not to challenge him in some sort of "wizard duel" and it was just as logical to him, not try to attempt Sith Magic against somebody who was probably capable of countering its effects. That hasn't much to do with the effectivity of Sith magic in combat in general but more with the possibile effectivity in that particular situation.
I may point you once more to Freedon Nadd who conquered Onderon with nothing but Sith Magic as a one-man-army, defeating an army of beast riders (read: armed guys riding on freaking drexls) on his own in the process. The same Nadd that learned everything from Sadow and gave everything to Kun. You may want to reconsider your thoughts regarding the effectivity of magic in combat...
Can I just point you again to the abilities Kun and Kyp utilized against Luke, which were clear applications of Sith Magic in combat? Oh. Yes. You wanted to ignore those, because they don't help your side of the argument. And since nobody here has established Sidious as Kun's "clear equal" or "superior", I don't see why we should assume that he is.
I'm starting to seriously doubt your mental faculties.
Yes. My logic applies to nightsister magic, which is fundamentally different from Sith Magic with the latter being much more potent and powerful. The "green stuff" that Talzin uses for pretty much everything she does is called "spirit ichor", and in the believes of the Nightsisters, it represents the powers of the spirit of their ancestors as well as the "life force" of Darthomir. "Sith Magic" makes use of the force and, while at times resorting to rituals, it is very much applicable in combat - as Kun demonstrated. I still don't see any kind of "argument" on your side, since you're basically attempted to compare apples to oranges first and now you're just attempting to elaborate on that already senseless argument.
It doesn't matter how "advanced" Talzin's magic appears to you. Her powers and abilities - especially those demonstrated in combat - don't even register to the stunts that were pulled of using Sith Magic, by Kun and other individuals. The most impressive thing she has done in combat was damaging the stone structure she was fighting Mace on (the Gates of Infinity?) with some magic blast - that was easily dodged by Mace. Yet, she still managed to take on Sidious for a rather extended period of time, even when Dooku entered the "wizard battle" on the side of his master.
Apparently, you don't see my point. I never said that TK is nothing compared to magic. I merely said that there are countermeasures to telekinesis (even though only after the effect has kicked in - as it seems), while some instances of Sith magic have not been countered and that Sadow had a reason to use TK instead of magic. But then, we're discussing Sidious vs. Kun here and not Sith magic vs. TK, aren't we?
Confirmation bias is a tough thing to fight, huh?
I've brought more sources to the table than anybody else in this thread and have cleary made statements regarding the ones that were brought in by my opponents. Apparently, you're the only person here that can't keep track of the arguments, since nobody has gone through the effort of refuting mine (including yourself). In fact, this "debate" is now happening on a sidetrack, where we discuss Maul's nature as a Sith Lord and the nature of Talzin's magic compared to Sith Magic, rather than the actual fight present in the thread title.
Urm. Apparently, we are back to strawmanning, aren't we?
I didn't claim that "Kun beat Luke". I stated - and provided proof for it - that Kun did launch an attack on Luke on his own and that he taught Kyp everything that he used against Luke. I don't see your problem with those facts, except that they don't fit into your personal view of what happened. Which isn't my problem. Maybe you should read more of the actual source material instead of relying on quotes from some sourcebooks, usually fed to you by Gideon. This could be a first step to learning how to think for yourself.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Shhhh.
@Darth Thor
Opress, when meeting Maul, is pretty much a neophyte in both force powers and lightsaber handling. His "wins" are solely based on instances where he lost his temper and unlocked more of his potential through the dark side. Or he faced opponents that didn't even try to engage him in anything but physical confrontation. Which is pretty obvious from the fact that Maul can disarm him that easily.
Maul is almost completely in the defense until he manages to seperate the two Jedi. He even gives ground against Qui-Gon alone the entire time, until their final exchange of blows. I don't want to imply that Qui-Gon was his superior, because that was probably a tactical decission by Maul, yet, he didn't exactly "own" the Jedi duo in combat.
