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Goku vs Superman Death Battle-Discuss
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. You're missing the point here.


You are missing something bud. So is an infinite amount of pages, as stated on panel, finite too for you? You don't like that it had a number of infinite pages? That's your problem, it had according to the comic, so stop your BS excuses and deal with it.

Old Post Jul 22nd, 2015 08:05 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. You're missing the point here. "Every book possible" is STILL a finite amount of books. It portrays the fact that there are books which were IMPOSSIBLE to write, meaning that if JK Rowling got killed while writing Harry Potter in every universe, other than ours, then it was IMPOSSIBLE for Harry Potter to come out. And again, it is a VERY finite amount of books, when considering how information allows transfer of publications, and knowledge through META-PHYSICAL MEANS, such as the internet. Meaning that there are SEVERAL ways that this statement limits itself, in simply existing.

Unless Superman lifted it by himself, stating that the book weighed infinite weight, then the feat is NOT an infinite lifting feat. Since he needed Shazam's help, it PROVES that the weight is finite, as infinity divided by two IS STILL INFINITY. Meaning that the weight would not change, and Superman would still be lifting infinite weight, so Shazam's help would not be needed, or really even be help, in the FIRST place.

BUT since they BOTH have a FINITE weight lifting LIMIT, the books weight is ALSO finite. thumb up

And from there, the most logical calculation of the book, is the one that assumes the least. Hell, for all we know, there could be no books at all, on any planet other than Earth and Oa, in DC. And the only book on Oa is the book of Destiny, portraying the Blackest night.

2. I don't think you're getting me here, the computer didn't have access to knowledge databanks in every other storage system there is, such as willpower, love, rage, etc. Meaning that books stored on such mediums were not IN the book of infinity, meaning it holds a FINITE number of books.

3. Infinity / Infinity = Infinity. So since Superman needed Shazam's help, the weight was finite, as is their lifting capacity.

4. Superman's mental blocks don't restrict unlimited power from him. He simply doesn't have it. How do you think one Superman is capable of killing another, in the case of Superboy Prime? One infinity canNOT be larger than another, as it is a logical paradox. But FINITE numbers can be larger than others, MEANING that their powers are FINITE.

What about this is so hard to get, for you? No matter how much those Screwyattack idiots say that Superman is omnipotent, it won't magically make him omnipotent. He needed a mech just to fight Mandrakk, for christ sake. smfh no


1. Ok this is getting silly. Whether she dies or not, there was still the possibility of her writing it. There was also the possibility of her writting it a billion different ways. There is also the possibility of here writting a billion different book a billion different ways. And again that's only one person. This book counts them all since they are all POSSIBILE

Superman lifted it with help which means they both lifted infinity. HAving two lift it doesn't magically make it finite especially when it was made clear it the text it was infinate pages. We can't discount that because you don't like it. It canonly had infinate pages and therefore infinate weight

You keep harping on the books that actually exist. That's why you are having a problem here. The book of infinity has way more in it that just the books that currently exist or even that ever will exist. It contains ALL BOOKS POSSIBLE. It's possible for me to write a thousand books about non sense. Since it's possible, they exist within it.

2. All books possible is infinite

3. Half of infinity is infinity so they both lifted infinity

4. Yes they actually do. Prime has no blocks and is therefore stronger. Not hard to figure out.

They never said he was omnipotent. His power isn't limitless. But his strength is. Big difference


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2015 09:11 PM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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Except of this. Superman would have been most likely able to do it alone, like Ultraman, an alternate Superman, however, Superman is a hero and not arrogant, it's in his nature to take no risks and take help with him, just in case.

The book had an infinite number of pages, on panel fact, this means infinite weight, deal with it. Morrison made it easy to understand.

Old Post Jul 22nd, 2015 10:27 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
He only did it to Manchester to strip him of his powers though, not outright kill him like he did to Goku.


Plus it was only temporary damage, so basically like a controlled concussion.

