Mace is more skilled with the blade but I think Kun would defeat him due to his edge in the force.
Because Mace performed better than he normally would against Sidious and Sidious didn't choose to use force powers and let Anakin do the job so that he can fall to the dark side. The Mace that Sidious fought was greatly amped by his vaapad+state of mind. Kun would surely lose to that Mace.
Exar Kun has great knowledge in the force but so does Sidious and Kun can't keep up with his superior raw power. Kun is Vader level when it comes to raw power. And dueling wise, Sidious has much better feats both skill and speed wise.
Sidious ironically tends to enjoy lightsaber duels and Kun himself prefers to duel his opponents as well so this would probably start off with a lightsaber duel where Sidious would overwhelm and kill Kun. If Kun desperately tries to prevent his fall with force attacks, Sidious would one more time overwhelm him with his raw power. So Kun has no advantages to exploit here and therefor his defeat is inevitable.
I see your reasoning. Don’t get me wrong I am not saying that Sidious cannot win or won’t, I just don’t see the battle being as one sided as you do.
When you say overwhelm someone with raw power, I think of Anakin’s battle against Dooku or Sidious vs Maul and his brother. If this was DE Sidious, I could agree with that assessment. I can’t with ROTS Sidious for the following reasons:
• Anakin’s force reserves far outweighs that of Sidious. Anakin has the ability to overpower anyone due to his raw power if tap into the way he did in his fight with Dooku. I do not see the gap in power between Sidious and Kun that significant that Kun would be overwhelm.
• I have Kun above the Maul brothers by a good margin.
As of ROTS, Sidious to me has always been more of a politician then that of a warrior. The same for Yoda and Mace. Sidious is not going to be facing one of his students who he taught or another politician, he is facing a warrior who lived in a time where you didn’t succeed your master by killing them in their sleep. Kun’s combat experience against other force users vastly outweighs Sidious.
So, I agree if Sidious raw power can overwhelm Kun then he loses, otherwise I see the fight going something like Tyson vs Holyfied. Yes, Tyson was faster and more powerful but not enough to overwhelm Holyfield, so experience, strategy and skill won the day for Holyfield and can also for Kun.
The argument that Sheev-the-politician is somehow at a disadvantage next to Kun-the-warrior is asinine. Banite Sith had to wear many hats due to their small number, and wear them well. They're polymaths. We're told repeatedly that Sidious actually "welcomes combat" when circumstances dictate that he dirty his hands. The fact that he doesn't solve all his problems with a lightsaber and a Force choke just means he's not an idiot, not that he can't swing said weapon with the best of them.
Last edited by The_Tempest on Jul 16th, 2015 at 02:54 PM
Dude, when did I ever say Kun was on Sidious level? If being on the same level from your viewpoint is whats required to make a fight two sided then you be wrong.
There is also no need to continue this conversation if that your stance.
Also for the 100 time, I stated I didn't want to repeat feats already known and mentioned. Read one of Nai's post if you want a list of feats.
Otherwise you don't agree that Kun has a chance and I don't agree that Kun would be overwhelmed as you say.
Actually its not. Kun's attributes as a warrior and experience clearly gives him an advantage that can compensate for a force user who may be more powerful and faster but lacks true combat experience.
Please tell me what is so asinine about that statement?
The notion that Sheev is without combat experience is false. The notion that Kun has more has yet to be proven as is the idea that Kun's experience somehow means more than Sheev's.
Not to mention that Sheev has spanked Jedi and Sith who are "warriors" by trade and who may have more "day to day" experience than he.
You saying it doesn't make it true. What is with the reading here? When did I say that Sidious is without combat experience? I only stated that Kun has more. Since that is to be proven then that is what I will try to do. If I can't I will concede.
How are Jedi and Sith warriors by trade? A person who practices marital arts isn't a fighter by trade.
I will post later on why I stated Kun's has more combat experience.