And TCW Maul > TPM Maul? I find that notion rather absurd. When Anakin loses two legs and his skin, he suddenly lost a nice amount of his actual force potential. When Maul loses half of his body he becomes more powerful? Even accepting the idea that his ordeal made him stronger in the Dark Side, it would be against everything we know to assume, that his injuries didn't cost him potential...
That reasoning is, was and will ever be faulty.
We've seen, that Ventress and Kenobi match pretty evenly. We've seen Maul matching Kenobi alone rather evenly the same. We've even seen Kenobi taking on the two Nightbrothers, disarming (literally) Opress, before Maul managed to get rid of him in a fit of rage that he put into a force push. So A > B > C arguments still don't work.
Realistically Maul may be slightly above Kenobi, who in turn is one tier below Anakin and Dooku, who in turn are below the likes of Yoda, Mace or Sidious. And this is just talking about overall combat ability. If we consider force powers, Maul is leagues below the "top dogs", no matter how often he is heralded as "deadliest" or "most efficiently trained" Sith apprentice. And that was, kind of, my point here: Sidious being able to own Maul with the force isn't really impressive.
That was sarcasm. I see a rather big difference between "challenging" someone and exchanging one single blow with the person in question. Even being generous, their fight couldn't have lasted longer than 30 seconds.
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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
I have to say Nai, taking such an unwinnable stance and yet owning the debate regardless is highly impressive. You've made the strongest Sith > Sidious argument I have seen since starwars.com had a reputable discussion area.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
I don't remember him losing his temper against Ventress or Adi Gallia personally. Not even sure he lost his temper against Plo Koon tbh. So those are pretty consistent performances.
His abilities mainly come from his Nightsister Amp, which gives him immense physical attributes, and seems to have given him a good Force Push/Wave.
In terms of his fighting ability he's obviously good enough to clash blades with the likes of Ventress, Kenobi and other Council Members.
So I'd say it's only elite people like Dooku or Maul who can disarm and defeat him in seconds.
Well I'm not sure if you call defending against 2 attackers while looking for openings for physical attacks (and finding them) as being "almost completely" on the defensive.
He wasn't giving ground for most the fight (he was for a small portion) but was voluntarily moving back. As seen when he kicks Qui-Gon on the floor, then moves back doing a cartwheel towards the door when facing Kenobi alone.
Against Qui-Gon alone he did seem to be giving ground, but I'm guessing he was still recovering from falling 2 stories and landing on his back.
No he certainly didn't "own" the Jedi duo, and I never claimed he did. I'm claiming he was pretty evenly matched against the Jedi duo, and it was a fight that really could have gone either way.
Well that's according to Shadow Conspiracy, which I find Odd as well tbh. But according to the new Canon Vader has become more powerful in the Force after suffering his injuries on Mustafar (that's according to Vader himself anyway in Lords of the Sith).
Not sure about that. He defeated her pretty solidly in TCW Movie (even gave the impression he was holding back on her: "You'll have to do better than that my darling").
She knocked him out quite fast in "Nightsisters" while fighting off Skywalker. But not only was she clearly Rage enhanced, but Kenobi clearly had the worse crash just prior to that fight. Then afterwards when he got back up (after being KO'd), it was him who disarmed her of both weapons, not Anakin.
So I do feel as though Kenobi > Ventress/Opress, and that Ventress/Opress are probably in the same tier overall. That is a tier below Kenobi/Maul.
True, but the more fights we see the better impression we get of their overall standing against each other. Determine things like, whose faster, whose stronger, whose more skilled in fencing, whose more skilled as an all out combatant, whose more powerful in TK/Lightning e.t.c.
Sounds reasonable. Although I feel Mace would only be slightly above Anakin/Dooku. And that Dooku could/would probably stalemate him (like you said A>B>C isn't that straightforward).
And this makes my point clear. That it's "Only" Sidious/Yoda level who could instantly own Maul like that.
Windu clearly can not. So I doubt Dooku can either (it took Dooku 10-15 seconds before he could Force slam Ventress in a 1 v 1). And those (Mace/Dooku) are the next two most powerful force users after Yoda/Sidious.