Now what he did to Luthor was more disturbing, using hv to cut out the parts of his brain that knew he was Clark Kent. That's on par with Identity Crisis or Charles Xavior mind screwing.


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 12:20 AM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Every book "possible", means that it doesn't contain books that are impossible. Which means that it is a finite number.

And also, the computer which processed the book had infinite memory. But it worked as a computer, which was powered by the internet. Other planets in DC use different means of knowledge sharing, similar to the internet, but different as well. For example, Oa uses the sheer force of willpower to transfer, store, and process knowledge, as well as do many other things. The internet, therefor computers, therefor the infinite memory computer, cannot process willpower. Or any of the alternative means of informational sharing that other planets use. It was explored in... I think it was an edition of Lobo? But it said that each planet has its own version of the internet. It was basically a convenient way of explaining why aliens don't use the internet to communicate with Earthlings.

So yeah, my estimate is the most logical assumption of the books weight, as it is a finite amount.

And I also have the supporting evidence, behind it being easier for Shazam and Superman to lift the book, then it was for Superman, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, and Martian Manhunter to move Earth.

If Superman could lift infinite weight, he would have lifted the Spectre, EFFORTLESSLY by HIMSELF, and would have done the same by himself to the Earth.



Goku can be caught off guard just like anyone in DBZ.

Superman just has the luxury of his power being something he doesn't have to maintain, as it's simply his biology.

Superman is as durable while sleeping, as he is while awake, but that's because his powers are pretty much just the same thing as a super strong human.

That doesn't prove superiority to Goku, in any way other than he could probably kill him while he was asleep. Which Goku could do anyway.

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Read it and weep.


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 06:10 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Every book "possible", means that it doesn't contain books that are impossible. Which means that it is a finite number.

And also, the computer which processed the book had infinite memory. But it worked as a computer, which was powered by the internet. Other planets in DC use different means of knowledge sharing, similar to the internet, but different as well. For example, Oa uses the sheer force of willpower to transfer, store, and process knowledge, as well as do many other things. The internet, therefor computers, therefor the infinite memory computer, cannot process willpower. Or any of the alternative means of informational sharing that other planets use. It was explored in... I think it was an edition of Lobo? But it said that each planet has its own version of the internet. It was basically a convenient way of explaining why aliens don't use the internet to communicate with Earthlings.

So yeah, my estimate is the most logical assumption of the books weight, as it is a finite amount.

And I also have the supporting evidence, behind it being easier for Shazam and Superman to lift the book, then it was for Superman, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, and Martian Manhunter to move Earth.

If Superman could lift infinite weight, he would have lifted the Spectre, EFFORTLESSLY by HIMSELF, and would have done the same by himself to the Earth.



Goku can be caught off guard just like anyone in DBZ.

Superman just has the luxury of his power being something he doesn't have to maintain, as it's simply his biology.

Superman is as durable while sleeping, as he is while awake, but that's because his powers are pretty much just the same thing as a super strong human.

That doesn't prove superiority to Goku, in any way other than he could probably kill him while he was asleep. Which Goku could do anyway.


You know you disagreeing with canon fact doesn't actually make what you say change canon fact right?


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 06:33 AM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Except of this. Superman would have been most likely able to do it alone, like Ultraman, an alternate Superman, however, Superman is a hero and not arrogant, it's in his nature to take no risks and take help with him, just in case.

The book had an infinite number of pages, on panel fact, this means infinite weight, deal with it. Morrison made it easy to understand.


Also if Superman tried to lift it alone and had trouble, why wouldn't he use the other strong man to help? Just because Superman COULD do it alone doesn't mean he wanted to or even thought he could


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 02:18 PM
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bbrem123
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wait why the hell do you need help with infinite weight? that makes no sense lol

you either can or cant lift it


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 02:55 PM
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I think we need more proof Goku is stronger then Superman, and we can't find that in physical feats alone.


