Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Good point. All out Astro Force/Omega Beam = large damage to Superman = somewhere around noob SSGod level. Maybe a little above. At best it's only twice as powerful though.
See, but then we also have to scale to Final Crisis and Darkseid dragging down the multiverse.
And then Superman dispesing him with an f'n whistle. That's worse then Songbird cracking open the Moonstones with mere sonic vibrations (All the cosmic energies they contain, and broken by a high note?)
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Why would we ever do that? Superman has never taken the OE from a multiversal sized Darkseid. Superman never fought Darkseid without being boomtubed to the same size as him.
And good luck finding the right anti-vibration to cancel out Goku before he gets his shit pushed in. Darkseid was currently unable to move or act and was dying of radion poisoning while not in his physical form.
You're grasping for more straws than Carver's ever put his lips on.
Nothing to indicate Darkseid's OE is affected by his size, though. (Or the size of his avatars.)
And even at full size on Apokolips, that's not him. He's always chilling on another plane, funneling his power through a 3d representation of his true self (Which could be ALL his power, in any size he wish's.)
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
If we scale up to his true form, his OE was a size relatable to him. Which if he fired it into the Multiverse with no boom tubes, would be nearly universal in size. So, if we want to pretend his boomtubed down OE is as powerful as the OE infinitely bigger, then be my guest.
All you keep doing is moving him further away from Superman by trying to make DS look more powerful. Do tell me the relevance Darkseid potentially locking away large percents of his power and it possibly never being truly him have on Superman fights though.
Which is the problem with using his 4th World feats for his Superman fights. He's never fought Superman with the full advantage his natural form gives him. Darkseid's fist would be the size of a universe if he fought Superman in his true form. Even if Superman was the size of a galaxy he's still a tiny speck.
When Jane beat Mangog, would we assume Mangog was holding back his power?
When Sentrt beat Molecule Man, is it assume MM held back his power?
Someone should tell Quan if so, he sure argues like Sentry was firing on all cylinders.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Why would you bring up his 4th World feats as possibly being an Avatar that Darkseid can choose to funnel minute amounts of power into, if you're going to question that this doesn't exactly help Superman? All you've done is cast doubt on it, not show he was doing it. And if you follow along, I'm not questioning Darkseid's power, but rather how his feats when he's bigger than the multiverse translate into his tiny size. In an example I think should be understood, it'd be like saying the Arcturus Rann (no Enigma Force) can beat Hank Pym when he's subatomic sized, but he can't beat him when Hank's a thousand feet tall while Arcturus is still subatomic. Just too big, and his strength stays proportional to his size.
Basically you stated that Darkseid's true multiversal size is not even his real power, and then am asking me to stop assuming Darkseid was holding back power against Superman? So... Darkseid was putting all his multiversal size and power into a being the size of Brock Lesnar? Panel?
So when Superman gets larger on Apokolips, is he a lot more powerful? If he stepoed back into the DCU skirting the Boom Tube, would he suddenly start tearing apart the universe just from being in it?
What about Spectre? He's been known to change size. Does his power level change, too? Unlike Piccolo, who got really huge, yet Goku still tossed him around as easily as normal sized?
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
He'd be bigger than the universe without the boomtube so...
Spectre can adapt to dimensional changes with his own power. Superman can not just grow to multiversal proportions on his own, nor is that his natural form. Are you questioning if Darkseid would appear more powerful if he was boomtubed into a universe vs if he were fighting a multiversal sized Darkseid or something? Make that thread actually.
It's not about his power changing, it's about his power staying proportional to his size.
The fact that Darkseid falling into the multiverse while dying is something you're using as a feat for Superman here is beyond me. Ask yourself how many multiverses Darkseid has destroyed when being punched around by Superman. You're arguing that Darkseid puts his full might into his Superman fighting form, so why wouldn't he destroy more universes by falling at full power than when he was dying? Could it I dunno, be because of the dimensional differences?
The size difference between Apokolips and DCU isn't universal. It's just planetary.. We saw that in Byrnes run, when Superman and Orion took on that multi armed god.
The TRUE Darkseid is his abstract form, that exists away from his physical self. That's why Superman was able to disperse him, because he was a conceptual being without a physical self, stepping outside of his dimension.
Final Crisis is the only time we've ever seen him step into the main universe. Sort of like how Elaine Bellock as The Presence can't even enter certain dimensions, because her mere "presence" (haha) would tear it apart.
Now that said, why do I need to prove Darkseid is channeling ALL of his power into an avatar? Doesn't it work the other way around? Someone loses, bad, and it becomes "Doom bot" or "Thanos clone".
Isn't it POSSIBLE that Superman simply has multiversal level power?
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Also, Superman was AT LEAST sun size there, and possibly way bigger due to not realizing they were planets until he really looked at them. You're missing the trees for the forest here, and I see your thread backfired.
Well, we'll ignore that True part, but Darkseid was mortally wounded by Orion, dying and not able to move due to Radion poison, and Turpin got attacked by Black Racer... and Darkseid was out of his physical self like you said. https://imgur.com/VuVldzZ https://imgur.com/2FZp3g9
Basically, Darkseid was ****ed beyond repair at multiple stages.