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Considering Sidious is older than Kun he naturally has more overall experience. In terms of training Palptine is at a disadvantage as his master was dedicated to force powers more than martial ability however look at the factors put into everything. Plagueis is still comfirmed as a master duelist and he trained Palptine and also Palptine Had some of his own personal training. Also look at maul. While he isn't the best swordsman he is still a notable warrior and who was his master. Didn't Dooku and Sidious battle and Sidious won.
The Rule of Two has passed down 1000 years worth of knowledge form Bane to Sidious that includes everything from every era of Sith that they could find and Kun was no doubt apart of that. Palpatine has also studied every aspect of Jedi fighting and knows every form of combat and has shown that he can match up,against the best of all time. Kun is really a master of one style. With that Sidious is defintly more versatile than Kun and due to his greater overall experience this would help him more.
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I merely deduced that from the wording of the quote, coming from Nebaris, another of the regulars here at that particular time. A click on the next page of the thread reveals that he is referring to the quote from the Complete Visual Dictionary, though.
Chee doesn't inquire further. He gives examples why "most powerful" is always a debateable term. And if you are looking through the site, you will find a similar question asked regarding Marka Ragnos. To which one poster replies:
"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters."
And that is commented by Chee with:
"Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes."
Following that up on the next page with:
"I think debates are healthy and fun[...], so don't expect me to resolve anything here."
He doesn't want a specific ranking of characters and outride states there isn't one, as far as LFL is concerned.
Can we? I don't think so.
You see: Almost all sources with the respective accolades for Sidious are written from the perspective of persons who see Palpatine as a historic figure. As such, they'll always have the sum of his archivements in mind, rather than a limited part of it (e.g. force powers) and descriptions will be made accordingly.
Despite the many quotes in that regard, that were posted here, I've still not seen a single one that clearly states Sidious is the greatest force user in the ranks of the Sith Lords. And, apparently, this is the case, because the people responsible for the continuity at LFL (read: Leland Chee) don't want to hand out "power charts" or "absolutes" regarding that topic, as is quite clear from the quotes of Chee posted above.
Yet, even if we should accept the idea as true, that Sidious is "the most powerful", we neither have an idea how far the gap between him and others is. (0.1 %? 10 %? 200 %?), nor does that mean, that he can defeat any other Sith Lord in combat. But the latter seems to be the assumption of all people arguing in Sidious' favor here.
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That made me laugh.
The unbalancing of the Force was dependent on nobody. It was neither caused nor sustained solely by any of the Sith Lords.
"The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one's intentions. It will engineer misfortune. It will strike back.[...]The Jedi have lost the allegiance of the Force. Yes, their ability to draw energy from the Force continues, but their ability to use the Force has diminished. Each of their actions engenders an opposite, often unrecognized consequence that elevates those attuned to the dark side; that buoys the efforts of the Sith and increases our power. - Darth Plagueis, James Luceno: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 21.
Emphasis mine. Apparently, the Force itself worked against the Jedi and for the Sith for whatever reason. That had nothing to do with the power of either of those two Sith Lords, but with the actions of the Jedi themselves. And in the final momements of the "balance shift":
"No counterforce has risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fasioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended." - James Luceno: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
The fact, that no counterforce was presented, pretty much means that the Sith were acting in accordance with the "will of the Force". And before you even attempt to argue, that the duo was so powerful that they had the Force under control:
"Gazing into Sojourn's darkening sky, he wondered what calamity the Force was planning in retreat to visit upon him or Sidious or both of them for willfully tipping the balance." - Plagueis thinks about that himself, James Luceno: Darth Plagueis, Chapter 24.
This are Plagueis thoughts pretty much immediately after the unbalancing has happened. And his death didn't affect the status quo, because the will of the Force was not fullfilled yet. We know that it was the fate of Anakin that finally brought the balance back, by first orchestrating the downfall of the Jedi and then ending the ways of the Sith.
I was aware of the fact, that the tainting of Yavin 4 began with the arrival of Sadow. That doesn't contradict my point. In fact, I'm starting to wonder, if you are actually reading what you're quoting yourself.
"I think Kun saw what Naga Sadow had accomplished here with Sith alchemy and architecture and decided he could do better. He forced the Massassi to build new temples, but this time with a focus on complementing and augmenting the dark side."