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 03:08 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bbrem123
wait why the hell do you need help with infinite weight? that makes no sense lol

you either can or cant lift it


When I spot for bench pressing, when the guy startes having trouble I just place my hands on the bar. More often than not that's all they need and they are able to lft the weight themselves because they think I'm helping. Sometimes all you need is that mental edge. Same thing here


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 03:16 PM
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bbrem123
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superman definitely has far better feats of strength. No question about it


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 03:24 PM
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bbrem123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
When I spot for bench pressing, when the guy startes having trouble I just place my hands on the bar. More often than not that's all they need and they are able to lft the weight themselves because they think I'm helping. Sometimes all you need is that mental edge. Same thing here
infinite is infinite though.

So technically half of infinite does not exist. Lifting half of infinite would be the same thing as lifting infinite.

I might just be losing my mind...not sure. no expression


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 03:27 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bbrem123
infinite is infinite though.

So technically half of infinite does not exist. Lifting half of infinite would be the same thing as lifting infinite.

I might just be losing my mind...not sure. no expression


I just meant Superman having assistance, even tho that assistance didn't really help (like I try not to help when spotting) didn't change that he lifted infinite weight


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 03:31 PM
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bbrem123
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ahh sorry I took that wrong. You are correct my friend


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Old Post Jul 23rd, 2015 03:42 PM
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yungz22
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Every book "possible", means that it doesn't contain books that are impossible. Which means that it is a finite number.

And also, the computer which processed the book had infinite memory. But it worked as a computer, which was powered by the internet. Other planets in DC use different means of knowledge sharing, similar to the internet, but different as well. For example, Oa uses the sheer force of willpower to transfer, store, and process knowledge, as well as do many other things. The internet, therefor computers, therefor the infinite memory computer, cannot process willpower. Or any of the alternative means of informational sharing that other planets use. It was explored in... I think it was an edition of Lobo? But it said that each planet has its own version of the internet. It was basically a convenient way of explaining why aliens don't use the internet to communicate with Earthlings.

So yeah, my estimate is the most logical assumption of the books weight, as it is a finite amount.

And I also have the supporting evidence, behind it being easier for Shazam and Superman to lift the book, then it was for Superman, Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, and Martian Manhunter to move Earth.

If Superman could lift infinite weight, he would have lifted the Spectre, EFFORTLESSLY by HIMSELF, and would have done the same by himself to the Earth.



Goku can be caught off guard just like anyone in DBZ.

Superman just has the luxury of his power being something he doesn't have to maintain, as it's simply his biology.

Superman is as durable while sleeping, as he is while awake, but that's because his powers are pretty much just the same thing as a super strong human.

That doesn't prove superiority to Goku, in any way other than he could probably kill him while he was asleep. Which Goku could do anyway.



you cant debunk infiniti bro its infiniti


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Old Post Jul 24th, 2015 02:52 PM
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SSJGGogeta
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
1. Ok this is getting silly. Whether she dies or not, there was still the possibility of her writing it. There was also the possibility of her writting it a billion different ways. There is also the possibility of here writting a billion different book a billion different ways. And again that's only one person. This book counts them all since they are all POSSIBILE

Superman lifted it with help which means they both lifted infinity. HAving two lift it doesn't magically make it finite especially when it was made clear it the text it was infinate pages. We can't discount that because you don't like it. It canonly had infinate pages and therefore infinate weight

You keep harping on the books that actually exist. That's why you are having a problem here. The book of infinity has way more in it that just the books that currently exist or even that ever will exist. It contains ALL BOOKS POSSIBLE. It's possible for me to write a thousand books about non sense. Since it's possible, they exist within it.

2. All books possible is infinite

3. Half of infinity is infinity so they both lifted infinity

4. Yes they actually do. Prime has no blocks and is therefore stronger. Not hard to figure out.

They never said he was omnipotent. His power isn't limitless. But his strength is. Big difference


No, this has BEEN silly, since this "infinite weight" shit was brought up.

1. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE. If there are "possible" circumstances, then there are "IMpossible" circumstances, meaning that the circumstances that are IMpossible OUTWEIGH, and therefor overshadow, the POSSIBLE circumstances. Because the list of books that are IMPOSSIBLE to make follows MUCH less strict criteria than books POSSIBLE does. For example, if J.K. Rowling was shot and killed before making Harry Potter, then NO ONE would make the EXACT same book, and therefor, Harry Potter would be IMPOSSIBLE to make.

Anyway, this doesn't change the fact that ∞/2=∞. This ALONE is PROOF that either Superman and Shazam BOTH lifted the equivalent of infinite weight,MEANING THEY ARE BOTH EQUAL IN STRENGTH, OR that NEITHER did, since Superman's stress was relieved from Shazam's help, which does NOT make sense, as that could ONLY happen in the case of a FINITE weight. thumb up

2. All books possible is a ridiculously high number. But most certainly NOT infinite. Specifically because the nature of the term "possible", gives a set of criteria that would have to be met, in order for the books to exist in the first place.

3. Shazam has the strength of Hercules. Wonder woman is stronger than Hercules, therefore Hercules, i.e. Shazam, could not lift infinity. So since Shazam does NOT have infinite strength, neither does Superman, as Shazam DID relieve some of the weight from Superman.

4. Superboy Prime killed Kal-L, of Earth 2. Who didn't have the mental blocks that Kal-El of Earth 1 has. Which is possible why it was occasionally suggested that Kal-El was slightly weaker than Kal-L. But even without his mental blocks, Kal-El would be pretty much equal to Kal-L. And Superboy Prime BEAT HIM TO DEATH.

And also, what about Doomsday? Doomsday killed Superman with just strength as well. And almost did it a second time. Doomsday was constantly considered superior to Superman, until he gained consciousness. EVEN IN THE FUTURE, AFTER SUPERMAN OVERCAME HIS MENTAL BLOCKS. So how can Doomsday be stronger than an infinite strength? And how can he get stronger every time he dies, even when he was already stronger than an infinite strength?

THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE: HE DOESN'T. Superman does NOT have infinite strength, no matter how badly you try to wank this feat.

And again, there is still all the other supporting evidence, like him needing help to move Earth, and him needing help to lift the Spectre. And btw, he tried to move Earth, AFTER lifting the Spectre, meaning that Earth DOES weigh more than the Spectre, even CONSIDERING Superman's mental blocks. thumb up

And one last thing, Superman hadn't overcome his mental blocks when he and Shazam lifted the book of infinity. Meaning that he was still stronger. Meaning that, since there is nothing greater than infinity, Superman did not lift infinite weight. thumb up


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 04:14 AM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No, this has BEEN silly, since this "infinite weight" shit was brought up.

1. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE. If there are "possible" circumstances, then there are "IMpossible" circumstances, meaning that the circumstances that are IMpossible OUTWEIGH, and therefor overshadow, the POSSIBLE circumstances. Because the list of books that are IMPOSSIBLE to make follows MUCH less strict criteria than books POSSIBLE does. For example, if J.K. Rowling was shot and killed before making Harry Potter, then NO ONE would make the EXACT same book, and therefor, Harry Potter would be IMPOSSIBLE to make.

Anyway, this doesn't change the fact that ∞/2=∞. This ALONE is PROOF that either Superman and Shazam BOTH lifted the equivalent of infinite weight,MEANING THEY ARE BOTH EQUAL IN STRENGTH, OR that NEITHER did, since Superman's stress was relieved from Shazam's help, which does NOT make sense, as that could ONLY happen in the case of a FINITE weight. thumb up

2. All books possible is a ridiculously high number. But most certainly NOT infinite. Specifically because the nature of the term "possible", gives a set of criteria that would have to be met, in order for the books to exist in the first place.

3. Shazam has the strength of Hercules. Wonder woman is stronger than Hercules, therefore Hercules, i.e. Shazam, could not lift infinity. So since Shazam does NOT have infinite strength, neither does Superman, as Shazam DID relieve some of the weight from Superman.