So it does say more about how Powerful Yoda/Sidious are, than it does about how Weak Maul is IMO.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 24th, 2015 at 10:58 AM
You start out strong, and the more you keep going you self destruct. I don't even have to debate just point out your mistakes.
IIRC, that same source states that jedi aren't telepaths and that they merely feel emotions, which is certainly not the case in well...a lot of cases.
Yes if you don't mind, or page number at least. I'm pretty sure I still have that book here somewhere boxed up.
Bursts of speed as seen in TPM are used to cover a long distance in short time, not do a handful of moves, and keeping pace. Sidious is consistent with his speed. His equal, Yoda, replicated it in a defensive fashion against Koon, Tiin and [Mundi?]. I mean, do I need to give you a list of Sidious speed feats that are consistent with his take down of the B-Team.
I do since he was merely doing his best to depict what he was instructed to in the highest form of canon. Otherwise he didn't even know his character used a lightsaber until he was given an overview on his character's abilities. No reason for him to lie. This is all basically what Lucas wanted, and goes hand in hand with Lucas' statement regarding the B-Team being taking out so easily, this indicating it was just within Palpatine's ability to do it, no an unintentional display of force usage: speed.
You may want to list those then. Kun was a spirit--invulnerable to lightsaber attacks--and was using Luke's friend/student as the muscle. Can Kun do this whole, mid-combat against his superior? And what I mean by superior is someone whose connection to the force is much stronger than his, connection and power in the force that is usually measured in basic TK.
And did it ever occur to you, that all those masters of Sith Magic probably also had means to defend themselves against it, hence using it against eachother could be pretty much futile. Especially when talking about Ludo Kressh, who created a gauntlet for his son, that rendered the wearer pretty much untouchable to all forms of damage (even been shown to negate direct hits from orbital bombardment, when worn by Haazen).[/b][/quote]
All attacks except bricks? Hopefully you see where I'm going with this, because that wasn't a good example of a defense against just magic.
Probably huh?
Well you do realize that force powers of any kind can be blunted out if one force user is much stronger than the attacker, or even on par? That doesn't only apply to magic/sorcery, it's the same with TK, but in a duel those were the powers used by even powerful sorcerers, not magic.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying sorcery can't be an advantage in some cases. Kun has his blasts, but lightning can produce similar effects against force users. Even some forms of TK attacks can out right produce similar effects as explosives. Mace, for instance, used a casual force wave that rendered a squad of destroyer droids into pieces of scrap, Maul and Savage have done the same against droids that were shielded.
I said majority of your argument, and it's a notion I'm not seeing backed up properly.
What powers? Zannah made use of dark side tendrils that can literally disintegrate body parts, but only made use of them by using outside powers to aid her in forming them, whereas Kun used an already powerful force user to start the attack, and then he joined in once Luke was down and defeated.
As for this "most devastating light side technique there is," with the exception of TK, or more so how it's used, light siders usually don't have devastating abilities. Furthermore, lightning is one of the most deadliest and devastating offensive force attacks, yet Maul tanked a prolonged attack and then proceeded to walk through it like nothing. I think Beni has addressed this point. Kun was just more powerful than the user of the ability, which is why it failed.
1) Dark side nexus
2) Luke was blasted by lightning before Kyp, and then Kun, used the ability on him.
3) The feat was performed by a force user whose raw power was once thought to be greater than Luke's own. The stronger you are in the force, the more effective any force power is. In this case, not only was it an amped Kyp, but also Kun who was adding more power to the attack.
4) Sidious is a sorcerer, and was handed down knowledge from Plagueis, which would more than likely include dark side tendrils.
Double standard much. I am hurting your ego when you have to resort to this just to win, which is pretty much the case in every debate we have. There's another one coming up too, and I'm calling you out on it.
What defense did these non-force using fodder folk put up? Being unaware isn't exactly helping your case, especially not in the context of a duel.