Emphasis mine. The wording implies, that the old temples [i]did not focus on complementing and augmenting the dark side. The new ones did. So it was Kun who caused Yavin 4 to become a Dark Side nexus, not Sadow – who just started the process. And Kun still identifies the amulet as the source of the power present – not the temple. The amulet in turn is utilizing the power of its wearer and not magically distilling "the Dark Side" out of the thin air arround it. And, by the way, Sith amulets work with "the Force" which is omnipresent and not necessarily with just the Dark Side. And there is pretty much no proof that they would work better in a "dark side enviroment" than they would anywhere else.
One must love the conclusions you're summoning out of nowhere.
What it changes, is, that – rather than making use of the surrounding "focused" powers, the amulet draws upon Kun's inner hatred. No mention of outside energies affecting the power of the blast or anything else – just Kun's own hatred. And I don't really see why that should be boosted by being at a place tainted by the Dark Side. Usually such places don't boost emotions, just because somebody enters them.
And Sidious doesn't get access to the unbalanced Force that boosted his abilities, meaning that all feats he has committed from the shift to RotS are void – according to your logic.
Oh. Let me quote you on that: Not that "he hasn't therefore he can't" is at all a valid form of argument.
Double-standards much?
Well, first because they are no "nexus feats" and, even assuming they were, that doesn't mean he can't do something similar elsewere. The effect that such a "nexus" might have had can be argued, but it is certainly no reason to exclude those feats. Otherwise, as I said, pretty much all of Sidious feats have to be ruled out, too.
Yes. There is a reason for that, and, apparently, you didn't get it.
"Remember the first and only reality of the Sith: There can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced."
The reason for Sidious calling Maul a "rival" is very clearly not, that he suggests, that Maul could really rival him. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to confront him alone. It is merely the fact that Maul doesn't longer belong to Sidious' Sith order, that makes him a "rival". Sidious knows what he taught is apprentice and it's pretty clear, that he never trained a "successor".
Another one of this highly amusing retorts. I suggest, that Maul's supposed "Sith training" was pretty much limited to combat, without any real training in terms of force abilities (e.g. force lightning) and you're answer is, essentially: "Look. He can use telekinesis." So Maul is on par with most three year old Padawan's in the Jedi Temple? Oh. No. I forgot. His telekinesis is "more impressive". Let us ignore, that force powers can't be measure like that in a relieable fashion (e.g. it's harder to move a grain of sand than moving a stone) and just assume he is some highly skilled Force user.
How does his telekinesis help him when getting attacked with a Sith magic attack, force lightning or any other advanced force power? It doesn't? Well. Than it stands to reason that Aleema Keto would simply instakill Maul with a single demonstration of her abilities. And that was, again, the point here.
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I'm afraid that "The Force according to Beniboybling" is not a valid argument. In fact, this is complete and utter nonsense. Why would more experience and skill in use of the Force (translating into "being more powerful") result in immortality? And the Force is connected to life? Yes. But not in the sense you seem to suggest here. Its tied to the Midichlorians within a Force user and those usually don't vanish with age, do they?
Did any of those victims offer some resitance against being force choked, like, for example Luke does, when he is attacked with the ability in the Dark Empire series? Or do you want to make a point, that Sidious (and Dooku) managed to score points against targets not defending themselves. In that case, Savage is more powerful than Dooku and Ventress combined (as he choked them both simultaneously). Odan Urr attempts to attack first, fails and then tries to defend himself and fails once more. Give me a call when Sidious successfully defends himself against advanced force techniques and manages to overpower people actively defending themselves.
I don't know. Is it even real?
You're wrong. See above.
Too bad that doesn't render the feat void. Or it does and you don't have any feats for Sidious any longer. No double-standards. Your call.
The last time I checked, losing even a part of your physical body resulted in you being a potentially weaker force user (e.g. Vader). Yet losing it completely makes you "stronger" somehow? Yes. That seems to be totally reasonable. So this is why all Dark Side users are attempting to cheat death, rather than ensuring their spirit is "placed" in suffienciently powerful Dark Side nexus (which appears to be Plan B for them).