4. Superboy Prime killed Kal-L, of Earth 2. Who didn't have the mental blocks that Kal-El of Earth 1 has. Which is possible why it was occasionally suggested that Kal-El was slightly weaker than Kal-L. But even without his mental blocks, Kal-El would be pretty much equal to Kal-L. And Superboy Prime BEAT HIM TO DEATH.

And also, what about Doomsday? Doomsday killed Superman with just strength as well. And almost did it a second time. Doomsday was constantly considered superior to Superman, until he gained consciousness. EVEN IN THE FUTURE, AFTER SUPERMAN OVERCAME HIS MENTAL BLOCKS. So how can Doomsday be stronger than an infinite strength? And how can he get stronger every time he dies, even when he was already stronger than an infinite strength?

THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE: HE DOESN'T. Superman does NOT have infinite strength, no matter how badly you try to wank this feat.

And again, there is still all the other supporting evidence, like him needing help to move Earth, and him needing help to lift the Spectre. And btw, he tried to move Earth, AFTER lifting the Spectre, meaning that Earth DOES weigh more than the Spectre, even CONSIDERING Superman's mental blocks. thumb up

And one last thing, Superman hadn't overcome his mental blocks when he and Shazam lifted the book of infinity. Meaning that he was still stronger. Meaning that, since there is nothing greater than infinity, Superman did not lift infinite weight. thumb up


Butthurt and denial, a bad combination.

Different stories different writers. Morrison shows shazam the respect he deserves, he is a comic wiz, he knows and respects the chars, tske the zoo crew as an example. One writer has Superman fly from the other end of the universe to earth in 60 days, another caps him at light speed. Doesn't mean Superman isn't faster than ftl. His strength has always been a plot device, like superman himself, it's infinite if it's needed to. His mental blockades prevent him from destroying the fragile world around him while touching or interacting with things.

You can't grasp the logic behind an infinite strength because you try to applylogic to fiction that doesn't works with logic, your view is biased however. Same argument in dbz for example. Son Goku even at his most powerful can't bust a moon because he never did, all blasts from his enemies are not even island level, even from beerus, when they fight else the world would be destroyed as a side effect.

You don't like a canon feat of Superman? That's ok, we understand that but still you can't make it disappear with your whining, so deal with it, make a website where you "debunk" it and where no one can prove how utterly wrong your "logic" is, over and over again.

Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 05:36 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
I just meant Superman having assistance, even tho that assistance didn't really help (like I try not to help when spotting) didn't change that he lifted infinite weight


thumb up

1/2 of infinity is still infinity.

Logic is hard for some people here.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 08:05 PM
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Wouldn't that make the people who helped Superman just as strong as Superman? Both lifted infinity.


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 09:02 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
No, this has BEEN silly, since this "infinite weight" shit was brought up.

1. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT HERE. If there are "possible" circumstances, then there are "IMpossible" circumstances, meaning that the circumstances that are IMpossible OUTWEIGH, and therefor overshadow, the POSSIBLE circumstances. Because the list of books that are IMPOSSIBLE to make follows MUCH less strict criteria than books POSSIBLE does. For example, if J.K. Rowling was shot and killed before making Harry Potter, then NO ONE would make the EXACT same book, and therefor, Harry Potter would be IMPOSSIBLE to make.

Anyway, this doesn't change the fact that ∞/2=∞. This ALONE is PROOF that either Superman and Shazam BOTH lifted the equivalent of infinite weight,MEANING THEY ARE BOTH EQUAL IN STRENGTH, OR that NEITHER did, since Superman's stress was relieved from Shazam's help, which does NOT make sense, as that could ONLY happen in the case of a FINITE weight. thumb up

2. All books possible is a ridiculously high number. But most certainly NOT infinite. Specifically because the nature of the term "possible", gives a set of criteria that would have to be met, in order for the books to exist in the first place.

