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Reading Superman comics
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

Luckily He just didn't perform that feat with Super breath, he also did it with Superstrength wink

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I just remembered this feat of Superman

It is by Superman's standards a measly feat but what it caught my attention is that Dan Jurgens had Gladiator and Thor performing a similar feat, you will see what I mean

Superman's feat under Dan Jurgens (notice the plane has 5 doors and it looks like a boeing 747)

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

BY COMPARISON

Thor/Gladiator's under Dan Jurgens (notice the plane has 3 doors and looks like a boeing 737)

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

If that is not enough Here is Superman under Dan Jurgens pushing what it seems a boeing c17 cargo plane with just his super breath while saving another smaller plane laughing out loud

(please log in to view the image)


And is not only superbreath of kryptonians inconsistent is ALL the powers of ALL the fictional characters


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Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Old Post Jul 30th, 2015 05:52 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Location: United States

Anyway, superbreath has a long history of doing things that typically EXCEED the effectiveness of conventional physical strength, and almost nothing you could show or relate regarding it would surprise me.

Or rather, I suppose I should say, I would be surprised if you managed TO surprise me. There ARE a lot of DC books that have been published in the last 20 to 30-odd years, after all. And you do have a big collection.
So you might pull it off.

I'd just be surprised to find anything that COULD surprise me where "metabreathing" magic is at work.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I didn't think this was relevant to the other thread as WW was not involved on it. I think PR or Bada will eventually point that out


Pr is a moderator. As such, he has the task of insuring a certain amount of order is kept. Sometimes, that means even things that ARE relevant to a discussion must be discouraged.

Truthfully, I wondered myself where Wonder Woman came into that particular discussion. Seeing it just as a title on the lists of current topics and going to the most recent posts showing then, I thought the thread was meant to be Superman versus most any major competition without weakness exploitation. I was surprised to find, reading the original post not long afterwards, that it was actually asking for how people think Superman versus Captain Marvel, Superman versus Silver Surfer, and Superman versus Green Lantern would go.

You're probably thinking now: "See? Wonder Woman was nowhere mentioned there! She was never intended to be part of the discussion! She's off-topic!"

There's a problem with that, though. And on page 10 of that thread, Area Vet pointed out what that problem was:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet

Compare WHAT exactly? [Superman and Silver Surfer] don't exist in the same universes. They are both top dogs in their respective universes, but don't completely dominate the tier. If they did, they would be considered in a higher tier. Don't try to act like Diana hasn't gotten the best of Superman ...


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=522650&pagenumber=10


There's no way to evaluate Superman versus Silver Surfer directly.
It HAS to be done by proxy. So Area Vet chose to explore how Superman fared against other herald-class opponents. THAT's why Wonder Woman was brought into the thread. She's a fight opponent stand-in where otherwise practically no one not already mentioned in the OP's original post (i.e. Captain Marvel and Green Lantern) exists. At least, not that the average forum discussion participant would be aware of.

She's useful in illustrating what Superman historically has DONE against someone else in his class, so that Supes' strategies and behavior in a matchup with a Marvel character that Supes CAN'T possibly interact with might better be determined.

Old Post Jul 30th, 2015 06:09 PM
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Delta1938
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month") imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?


This reminds me of something in an argument we had in another thread. When I pointed-out Superman has feats superior to the Earth moving thing in JLA, you asked what solo feats he has. Well, I could give a number of better solo feats, although I feel it would be futile. I know you would nitpick and try to dismiss most if not all of them.

But, I have a question. What solo feats of strength does Wonder Woman actually have? If she's lacking the JLA level stuff in her solo title, I'm sure she doesn't have any planet moving feats. Dwarf planet/moon level? Continent? Mountain level? What are her best solo strength feats? I know regardless of what I show you for Superman you'll go into your nitpicking and ignore stuff and even go on your sketchy claim of he was depowered, but I'd like to know what feats Diana has. On her OWN.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I acknowledge that this is your take on things. Obviously, though, I do NOT share your view, else we would not be having this discussion.

For starters, it's unrealistic to think most forum participants could be expected to, or even SHOULD be expected to do THAT much reading before having a discussion.