Plus, Morrison writes DC to be basically notes, and it's heavily played through FC: Beyond, and Multiversity:
"GM: There's this idea of octaves and music, because of DC's Multiverse, at least, is based on vibrations and tones, and it seems like an interesting thing to do, to base everything around a Western musical scale.
CA: There's a pretty clear tie to Final Crisis in issue #1, with Superman singing or playing a song to save the universe.
GM: A lot of people just thought, where the hell did this come from? To me, I think this is the prime basis of the DC Universe, that it's made of vibrations, so if you want to change anything then you have to change it with a simple song. Most people thought it was insane when Superman sings and saves the day, but for me, it came from the very root of how the DC Universe is."
Superman can do that because that's how DC operates. Dragon Ball does not. Superman would have to find the specific counter notes if you were to argue that imo, which would be hard to do in a fight.
You base this on Morrison's interview. The problem is a couple things. First off, this would defeat your point about Superman entirely, because Grant outright states they've never been at full power before. Here's the full quote before I continue:
"MORRISON: They don't. They can feel the influence of them, but they don't know about them. Superman, Batman and the Justice League know about the New Gods because they've met them, but we've never really seen the New Gods in their full power before. We've seen their actions. The DC superheroes see the New Gods as other superheroes in the way that Orion or Barda can join the Justice League. They've never understood that what they really are are f---ing gods. This story's about the first time Darkseid actually manifests on the planet. Everything we've ever seen before has been kind of projections from the world of the New Gods and for the first time we're seeing them in their full power. And it's like what would happen if a god appeared on the planet. Galactus is one god. This is a whole bunch of them, that's how bad it is."
Second off, this was from March before FC came out, and it was used to hype up FC. This also extends to all the Gods. The only thing in his actual writing that backs up them being to this degree is when Darkseid has the Anti-Life Equation... while being mortally wounded in Turpin's body. Though to make sense of his quote, we could say "danger," as they were definitely at their most dangerous ever. Sheer power though?
Third, almost all the Gods were dying and rotting and manifesting in weaker beings, and all throughout FC Darkseid was mortally wounded, so they aren't at full power in that sense. Grant literally describes in that interview what happens in FC with them being "projections", which seemed to be used to throw us off I guess. https://imgur.com/O7JRnjF https://imgur.com/mbf21RL
Forth, this quote only extends to the actual universe itself, not New Genesis or Apokalips. IE, if true it would mean that every New God is an avatar. It seems Grant kind of bypasses them on Apokalips, but he was pissed about them writing Countdown/DoTNG so I don't think he counted that. Plus I doubt he'd try and retcon Kirby's work as well. Bit of a contradiction.
Fifth, I may be wrong here, but as I understand it, Darkseid tumbled back in time all the way back to Seven Soldiers. If that's the case, the conceptual face we see of Darkseid has only ever been a mortally wounded Darkseid with the Anti-Life. So rather than a true form, it has only represented him possessing lesser beings while being wounded with the ALE. I'm not sure interviews exist to actually state he has a form beyond Apokalips. I know Morrison considers all New Gods to be ideas, but that doesn't mean his true form is a spirit. And it also retcons literally every appearance of Darkseid as well. Even in Multiversity we see New Genesis looking down at lesser worlds, mind you they're weakened (they also acknowledge other forms of themselves and Darkseid). Plus you know, the whole map with them having planets and everything... Basically, if Darkseid has a true single form, then so should all New Gods, and it basically brings us back to square one.
I don't have the energy to defend and read Seven Soldiers so if you press me, I won't give proceed, but I will share my findings. https://imgur.com/eFY2tCh
Sixth, Darkseid fell through the Orrery, and had the Anti-Life equation in FC. It's not just his presence entering the universe. There are many statements depicting his fall - including the Monitors talking about the Orrery being damaged - so I'll just cut to the chase and use Morrison's words and pictures of his giant ass:
(first one also helps the Seven Soldiers theory) https://imgur.com/uNBT9F6 https://imgur.com/B2z0LRy
There's more, but I feel this should suffice for now.
Because you just cast doubt on Darkseid by trying to show how powerful he is?
First it was universal, then it was multiversal, then that might not even be his full power, but in the case of Superman fights, it most certainly is his full power? Do you not see the problem here?
And I'm not saying you have to because you most certainly won't, I'm just saying your logic isn't helping you convey a believable point.
Not based on whatever the hell you're using, no.
Let me explain the chain of events here:
The OE is universal you say because it matches the Astro Force which has a universal feat. Then you say the OE is Multiversal because Darkseid fell through the Orrery and subjugated all life using the ALE and dragged the multiverse down. Then Superman sung away a triple, possibly quadruple weakened Darkseid due to vibrations, and that's why the OE became Multiversal... because WE HAVE TO! Darkseid used the OE once in that story to BFR Batman, and got mortally wounded by Orion that damaged his TRUE FORM, and then shot a radion bullet back in time 50 years in Orion's head and killed him.
And we ignore how big Darkseid actually is while falling through the Orrery.
I think there's better ways to go about this personally.
I, CDTM, challenge OBD to a Superman vs Goku Battlezone.
To be argued by my champion and protege, Darksaint, for Supermans side.
OBD shall have a comparable champion in JohnAnvil (Or Carver, if he shows up in time.)
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
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Mar 18th, 2019 06:48 PM