And I know that Kun was utilizing the power of some of Luke's students. Yet, some of his actions over the span of the Jedi Academy trilogy happened without him "joining forces" with anybody. Killing Gantoris would be one example, collectively force choking all of Luke's students and mind-controlling Streen would be others. And may I remind you that his more impressive feats (e.g. mindcontrolling the entire Senate on Coruscant) happened far away from any nexus? Just asking.
Okay. I concede the point. But now you will have to deal with a different one:
Odan-Urr has successfully used the technique against the surviving Sith Lords of the Sith Empire. So, by logic, he was already more powerful than any of those a millenia ago. Still he is no match for Kun. And I had forgotten about that detail with Ulic, which further serves my point: It needs several Jedi (including Vodo) to just trap Ulic. And Qel-Droma is still inferior to Kun when it comes to force powers. Another point that makes it clear, that the two Sith are rather powerful, even in comparison to prodigal talents (Nomi Sunrider).
It is absurd to ask, how you think Sidious can defend against Sith magic attacks, when he never demonstrated the ability to do so? I don't think so.
Because we see her shooting in one panel and in the next, Kun blasts her down. What do you think happened between the two panels? Did Keto "miss" Kun by chance (never happened before) or did he just waltz through the attack, because he was so powerful, that that kind of attack was beneath his consideration?
No. It is not directed at Sidious, because he is not capable of doing what he wants to do (crush Sidious). Instead, he implodes the equipment around him. He even chalks that up to his own incompetence, instead of noticing Sidious superb force defenses (which was what you wanted to demonstrate with the quote). Fail.
I wonder where you gained your insight on the force push ability. The force push is variation of telekinesis, which in turn uses the Force to move objects. Or, as The Essential Guide through the Force describes it (on page 69) "[...]a manipulation of the Force to control the movement of objects through space".
They most certainly didn't take the rather complex detour of manipulating air particles in order to move objects, which would require quite some effort, when it comes to heavy objects (e.g. stones). In fact, we would see spectacular wind effects (air currents) happening, if that was the case, since air would float towards the point where the compression happens (law of equal destribution) and would move the air around when "fired". Yet, we see no flapping of clothes when the ability is used, nor "sideeffects" occuring on the target (e.g. clothes being moved). It's apparently just force energy directed against the target which should be moved, and thus, force barriers should stop it.
Seeing that Kun is present in flesh, I'm sure he'll have some problems.
Since you have given such a fine demonstration before, that the successfulness of a TK attack isn't dependent on the relative power level of the individuals involved, I see don't see a reason why Kun shouldn't be able to ragdoll Sidious at will. And as you failed to present proof for Sidious supposely superior force defense, I also see no reason why Kun couldn't force drain him. Or blast him to ashes with his amulets. Or seperate Sidious' spirit from his body.
And did he do that by redirecting Sidious' very own force lightning through Sidious' force defense?
Glad you noticed that. So why employ it against Kun? That aside: I simple see no reason to assume, that Sidious is capable of easily defending himself against Sith magic attacks, that may make use of abilities he has never seen before. Do you? If yes, you may share them.
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I'm getting tired of the stunts in reasoning you're trying to perform.
Yoda and Mace are a part of the "greatest duelists ever" group, but given that the entire council is sorted in there, is a testament to the rather vast sampling group the respective author is utilizing. We're not talking "just the topdogs of the era" here, but more likely "them and their peer group and people with a similar position". Unless you want to tell me that, let's say, Coleman Trebor is on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Now Kun belongs to the "top dog" category, which already elevates him above most members of the Jedi Council – namely those that don't belong to that category in the PT era. Or, as you so nicely pointed out, everybody, with the exception of Yoda and Mace. You could just use simple math here. If Kun is the best lightsaber combatant to come around for 600 years, he is one of the 40 best lightsaber combatants in the history of the Jedi Order. And this is, let me point this out once more, apprentice / Padawan Kun, who develops further even after that specific point, inventing his own weapon and style in the process.