This makes me think of the time you argued that Supergirl>Superman in part because she beat Ultraman. But, the problem with that, that's relevant to your argument to Rao, is that you thought he was a different character. As far as I can tell, he only appeared in that storyline. Which means his only feats are losing twice to Supergirl(who had some help from Power Girl). He definitely is NOT the Ultraman you thought he was, who's roughly equal to Superman.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes, people should have at least some background knowledge, yes, people should know what they are talking about, or at least should earnestly believe they do. But there's a range of knowledge that makes a person's view genuinely valid. It's not 100% or bust.
We could never discuss ANYTHING if that were true.


While it's true that it's not 100% or bust, this was.....REALLY bad on the Ultraman thing. Especially in light of the fact that you tried to demean my example of Superman one-shotting Bizarro with freeze breath because he "didn't look like the classic Bizarro." But.....this is the Ultraman that Supergirl fought.

(please log in to view the image)

And this is the Ultraman you thought he was.

(please log in to view the image)

"Kinda" different costume. Actually the Ultraman who actually has fought Superman doesn't have the red briefs as normal, as he's tearing off Superman's costume over his. But that was the best view I could find quick.

But the point was, they have such different costumes. And you immediately questioned it being the same Bizarro because he "didn't look like the classic Bizarro." But it's not just the costume, if you read JLA: EARTH 2 you'd know that's not the same Ultraman that Supergirl encountered, even if they had the same costume. I don't think you've actually conceded your error.


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Old Post Jul 31st, 2015 12:53 AM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

Before I answer your last comment

There is no rebuttal for my other comments, so I will take that as a concession or agreement, unless you want to post a rebuttal for each post

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Anyway, superbreath has a long history of doing things that typically EXCEED the effectiveness of conventional physical strength, and almost nothing you could show or relate regarding it would surprise me.

Or rather, I suppose I should say, I would be surprised if you managed TO surprise me. There ARE a lot of DC books that have been published in the last 20 to 30-odd years, after all. And you do have a big collection.
So you might pull it off.

I'd just be surprised to find anything that COULD surprise me where "metabreathing" magic is at work.


I think of the effectiveness of super breath compared to physical force is more based on Superman's or Supergirl's own physical restrain. Super breath is used as a non-lethal attack.

How do I come to this conclussion? Well that will be because I followed Superman comics for a long time

And I am not trying to surprise you nor amaze you, just educate you on the Superman topic, though I don't know if it will work as I see a biased tendency in you, but I could be wrong.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pr is a moderator. As such, he has the task of insuring a certain amount of order is kept. Sometimes, that means even things that ARE relevant to a discussion must be discouraged.

Truthfully, I wondered myself where Wonder Woman came into that particular discussion. Seeing it just as a title on the lists of current topics and going to the most recent posts showing then, I thought the thread was meant to be Superman versus most any major competition without weakness exploitation. I was surprised to find, reading the original post not long afterwards, that it was actually asking for how people think Superman versus Captain Marvel, Superman versus Silver Surfer, and Superman versus Green Lantern would go.

You're probably thinking now: "See? Wonder Woman was nowhere mentioned there! She was never intended to be part of the discussion! She's off-topic!"

There's a problem with that, though. And on page 10 of that thread, Area Vet pointed out what that problem was:



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...p;pagenumber=10


There's no way to evaluate Superman versus Silver Surfer directly.
It HAS to be done by proxy. So Area Vet chose to explore how Superman fared against other herald-class opponents. THAT's why Wonder Woman was brought into the thread. She's a fight opponent stand-in where otherwise practically no one not already mentioned in the OP's original post (i.e. Captain Marvel and Green Lantern) exists. At least, not that the average forum discussion participant would be aware of.

She's useful in illustrating what Superman historically has DONE against someone else in his class, so that Supes' strategies and behavior in a matchup with a Marvel character that Supes CAN'T possibly interact with might better be determined.


There is a magical word in that post "HISTORICALLY"

Well Mr Blue area vet try to build an argument based on 14% of Superman's history while ignoring the other 85%

Canon:

A league of one:
Wonder Woman concedes that she cannot defeat Superman even after she sucker punched him, Superman handles her easily

Winner: Superman

Action Comics 600:
Not a real fight as both are trying to deceive the enemy

Winner: none

Adventures of Superman 642:
A mind controlled Superman scuffles WW, scuffle is too brief, mind controlled Superman gets away

Winner: none
Superman had a mind controlled handicap

Final Crisis
Superman one shots a mind controlled Wonder Woman as a result of an attack that was not even directed at her

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman felt down defeated at an attack that was not even directed at her

