Kenobi trashes either Nihl or Talon tbh just like Cade did
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Fated, hide behind your insults, and your feigned moral superiority all you want, and even behind Aurbere and others because you can't fight your own battles, none of that, nor my debate with Sel, will change the fact that I am currently a better debater than you will ever be.
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No but I'm saying you can't judge them off of magnaguards that fought Obi-Wan in different places either. I recognize that Grievous picked specific magnaguards for his mission against Ti, in which Kit Fisto was dancing circles and essentially blitzing them:
And were taking blows from Red Guards, who while good, certainly are not even close to the levels of the Jedi:
And getting matched and defeated by Jedi who Grievous considers novices with only basic dueling techniques who Grievous managed to basically casually one shot while they had allies present.
7:10-7:35, 9:11-9:25
So if you are going to argue these specific magnaguards, though they were handpicked by Grievous (for whatever worth that is) they are still not near the level of challenging Kenobi in this manner as you are suggesting, and a comparison with the other "handpicked" magnaguards that accompanied Grievous to kidnap the chancellor completely supports that they are nowhere near the level where they'd challenge Obi-Wan.
If you would provide the evidence and sources supporting your counter argument I will counter that evidence, because so far I've provided evidence from sourcebooks calling them large as a standard and you haven't provided jack shit. Not to mention the Tuk'ata prior to even being enhanced by the first Sith Lords still gave Sorzus Syn trouble, one of Sidious's most powerful predecessors, someone who far outstripped any of the Sith race in Force ability, and someone powerful enough to create leviathans. I have also provided examples of every known encounter with a similarly sized group of Tuk'ata giving trouble to a group consisting of more than one of the Jedi Order's greatest swordsman.
Nah in the game she gets help from the Sarlaac and Felucians throughout the fight, in the Novel she keeps getting the Sarlaac to attack him, and in the comic its stated that she had the entire planet at her command and got the flora and fauna to attack him.
Yeah so? None of them even have any feats or accolades suggesting they measure up to trainee Bane in martial combat, who completely stomped Sirak (who was also trained in the use of Juyo and the saberstaff and would've destroyed Githany in a duel, who quickly tore through the defenses of a bloodlusted Sith Lord and one of the Jedi's greatest warriors), got the tuk'ata feat, and moved faster than a room full of Sith could even see, and Kas'im would've utterly stomped this incarnation of Bane in a duel. Galen's opponents prior to Ti really don't even begin to measure up to Kas'im as a duelist in any meaningful way for it to even be worth wanking Galen's dueling ability off of at this point, because quite frankly, Galen's dueling abilities displayed as of this point don't even begin to compare to Kas'im's.
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Really? Because there is a quote saying Galen's skills increased, a quote saying he physically improved, and quite a few quotes saying he grew in Force power.
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Considering that skill, physicality, and Force ability all so heavily factor into dueling, and that Galen has confirmed increases in all of these categories, with a very profound increase in power (which would tie into force augmentation, perception, precog, etc.), I quite frankly don't see how we can scale Felucia Galen and by extension Shaak off of Peak Galen or Vader in any meaningful way, and think that doing so given all the improvements Galen has undergone is stretching things.
Well obviously I'm not arguing Kas'im can near instantly stomp either of these people per se, but the fact that you're bringing them fighting much much less Tuk'ata than Bane did (while Bane was exhausted and hungry), when this is Bane at an incarnation where Kas'im can stomp him doesn't really detract from the impressiveness it scales up to for Kas'im given the degree of dominance Kas'im has over this incarnation of Bane. And yes, I do think Bane fighting off twice as many Tuk'ata in sabers only than Meetra did in all-out is a pretty massive difference between the two feats, and since Meetra at this point defeated Traya with the same disadvantages, I don't really see how this downscales the feat.
Kenobi, a year before AOTC... is a far better duelist than Bane? Would you please provide more evidence for this claim if you are going to try and use it to argue against Bane's feat with the logical fallacy of an appeal to incredulity?