And given the latter fact, Mace Windu is really the only person that compares in terms of pure lightsaber ability, since he is the only other character shown to have invented a unique form of fighting. One could even argue that, given Kun did not only invent a unique style, but also a unique weapon, specifically designed to confuse opponents in combat (alternating blade length and density), he's potentially more lethal than Mace when it comes down to lightsaber combat.
I love how people are always pointing out Sidious' suposed superiority in discipline X but fail to produce any proof for their claims. I'll make this one easier for you: You can't proof that Sidious is faster than Kun, because there aren't compareable instances of them using force speed (in or off combat). Thus, what is "true" in your personal view of things, doesn't need to be seen as truth by anybody else. And that means, that there is no reason to assume, that Sidious has a speed advantage on Kun. Period.
Yes. Sidious' precognition is legendary. I wonder how people managed to force push him over his own desk or throw him into the reactor shaft of the Death Star. He must have seen that coming, right? So of course will expect hitting someone with a lightsaber and having his weapon fail, instead of seeing the opponent crumbling to ground. Much as he will forsee accurately, when Kun changes the length or density of his blade, features of his lightsaber specifically crafted in to surprise opponents. And of course, Sidious will always react in a perfect fashion to those events, because his field record regarding surprise actions – as the ones noted above – is flawless.
Firstly: May I ask, when Maul performed those feats "unaugmented"? Did he, at some point that I forgot, lose his connection to the Force?
That aside: Last time I checked space-age metal is a little tougher than skin, flesh and bones. And I didn't see Sidious physically overpowering Maul "with ease". With the Force, yes. But in pure physical confrontation, he was quite in the need to use some effort (e.g. breaking the saber lock with Maul).
For the last time: A force user utilizing force speed will appear "like a blur" to everyone else – even another force user – unless that force user is also using force speed. Which, for whatever reason, almost never happens. I'm rather sure that, if Maul ever watches "The Phantom Menace", he can also see Obi-Wan moving "like a blur" in the scene in which he and Qui-Gon escape from the droidekas on board of the Trade Federation ship. Does that mean that Obi-Wan can "speedblitz" Maul?
Oh. Of course. So you just "forgot" to mention the opponents actively using the ability, or do you just assume, that all duels between force users happen on "force speed" accelaration? And I still wonder, how you compare the speed of Maul to that of Ulic and Kun. Just going by another assumption, say "Maul must be faster than them, because I think so"?
Trained to what extend? And, more importantly: What does training matter, when you encounter beings, you worship as gods (or fear as demons), that are equipped with superhuman speed, strength and precognition? While Plagueis goes to a significant effort to explain to Sidious, that this is the ultimate test for his apprentice, I fail to see how that is the case. Those opponents are entirely without chance against the Sith. And would be against every other pair of trained force users trying to fight them the same way.
Oh. Of course it does. First, it would remove the "omni" from the "omni-directional", since the Sith are apparently covering eachother to a certain extend. Then, there is a limitation to how many people can engage one opponent with primitive melee weapons. The book says, that the Sith were going against "one, two or three" opponents at a time.
Sorry, that I forgot to mention that just the "tip" is stunning / deadly. Which doesn't matter much exactly, when your opponents just perceive you as a blur, handling the weapon so fast you might as well wield dozens at once. Which is exactly the way that the Kursid would perceive Sidious, Plagueis or any force user in combat mode for that matter.
I wonder what makes you suggest that this "feat" is anything special. It's just an instance of force users being confronted with combatants that can't use the force and don't have the weaponary to really endanger the duo (e.g. heavy blasters, automatic blaster weapons). So why should we expect anything but a landslide victory for Team Sith here? And why wouldn't any other pair of trained force users come out of this with the very same result?
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It is not "new continuity" because it doesn't add anything substancial to the existing canon. And the entirety of the text is not touching upon the continuity, given that it is not a fictional text, but the description of the making of a character.