JLA77
"Mind controlled" Wonder Woman scuffles Superman with the help of a "mind controlled" Firestorm, both fail at restraining Superman, Superman defuses the Mnemon sucessfully

Winner Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman had help from a mind controlled Firestorm

JLA96
Mind controlled Superman fights Wonder Woman, Superman snaps briefly out of the mind control and Diana knocks briefly Superman, which allows Diana to attack the crucifier, A mind controlled Superman then knocks Wonder Woman which allow crucifier to almost kill Wonder Woman

Winner: None
Superman had a mind controlled handicap but some help in the end from crucifier to kill Wonder Woman although Diana HAD help from Superman contantly fighting the mind control

Advantage: Superman

Man of Tomorrow 13
A crazed Superman fights the JLA and the Superman family, Wonder Woman was barely able to restrain Superman's right arm, Superman was 100% charged, not amped like many believe, when Superman is amped he starts emitting plasma.

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Action Comics 753
Same crazed Superman faces the JLA, Wonder Woman try to restrain Superman's left arm she was unable to do so. Superman then faces the whole league

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually figths Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman

Wonder Woman 175
A mind controlled brute Superman fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman manages to restrain Superman with the lasso, not after she gets bloody and ends up in really bad shape, while Superman is not even bleeding

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Wonder Woman 219
A mind controlled Superman fights Diana, Superman almost killed Diana with in the first two minutes of the fight, but since he was mind controlled he decides to make Wonder Woman/Doomsday suffer, eventulally Diana is able to pull the win

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Debatable canon stories

Adventures of Superman 494
Superman kills Wonder Woman on an alternative future

Winner: Superman

Superman/Batman 15 this is canon for Superman and apparently for WW too
An enraged Superman makes a short work of Diana and kills her

Winner: Superman

WW last comics pre flash point
There is another story on WW comics in which she is amped and gets a magical sword and she kills Superman. This happened in a Dream that is supposed to become true

Winner: Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman was amped

So 11 canon fights and the only times WW has won it is because Superman is mentally compromised, when Superman's wins treats her like a child, Wonder Woman has help, or KO's her by accident when she is mind controlled

It is clearly that Superman has a huge advantage and dominates Wonder Woman, Blue vets argument IGONORES CONTEX and the other 85% of their story. It is Clear that Superman has the advantage over Wonder Woman and to question if he dominates his tier based on 15% of their showing is foolish.

While in some fights that Superman has won Wonder Woman has the mind controlled handicap, Wonder Woman HAD help on those fights

Superman has won 6 fights, had the advantage on 1, two have no clear winner and Wonder Woman has won 2 fights with Superman mentally compromised

How is that not a clear advantage for Superman?

So if you or blue vet try to use this "HISTORICAL" fights to at least DON'T CONVINIENTLY "FORGET" THE OTHER 85%

Superman clearly wins and dominates WW historically and just in case you wonder winning only 2 fights with a mind controlled handicap out of 11 fights is basically winning 18% of their fights while cheating smile


__________________


Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Old Post Jul 31st, 2015 03:59 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

Salsa,

I did not respond to your other points out of consideration for time.
It is limited for me, even as it is for you.

Continuing:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El


[W]hile I agree that ... people should express their opinion, they should be humble enough to not act as if they know everything about the character based on a forum debate (not you, I mean Bluevet) there is that.


It's not my goal to provoke anyone without cause. The discussion between you and Area Vet is between you and Area Vet.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I think there are ways to have a discussion. When someone who does not know about a topic gets proven wrong he or she should acknowledge that they didn't know that, but that is not the case, they just keep moving the goal post and keep using their argument of ignorance even though they have been proven wrong, they dismiss evidence or plain ignore it and keep their arguments based on RARE showings of Superman as the known all that there is to know about Superman like for example thinking that WW is stronger than Superman based on 15% of his showings and ignoring the other 85%

That is what I meant not about his favorite color don't be silly.




Illustrations that show sharp, even absurd, contrasts are usually clearer and easier to understand. That's the primary reason I made the color joke.

(Note there ARE stories like that, though. Any Silver Age fan will be more than happy to tell you DC went there all the time.)

The rest of the questions implied in this part of the post will be answered naturally in answering your OTHER posts in this thread; don't worry.

Old Post Jul 31st, 2015 05:17 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El


VS Scenario dictates peak capabilities.
It is said that He process and retains sunlight based on his stress level,

peak capability in a vs scenario ...

means basically that you are facing
OWAW (Our Worlds At War) Superman in each fight.