Could you provide these sources tbh?
Please, you're arguing that Bane's feat can't be scaled off of other feats because the scale makes them less impressive, but your saying that even if that isn't the case its still not as impressive because the Tuk'ata's size prevents them from attacking that way... yet this doesn't make sense because by that logic its impossible for Tuk'ata of any size to challenge the swordsman that they challenge in other sources if even Bane fighting large Tuk'ata isn't enough for Kas'im utterly shitting on him at that point in time to be above Ti as a duelist.
Considering they are stated to posses great tactical intelligence even before having their brain mass doubled, they are stated to be capable of performing complex group attack maneuvers, they are stated to be fiercely intelligent, and are considered by people to be intelligent enough to speak sentient languages (though lacking the physical ability for it):
I'd say your argument that the Tuk'ata have no capability for tactically intelligent teamwork (as was the orginal argument that started this debate about intelligence and tactics) doesn't even remotely stand, as they are blatantly stated to have both good tactical intelligence and teamwork.
Considering Tuk'ata are a challenge enough in melee combat to challenge the greatest duelists in the Jedi Order on several occasions, and that Bane was disadvantaged in that encounter and had no experience or training against enemies even remotely similar to Tuk'ata, I'd say its a good enough indication of Bane's dueling capabilities for Kas'im being able to stomp him at a point where he acquired that feat (alongside his sirak stomping feat and his moving too fast for near Sith masters to see feat) to put his abilities in martial combat pretty definitively above Ti's.
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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
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Registered: Mar 2014
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Well as far as what you missed, you never at all countered what I mentioned for Kas'im in that segment of my post you were responding to.
In fact, aside from the Tuk'ata feat, you didn't ever in your entire post counter anything else related to Kas'im's dueling ability. You never countered Trainee Bane stomping Sirak, and subsequently never countered Kas'im's ability to near blitz trainee Bane.
The Marek fight doesn't stand as proof when his only prior opponents lack any dueling feats other than that fight against him, and when there has been improvement proven in physicality, skill, and force ability for Galen Marek since then, making it impossible to scale him off of a future incarnation. Then you also suggested that the magnaguards should be scaled off of Obi-Wan and that they don't vary in this instance because Grievous handpicked them, however my counter to that was pointing out the general level of the other magnaguards on coruscant, and how they aren't nearly on the level where they'd pose the kinda challenge to Obi-Wan you were originally claiming.
I'm sorry, but I just glanced through the accolade section of your Shaak Ti respect thread, and could find no such accolade placing her above the B-team as you seem to be claiming she has. She even calls some of these people the best of the order, seemingly revering them:
Now I'm not gonna blow this out of context and suggest Shaak is admitting inferiority to these people as some would do, but if you're claiming Shaak Ti is hyped above them, you're gonna need to provide something substantive to back up that claim since it already seems pretty sketchy based on Shaak Ti's reverence for the masters and the accolades section of your Respect Thread.
Shaak Ti being revered... is enough to make her at the very least equal to Kas'im? No.
Kas'im himself is consistently revered as easily the greatest duelist in the brotherhood, even by people like Githany who would be severely underrating Kas'im's dueling abilities (given that Kas'im hasn't demonstrated nearly the full extent of his abilities to his students, even with a saberstaff), and even people hilariously beneath Kas'im as duelists are similarly held in regard for their skills. Kaan who was viewed as the embodiment of the Dark Side by Githany is considered by Githany to be laughably beneath holding back Kas'im as a duelist, and Kaan was used as a simulation for the trial of skill because he was considered by Jedi historians to be one of the worst monsters ever to arrive from the Dark Side, and Kaan was stated to have worked to develop all of his talents evenly (which if this is even remotely true, Kaan's utterly insane telepathic abilities and war changing battle meditation should prove his abilities in all areas to be very considerably developed), and Kaan even before turning to the dark side was able to slay the worst of the Sith Warlords and Force the rest to beg for peace. And Kiel Charny, someone whose defenses were torn through by Githany (who would've been destroyed by Sirak, who got completely and utterly stomped by Trainee Bane, who would've been stomped near instantly by Kas'im etc.), was revered as one of the great champions of the Jedi Order, was considered by the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to be "in many ways a true warrior who epitomized the Jedi ideal."
