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Goku vs Superman Death Battle-Discuss
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Wouldn't that make the people who helped Superman just as strong as Superman? Both lifted infinity.


Yes and no. DC tends to keep Superman as their top dog. So while the others are direct peers of his, he has the ability to "step it up" just a notch higher than anyone else if the situation calls for it. I know it makes no sense but that's DC's Superman logic


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Old Post Jul 25th, 2015 09:58 PM
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AuraAngel
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There is no stepping it up from infinity lol.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 12:45 AM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
There is no stepping it up from infinity lol.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
I know it makes no sense but that's DC's Superman logic


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 12:58 AM
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CosmicComet
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Neither Wonder Woman or Shazam/Captain Marvel are on Superman's level in the end as far as Post-Crisis goes. They are 'peers' until Superman needs to be above them.

Captain Marvel was knocked out from trying to help Superman. He couldn't handle it. Superman was fine.

And then Ultraman, who is a basically a corrupted alternate universe version of Superman, lifted it by himself. Superman is >= Ultraman. So in the end, Superman never needed Captain Marvel's aid at all. Likewise he didn't need WW's either.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 01:08 AM
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AuraAngel
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Doesn't matter lol. Even if they only lifted 1 billionth of 1 percent of infinity they'd have still lifted infinity.

I don't think either equal Supes but if they lifted part of infinity then they still lifted infinity. Hard to top.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 02:37 AM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Doesn't matter lol. Even if they only lifted 1 billionth of 1 percent of infinity they'd have still lifted infinity.

I don't think either equal Supes but if they lifted part of infinity then they still lifted infinity. Hard to top.


You're trying to use real world logic against comic book logic. It just doesn't work


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 02:40 AM
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-Pr-
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Superman doesn't have infinite strength. Arguing he does based on an extreme, extremely contextual situation doesn't make sense.

He's really, REALLY strong, but tbh it's best to leave things like that out of debates, imo.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 02:43 AM
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CosmicComet
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Doesn't matter lol. Even if they only lifted 1 billionth of 1 percent of infinity they'd have still lifted infinity.

I don't think either equal Supes but if they lifted part of infinity then they still lifted infinity. Hard to top.


They lifted what they could, up to their limit.


That does not mean they lifted any percentage of infinity. Might be octillions of tons worth, but that's still not any percentage of infinity.

Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 02:51 AM
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AuraAngel
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
You're trying to use real world logic against comic book logic. It just doesn't work


Then it really doesn't qualify as a feat. WW can't be strong enough to lift infinity AND be weaker than Supes in strength(usually).

This seems like something you can really quantify. Like Buu screaming a hole into space and time.

Supes doesn't need this feat, especially not against Goku. Benching the planet will suffice lol.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 02:51 AM
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Dramatic Gecko
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Superman is only stronger than everyone around him. He can be hit with a car if the people around him can also be hit by a car. If they are omnipotent star hurling galaxy farters than Superman becomes God.


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Lets start by summoning feats.

Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 03:04 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Then it really doesn't qualify as a feat. WW can't be strong enough to lift infinity AND be weaker than Supes in strength(usually).


Or she isn't strong enough.

Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 03:38 AM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
1. It is POSSIBLE (not very probable but still possible) that someone, somewhere, somehow would have written the exact same book. And since it's possible[i] it is included. And again we are talking about possibilities here not what actually happens. So if JK was killed, it still would have been [i]POSSIBLE that if she weren't she would have created HP and and a billion other things as well.

You don't seem to get the implication of the word "possible". That one word is what makes it infinite. You ever hear the phrase "The possibilities are endless"? That's the case here. One single person has the ability to imagine an infinite number of ideas and write them down. Just one person.

But it seems like you are off of the idea that we only consider current Earth bound books and that's a good start. thumb up

2. Kinda already answered this but at least we can agree that "all books possible" is a much much much higher number than what you originally tried to calculate. Well beyond anything In DB

3. Comics don't always makes sense but even tho Shazam has his power based on Herc, he is actually stronger than him. Maybe it has to do with him being magical in nature but his feats are above Hercules'

4. Yeah........ Superman from Earth 2 had just flown through a Red Sun and lost his powers. He was basically just an older man at that point. That was a very poor example

As for Doomsday.... well Strength is not durability. For instance, Batman has taken hits from a mind controlled Superman. Doesn't mean he can dish out that kind of power. And Hulk has crazy ass strength feats but he gets cut all the time. Doomsday doesn't have to be stronger that Superman to hurt/kill him. So another poor example but a common enough mistake.

Also you forget that Superman has many different writers and stories that need plot and struggle. One writer may see Superman as weaker than another and that's why you have conflicting feats. DC has addressed this with his mental blocks. Sometimes he can push himself further than other times. So to answer your question, the best way to look at it is Superman has infinite strength but doesn't have access to it at all times. That's why we get him needing help to push a moon but benching the Earth without issue for days on end. He basically is as strong as he needs to be. His strength is a plot device.