3. Shazam has the strength of Hercules. Wonder woman is stronger than Hercules, therefore Hercules, i.e. Shazam, could not lift infinity. So since Shazam does NOT have infinite strength, neither does Superman, as Shazam DID relieve some of the weight from Superman.

4. Superboy Prime killed Kal-L, of Earth 2. Who didn't have the mental blocks that Kal-El of Earth 1 has. Which is possible why it was occasionally suggested that Kal-El was slightly weaker than Kal-L. But even without his mental blocks, Kal-El would be pretty much equal to Kal-L. And Superboy Prime BEAT HIM TO DEATH.

And also, what about Doomsday? Doomsday killed Superman with just strength as well. And almost did it a second time. Doomsday was constantly considered superior to Superman, until he gained consciousness. EVEN IN THE FUTURE, AFTER SUPERMAN OVERCAME HIS MENTAL BLOCKS. So how can Doomsday be stronger than an infinite strength? And how can he get stronger every time he dies, even when he was already stronger than an infinite strength?

THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE: HE DOESN'T. Superman does NOT have infinite strength, no matter how badly you try to wank this feat.

And again, there is still all the other supporting evidence, like him needing help to move Earth, and him needing help to lift the Spectre. And btw, he tried to move Earth, AFTER lifting the Spectre, meaning that Earth DOES weigh more than the Spectre, even CONSIDERING Superman's mental blocks. thumb up

And one last thing, Superman hadn't overcome his mental blocks when he and Shazam lifted the book of infinity. Meaning that he was still stronger. Meaning that, since there is nothing greater than infinity, Superman did not lift infinite weight. thumb up


1. It is POSSIBLE (not very probable but still possible) that someone, somewhere, somehow would have written the exact same book. And since it's possible[i] it is included. And again we are talking about possibilities here not what actually happens. So if JK was killed, it still would have been [i]POSSIBLE that if she weren't she would have created HP and and a billion other things as well.

You don't seem to get the implication of the word "possible". That one word is what makes it infinite. You ever hear the phrase "The possibilities are endless"? That's the case here. One single person has the ability to imagine an infinite number of ideas and write them down. Just one person.

But it seems like you are off of the idea that we only consider current Earth bound books and that's a good start. thumb up

2. Kinda already answered this but at least we can agree that "all books possible" is a much much much higher number than what you originally tried to calculate. Well beyond anything In DB

3. Comics don't always makes sense but even tho Shazam has his power based on Herc, he is actually stronger than him. Maybe it has to do with him being magical in nature but his feats are above Hercules'

4. Yeah........ Superman from Earth 2 had just flown through a Red Sun and lost his powers. He was basically just an older man at that point. That was a very poor example

As for Doomsday.... well Strength is not durability. For instance, Batman has taken hits from a mind controlled Superman. Doesn't mean he can dish out that kind of power. And Hulk has crazy ass strength feats but he gets cut all the time. Doomsday doesn't have to be stronger that Superman to hurt/kill him. So another poor example but a common enough mistake.

Also you forget that Superman has many different writers and stories that need plot and struggle. One writer may see Superman as weaker than another and that's why you have conflicting feats. DC has addressed this with his mental blocks. Sometimes he can push himself further than other times. So to answer your question, the best way to look at it is Superman has infinite strength but doesn't have access to it at all times. That's why we get him needing help to push a moon but benching the Earth without issue for days on end. He basically is as strong as he needs to be. His strength is a plot device.

The writer clearly stated the book had infinite pages. If it didn't, they would have either made that clear or never stated it did in the first place. You trying to debunk it just shows your biased option here. You want Goku to be stronger but he just doesn't have the feats to compare to Superman's 75+ year history and there is nothing wrong with that.

Also I just realized you tried to use Cell's non canon strength feat as evidence for Goku. Even if the feat were admissible, it isn't tho, it's not a Goku feat. You can't feat swap unless you want me to use feats from Superman's "peers" as evidence for him too. That's a can of worms I'd rather not get in to


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