Hyperbole because you don't agree, eh? It happened, and the force did strike back in the form of Anakin, with Sidious being the direct target, indicating Sidious was the greater threat to the force. The force also just didn't let them assert control in their favor, which is why it took months of meditation to finally win their tug o war match with the force. You're also forgetting that not only did Sidious maintain that control long after Plagueis's demise, but also tightened his grip over it. The AOTC comic also shows a shadowy image of Sidious when Yoda tried to perceive the future. Thousands of jedi couldn't even break through the fog Sidious placed over them, greatly limiting their ability to farsight. Kun's feat on the senate doesn't come close in scale. Not that it matters; neither is combat applicable in combat against powerful force users. See I can admit that despite my bias, whereas your bias won't allow you to accept one feat, but you do another. Don't bring up bias, it makes you look silly and confirms your own bias against Sidious. If not, then you must think that later incarnation of Sidious can mind rape Kun, because he did so to a planet with a population two times greater than our own. After all, at least Sidious has done so against force users.
You should question your own reading comprehension.
The text makes it very clear that Kyp attacked Luke with two different attacks, with Kun joining in the moment Luke attempted to strike back. Luke also held back in fear of tapping into his anger. Yoda didn't even prepare Luke for force lightning, so that also doesn't say much. What defenses did Luke use, some healing abilities?
Kun wasn't powerless otherwise he wouldn't be able to add to the attack. Hyperbole! lol
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
TK attack have been defended against numerous times. Force auras are used for direct TK application. Are you new to SW. The fact that Savage had to go berserk to force choke both Dooku and Ventress at the same time and strain to maintain his grip, would suggest that it's not easily performed unless there is a vast power gap. Another example is Ventress, who also had to go berserk in order to choke Kenobi and Skywalker and scream and grunt, just as Savage did, indicating immense exertion, whereas Sidious casually chokes Dooku from across the stars, and easily pin Maul and Savage to the wall, while cackling. Could this be because Sidious just hold tremendous power over them even in an area they excel in. And no Sidious didn't build Maul to be weak to his own TK. TK is TK. Sidious is just vastly more powerful than him despite Maul's own feats of owning jedi masters with it, moving ships around, and collapsing cave ceilings and tunnels.
Sith. Magic. Not. Only. An. Aspect. Of. The. Force. In. Which. Another. Wouldn't. Have. A. Defense. Against.
Hopefully the periods will help you to read it slow to better understand. I can make the claim that Talzin can defeat just about anyone due to the fact that she has powers that aren't sith or jedi based. That's the logic you're using regarding sith magic.
I know English isn't your first language but nothing I said was hard to grasp. Or perhaps you're not understanding my point, which would explain your arguments.
Nah, you're just being desperate and probably questioning your own. I can tell your having a hard time, and getting tangled up in your own arguments. You're too competitive, but also a sore loser.
Uhhh, ok.
Anywho, if your logic applies to night sister magic, why dismiss my point about Talzin? And why keep on with the apples and oranges? You're not making much sense. I've listed magic Talzin can pull off instantly, which also includes magical shields that can withstand firepower from armies. Doesn't matter that her magic comes from the life force of Dathomir, because that's where Sidious battled her and was overpowering her with his basic powers. BTW, Talzin has shown abilities such as teleportation and conjuring physical objects from thin air even while off world.
You sure aren't following. That they are different in title (Sith magic/nightsister magic) doesn't separate the logic you're using in order to create a case for Kun winning.
Dooku was weakened and drained by Talzin prior, meanwhile Talzin was getting amped by Maul's life force right when her powers were being pushed towards her, being overpowered by Sidious's own power. Dooku entered right after, then we see her on her knees only focusing on a defense. And this was Talzin in the heart of her power. She wasn't pulling bunnies out her ass or setting Sidious's heart on fire with the wave of her hand or cutting his testicles off by conjuring a sword through them, despite being a potent sorceress.