The writer clearly stated the book had infinite pages. If it didn't, they would have either made that clear or never stated it did in the first place. You trying to debunk it just shows your biased option here. You want Goku to be stronger but he just doesn't have the feats to compare to Superman's 75+ year history and there is nothing wrong with that.

Also I just realized you tried to use Cell's non canon strength feat as evidence for Goku. Even if the feat were admissible, it isn't tho, it's not a Goku feat. You can't feat swap unless you want me to use feats from Superman's "peers" as evidence for him too. That's a can of worms I'd rather not get in to
CM also stated he taps into herc, atlas and zeus at the same time for this feat.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 07:50 AM
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yungz22
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Are people in here actually trying to argue that infinity isnt infinite lol.... this fanboyness has gone too far


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 12:59 PM
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AuraAngel
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Or she isn't strong enough.


If she helped at all then she is strong enough. Infinity divided by anything is infinity. It is exactly like 0 in that regard.

Lifting infinity isn't really quantifiable and honestly is the same vein as Percy Jackson holding up the sky(or Atlas, if you prefer to use the myth). It definitely doesn't make sense if one tries to tie it into the idea that Supes is stronger than WW. There is not a doubt in my mind that Superman is stronger than Diana but if she played any role, period, in lifting something with infinite mass then she has lifted something with infinite mass in it's entirety.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 02:31 PM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
If she helped at all then she is strong enough. Infinity divided by anything is infinity. It is exactly like 0 in that regard.

Lifting infinity isn't really quantifiable and honestly is the same vein as Percy Jackson holding up the sky(or Atlas, if you prefer to use the myth). It definitely doesn't make sense if one tries to tie it into the idea that Supes is stronger than WW. There is not a doubt in my mind that Superman is stronger than Diana but if she played any role, period, in lifting something with infinite mass then she has lifted something with infinite mass in it's entirety.


Let's say you lift 1000 tons out of infinity, sure you struggle, and the other person lifts the rest of infinity, how much did you lift?


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 03:09 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman doesn't have infinite strength. Arguing he does based on an extreme, extremely contextual situation doesn't make sense.

He's really, REALLY strong, but tbh it's best to leave things like that out of debates, imo.


thumb up


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 05:09 PM
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AuraAngel
Hegemon

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Let's say you lift 1000 tons out of infinity, sure you struggle, and the other person lifts the rest of infinity, how much did you lift?


You lifted infinity, not 1000 tons lol.

It's the same reason people can't discredit Supes for having help. Half of infinity is still infinity. Likewise, even if WW only lifted 1%, she is still lifting infinity.

You could take Superman's best quantifiable feat and take it to the 10th power and it would still not come close to infinity. That is the purpose of the number.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 05:26 PM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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Gender: Male
Location: BatCave

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
You lifted infinity, not 1000 tons lol.

It's the same reason people can't discredit Supes for having help. Half of infinity is still infinity. Likewise, even if WW only lifted 1%, she is still lifting infinity.

You could take Superman's best quantifiable feat and take it to the 10th power and it would still not come close to infinity. That is the purpose of the number.


Try to understand this. Superman is about to lift infinity and he asks you to help him do it. You put everything you got into it, you know you can lift about 250 lb. So how many % out of infinity did you lift? You surely did put enough force into it to lift 250lb.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 05:36 PM
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ares834
Knight of Ren

Gender: Male
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
If she helped at all then she is strong enough. Infinity divided by anything is infinity. It is exactly like 0 in that regard.

Lifting infinity isn't really quantifiable and honestly is the same vein as Percy Jackson holding up the sky(or Atlas, if you prefer to use the myth). It definitely doesn't make sense if one tries to tie it into the idea that Supes is stronger than WW. There is not a doubt in my mind that Superman is stronger than Diana but if she played any role, period, in lifting something with infinite mass then she has lifted something with infinite mass in it's entirety.


Yes, I know how math works. Thank you. My point was she may not have lifted any "division" of it at all. In other words, she wasn't helping in any real tangible way. Also some forms of infinity are "larger" than others.

Edit: Not saying this feat should be used in debates though.

Last edited by ares834 on Jul 26th, 2015 at 06:05 PM

Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 06:02 PM
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AuraAngel
Hegemon

Gender: Male
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Try to understand this. Superman is about to lift infinity and he asks you to help him do it. You put everything you got into it, you know you can lift about 250 lb. So how many % out of infinity did you lift? You surely did put enough force into it to lift 250lb.


I won't be lifting 250 pounds. I'd be lifting infinite pounds. Supes also won't be lifting infinity-250 pounds but lifting infinite pounds.

Do I have a problem with the idea of Supes lifting that much? Not particularly. But the author made a conscience decision to have two characters working together to lift infinite mass. Maybe they thought it would be something like WW getting 30% while Supes got the rest but that isn't how infinity works. There is no dividing infinity among any amount of individuals that will make it less infinite on each person.


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Old Post Jul 26th, 2015 06:35 PM
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