That is very much a basis for doubting it, because it renders the statement the opinion of a character within the story rather than making it a fact. Even more so, if we consider the fact, that the character in question is a historian, who would, most certainly, not make a comment regarding force powers specifically, because those aren't quantifiable. And when somebody refers to Sidious as a historical figure, it is rather hard to rule out those parts of "power" where he is, without doubt, the most powerful Sith ever (military strength, political power).
Erm.
Since I'm not convinced that the statement including the once is a "retcon" of the statement without the wording, the former is still there. If the "once" is just there to indicate the death of Kun, the "most powerful" would be limited to Kun's own lifetime, which you can probably agree to. The point is: Then Kun is still more powerful than Vitiate, with all implications going with that idea. And for the record: I, myself, don't believe that. But if we play "take sources literal, no matter what", this is the final result.
In this particular case: Yes.
As you probably know, "retcon" is a short for "retroactive continuity" and that is a term to descripe a new part of the continuity (e.g. a new book, comic) "overwriting" given information of earlier parts of the continuity (e.g. an earlier book, comic). The various "Guides", "Sourcebooks" and "Dictionaries" of the SW universe are not a part of the continuity in that sense, but just descriptions of the original continuity. And, like the Insider, unless they introduce new fictional work to the aforementioned continuity, we just have different opinions – and no retcons. A retcon would happen if Exar Kun was called the most powerful Sith Lord ever, then you have the introduction of a new Sith Lord (e.g. Sidious), who is then labeled the most powerful. Nothing like that happened. So we're probably just dealing with the author's opinion on the respective character, and that can be ignored.
Very much. But the same goes for similar statements regarding Sidious.
And you would be wrong.
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It most certainly is, if you utilize a reductio ad absurdum to make it sound asinine. This is not a comparison between two character classes in some sort of role-playing game, but a clash of two avatars of different philosophies among the Sith, which I tried to describe in an earlier posting as answer to The Merchant.
The Ancient Sith did settle all scores through combat, which affected their entire philosophy. "The strongest shall rule" and not the smartest or most cunning guy. When you wanted the mantle of the Dark Lord, you had to get it through duels and warfare, not political manipulation or a single confrontation in which the apprentice overthrows the master. It was a lifetime filled with battles, skirmishes or mano-a-mano confrontation, before someone made it to the top – where he seldomly stayed long.
Kun didn't experience any of that first hand. But he had the knowledge of people who did, and who amassed their knowledge with their one cause in mind: be capable of taking rivals down. Sidious might be a "polymath", but he is certainly not focused on combat, be it in physical shape, force abilities or lightsaber practice. He can "swing with the best of them", yes, but there is nothing to suggest, that he would be capable of overcoming a powerful Dark Side adversary. Think in categories of "far worse than Revan and Malak" (description of Nadd). Think about combat prowess that would make Kreia and the Exile look like children playing with toys. Think about Sith sorcerers with abilities boosted by amulets, trinkets and sceptres wielding abilities specifically invented for bringing other Dark Side users down.
And you think Sidious would just defeat them in combat, because he managed to stay alive when fighting Jedi? Or his own apprentice, that he had specifically trained to get rid off, when the time should come? Or because some sources proclaim he is the "most powerful"? That's enough to throw any kind of reasoning overboard, and errect a wall with "Sidious wins" painted on it, regardless whom your favorite Sith faces?
And the basis for proclaiming they aren't is what exactly?
As far as field records go, Kun managed to wipe the ground with the most powerful Jedi Masters of his time in personal confrontation. He walked into the Senate on Coruscant and dominated the place with his Force powers. He walked into the main bastion of the Jedi Order (Ossus), plundered it personally, leaving the most important figure of the Jedi Order (Odan-Urr) dead.
Your basis to compare him to Sidious would be what? That the entirety of Sidious' actions did generate better results after three decades than Kun came up with in six months? That Sidious' managed to survive confrontations with beings possibly more competent in combat and more powerful in the Force than the people Kun absolutely destroyed?
I'd love to hear your reasoning, but I'm afraid that I won't see much resembling "reason" in that regard.
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Jul 16th, 2015 01:27 PM