My point is, despite displaying a larger range of abilities than Sidious has shown by that point, she was proven to be his inferior in combat, which pretty much debunks your argument for Kun to win. I can more easily say Sidious choke Kun out with the force. What would be your counter argument?
Is this a contest of who of who has more sources? Work on putting those sources in better perspective in vs matches. At least you can't accuse me of ignoring those sources, because I haven't.
I have pretty easily. You're just unable to follow, and run off on tangents.
I wasn't involved in that, but don't make a claim and then not expect to be corrected on it if you're wrong. Who told you to start that debate?
Examples are used to refute points, and I used her as a way to turn your logic against you. If you were following you'd know.
Then why mention it as a feat for Kun. He merely added power to an attack on a weakened Luke, who was attacked with lightning before hand. The sorcery didn't even happen instantly, lightning was used first, then they started using tendrils after Luke was down and weak. How on earth would that apply on Sidious. Tell me when you're going to provide me what I'm asking you? No need to get mad.
Lol, now it's Gideon thinking for me, not me just being a Sidious fanboy, as shown by my username?
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Opress appears to be in a constant fit of rage regardless of whom he fights. He just goes into berserk mode, swings his lightsaber around, doing some Force Waves here and there until he's done and that's it.
Yes. And those physical attributes usually make him "win" fights - like battering aside opponents like Kenobi or Skywalker.
Hardly.
Despite of his physical power, Opress lacks finesse. There is a reason why Kenobi can cut his arm off while fending of Maul at the same time. When not running around and swinging his blade at opponents with his phyiscal strength brought into the equation, Opress is clumsy with the blade at best (demonstrated by Kenobi and Dooku alike, as well as Maul). And he is vunerable against Force attack, which doesn't matter against Jedi but most certainly mattered when he had to fight Sidious.
Those "attackers", mind you, were Jedi. There is the fundamental fact, that people tend to forget here, that Jedi are rarely willing to kill an opponent, if they can avoid it. And that singular fact alters the entire way of conducting fights. If you aren't exactly willing to hurt / kill an opponent, you will fight much different from a situation in which you want to do that or at least easily accept injuries of your opposition as a possible outcome of a fight.
That being said, I don't think that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon weren't going "all out" on Maul, much like Anakin and Obi-Wan don't go "all out" on their first confrontation with Opress. Neither does Maul operate with his full capacities in this first moments of the fight. He gives ground out of tactical considerations, yes. Yet, Qui-Gon appears to be the superior duellist in that opening stages of the fight, pretty much until the point where he confronts the Sith Lord inside the sealed chamber. And we've seen that - unleashing his anger - Padawan!Kenobi became a serious threat for Maul on his own.
Well. To be fair. Vader is probably at his peak during his raid on the Jedi Temple and his fight with Dooku in RotS. Post RotS Vader certainly has more control about his abilities, because he can control his dark emotions better than before. Yet, I don't see much reason to assume that Maul has gained a similar advantage because of controlling his abilities.
When talking about "tiers", I imagine people between who fights could go either way. Unfortunatelly, their showings aren't really that consistant. From Opress' performance before meeting his brother, one would expect that he could take people like Kenobi on his own, but then again, he is shown not to be capable of doing so. And Maul himself didn't look too good when fighting Pre Vizla.
Again, the inconsitence of the power-levels those characters exhibit make such judgements rather hard.
Might be the case.
Well.
The problem with that notion is, that Maul doesn't face anybody but Sidious, that would attack him with the Force in a straightforward way. I would have liked a real confrontation between him and Dooku for example.
Well. That Windu can't disarm Maul in a lightsaber fight in ten seconds doesn't mean much - neither could Sidious. Mace never attacked Maul with the Force. In fact, nobody but Sidious does. But given how Sidious owns Maul, it doesn't make the latter look better in the Force than Ventress was looking against Yoda.
The original point was, that Maul doesn't exhibit a particular impressive strength in the Force - not that he is outright weak with it. I was aiming for "untrained" when it came to more refined abilities and more creative use of the powers the Force granted to him.
__________________
"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Aug 12th, 2015 08:30 PM