Kas'im was also hyped as the greatest living swordsman in the Galaxy which puts him above Lord Hoth (who was considered a Jedi Hero in his teens, and the revered Jedi Battlemaster who was a hero for many by his mid-twenties, and who was considered the greatest Jedi fighter by Pernicar) and Raskta Lsu (who as a Jedi Weapons Master is already one of the most skilled duelists in the history of the Jedi Order, is the most skilled Jedi duelist alive and better than Hoth, and is personally responsible for killing over a thousand Sith Lords). Not to mention, Kas'im's technical skill is also hyped to a pretty considerable degree considering he spent years mastering all seven forms (which would also include mastering several forms to a high level as a prerequisite for Juyo mastery) prior to spending decades after that taking his skills to an even further degree until he had perfected every move and sequence of lightsaber combat.
So no, Shaak Ti was not hyped above the Jedi Masters you mentioned, and no, Shaak Ti's hype as one of the greatest duelists in the order doesn't match Kas'im's superior feats (which you haven't even addressed aside from the Tuk'ata argument), Kas'im's superior technical mastery, and Kas'im's quite frankly superior hype.
She really doesn't though, Kas'im has a considerable speed edge, and his force barrier is powerful enough to handle Shaak Ti's Force attacks. And Shaak Ti is hardly even Kas'im's equal with a blade.
Bane's TK is standard... because Sidious and someone with quite frankly more impressive lightning than Dooku can disintegrate people? You bringing up some of the greatest lightning wielders to discredit Bane's telekinesis, considering the quality of the people you are using as examples and the fact that telekinesis and lightning are completely different powers, this doesn't really work as a counter.
And "The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid" seems pretty explicit to me, and you calling it hyperbole is unfounded and unsubstantiated. If this on its own doesn't provide the feat with enough impressiveness, then consider the fact that the surrounding area made up of several tons of stone was completely obliterated by the telekinetic blast, and that the wave itself collapsed the temple of the ancients and shook its very foundations, which were stated to be far beneath the surface of the planet, and that the portion of the wave Kas'im shielded himself from was in fact the focal point
I have never seen Marek do anything even resembling that to Storm Troopers, so if you'd like to actually provide proof for that claim, I will respond to it.
And comparing Shaak Ti to Galen Marek? In all three sources Marek is portrayed as Shaak's superior with the Force. In the game Marek just kinda blatantly overpowers her with his Force abilities, in the novel Marek stops her in place with the Force to prevent her from killing him in her mutually assured destruction attempt and that's the only time either use their force abilities directly on each other, and in the comic Shaak Ti is stated to not be able to contain Galen's power even with the planet at her command, and Galen ultimately wounds her pretty severely with a Force repulse (she's clutching at her abdomen and bleeding out of her mouth and ears): (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
So even in the comic, which is what people use to wank the Force abilities Ti displayed against Galen the most, Galen was still notably her superior as a Force wielder.
Now, with Kas'im pushing a temple buster down a staircase, and actually effectively shielding himself from Bane's attack while Shaak got severely injured by Galen's Force repulse, the two are hardly as far away from each other in the Force as you are suggesting, and quite frankly I'm not seeing much of a disparity.
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I can't recall Savage ever doing anything similar to that, so again you're going to have to provide evidence, and the blast I'm referring to? Some of the B1 battle droids that got hit by the wave managed to get up afterwards, so this isn't really an effective counter either.
1. It was a pretty omnidirectional attack
2. What ****ing bridge are you talking about?! They were in a ship hangar LOL
First of all, we've seen Kas'im in one serious fight and he's made a singular appearance in the mythos, so Shaak Ti is hardly the one being unfairly treated by a lack of exploration in this fight.
You're trying to say that Shaak Ti is a greater duelist than Galen and is on par with him in the Force, yet are trying to use a fight where she had an environmental advantage and still lost as a way of trying to suggest her tactical abilities allow her to best Kas'im? Shaak Ti was stated to have the planet at her command, was in a favorable environment, was stated to have commanded the flora and fauna to attack Galen, and is evidently good enough to match him in straight combat regardless... yet the fight ended with Shaak Ti literally throwing herself on Galen's blade and losing the engagement.
Now I'm not gonna try and lowball Shaak Ti because of this and say it makes her shit or lowers her tactical abilities because I'm not one of those people, but looking at this engagement under scrutiny, it's sketchy as **** and really shouldn't be used to wank Shaak Ti's tactical abilities.
And I doubt such tactics would work as well on neutral ground (ie. less pronounced environmental factors and Shaak Ti being no more familiar with the environment as Kas'im), and against a far more experienced and skilled opponent than Magnaguards with an actual Force barrier.
And this tactic was also entirely dependent on the presence of unconventional weaponry, which is not present for Shaak Ti in this fight.
Kas'im's own use of deception as it relates to combat (concealing Jar'kai and encouraging tactical deception and cunning to his students), practiced talent at observing and understanding the techniques and styles of others, his broad knowledge and experience on fighting techniques, and his fighting style being perfectly suited to versatility and adaptation should allow him to adjust to Shaak Ti's tactics and cunning pretty effectively, especially seeing as he is faster than Shaak and the greater duelist of the two.
If that were the case, you could've simply stated that I didn't respond to something so I could go back and readdress it, instead of wasting my time by wording it as if I actively said Shaak Ti was probably faster than Kas'im, because the way you worded it made it sound like I was actively conceding to you when it was blatantly not the case.
And I did counter your argument about Shaak Ti's speed she demonstrated against the magnaguards by pointing out that Kas'im's speed shown against Bane is superior.
Quite frankly, Kas'im being capable of utterly eviscerating trainee Bane on the first offensive sequence with his speed, an opponent who utterly stomped Sirak and moved faster than a room of near Sith Masters could perceive, is noticeably more impressive than blitzing magnaguards, who were being blitzed by Fisto, contended with to some extent by Red Guards, and matched and cut down by Jedi Grievous essentially one shot while they had allies present.
And this is a speed feat accomplished by Kas'im while wielding a saberstaff when he would have a considerably higher striking speed wielding Jar'kai, based upon Jar'kai being Kas'im's preferred form, and Kas'im's own statements about the limitations of the saberstaff ("It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust.") compared with the logical heightened striking speed from having two separate weapons.
So all of this in mind, Kas'im is definitely the faster of the two.
Shaak Ti is by no means even Kas'im's equal as a duelist, with Kas'im having greater feats, hype, and technical skill. Kas'im is also substantially ahead of Shaak Ti in speed, has the skill versatility and understanding of Ti's fighting style to adapt to her tactics, and there quite frankly isn't enough of a substantive difference in Force ability for Kas'im to not be capable of defending against Shaak's Force attacks. Whatever disparity is present in their Force abilities certainly isn't as pronounced as the difference in their martial abilities, and Kas'im will inevitably overcome her through greater skill and speed.
For obvious reasons (I apologize, this ran MUCH longer than I thought it would), feel free to take as much time as you need to respond.
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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Withholding knowledge of a lightsaber form isn't cunning or deception on Kas'im's part, especially when you're trying to wank his broad knowledge/experience which utterly failed him when fighting Bane. Its more of the fact he is a pussy and can't win and had to sabotage Bane's training, but yeah his not sharing and loss at Bane's hand is totally a good showing for him
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Last edited by carthage on Jun 7th, 2016 at 06:44 AM
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
What, do you not take my response seriously or do you not expect Fated to?
ill be waiting
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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Jun 6th, 2016 02:52 AM