For now, I'll only acknowledge that you wrote this.

Your statement

a) comes into conflict with the forum rule of having people fight in character,
b) fails to acknowledge that Superman's mindset in Our Worlds at War was all over the place throughout that series,
c) is best disputed with concrete showings from other sources and series,
and
d) will naturally be answered as the thread progresses.


Regarding "bias" I do have to point out that,
for American speakers, readers, and writers, at least,
capitalizing "He" in the middle of a sentence is a feature historically reserved for discussions where God is being referred to, and practically nowhere else.

That is probably not why you capitalized Superman
(HOPEFULLY it's not confused ),
but it's an interesting thing to see here, just the same.

Old Post Jul 31st, 2015 05:35 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I actually I don't know where did I ever said that just because Superman has more comics, he should win? I NEVER SAID THAT. I said he has more comics and he is more difficult to track than other characters


There are things implied by certain statements which are present even if you don't intend them. Proof of this? The 2 statements typed by Riv6672 in this thread on the first page. It was strongly enough implied that, without acknowledging much of anything of the specific thread discussion we'd had before, HE felt the need to address that argument.

The implication cannot be avoided Salsa. Whether you intended it or not, a good discussion MUST necessarily deal with this idea.

Old Post Jul 31st, 2015 05:52 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Bullets bouncing off his chest are... at least to me USELESS feats, come on! Bullets bouncing out of his chest will be a useful feat for THOR (funny enough thor has those "feats" on his respect tread) I am talking about useful feats and canon facts that people are not even aware of.

Like people claiming that Superman's molecular structure can be rearranged easily and in large quantities based on Silver Surfer affecting a deer molecularly, that is just ridiculous as if the a deer will be as resistant as Superman.

Facts like not knowing that Superman can mental block himself, facts like kryptonite that is not from his respective universe will do squat on him

Those are the useful feats and fact, bullets bouncing off his chest, that is funny. smile



As a default mode, I'll address things in the context of the Marvel/Surfer/Lantern thread we started this from, and this one even more so because this was a post directly addressing that.

1) Besides providing clear illustration, humor tends to lessen the inevitable tension of debate. Especially important in that thread, since it was not private discussion but moderated "debate". You yourself are fairly cordial and well-behaved, but others ...

Which is why I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.

Or re-presenting as the case may be.


2. The bullet topic is a layered one and alludes to several things I wanted to discuss. The two that immediately come to mind:

a) Diana's evolution over the years, increasing in durability, strength, and fight prowess far exceeding that of her 1980s and 1990s (read: Our Worlds at War) incarnations.

b) Fight M.O. of Superman. Who gets hit often when fighting lower level opponents. Habitually, from what I've seen.
Does his behavior change when fighting high-level, in this case "herald" level opposition? If it doesn't, he's going to be at a very real disadvantage against swift and true heavy hitters. He won't have trained to avoid their power.

3. Alternate kryptonite considerations would hold in a normal discussion.
The thread we were discussing this in context of disallowed kryptonite, though.

4. I don't know on what level Surfer's matter manipulation operates.
If it's anywhere near the level of pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, Superman wins a fight against Surfer only with Surfer's permission, even as it is Character Induced self-restraint on the part of Darkseid that permits Superman to go on living ... at least as judged by the showings on the following page:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/bat...n-prime-599347/

Relevance? Teleportation is often considered matter breakdown, transference over space and distance, and re-assembling. Note that Darkseid THREE TIMES locks onto Superman without Superman's permission and sends Superman wherever Darkseid decides he WANTS to send Superman ie Earth, his palace, and Earth AGAIN.
From what I've seen to date, only plot armor and Darkseid's own sense of honor protects Superman from a one-way trip to the heart of a red sun.

Old Post Jul 31st, 2015 08:05 PM
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Star428
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Before I answer your last comment

There is no rebuttal for my other comments, so I will take that as a concession or agreement, unless you want to post a rebuttal for each post



I think of the effectiveness of super breath compared to physical force is more based on Superman's or Supergirl's own physical restrain. Super breath is used as a non-lethal attack.

How do I come to this conclussion? Well that will be because I followed Superman comics for a long time

And I am not trying to surprise you nor amaze you, just educate you on the Superman topic, though I don't know if it will work as I see a biased tendency in you, but I could be wrong.





There is a magical word in that post "HISTORICALLY"

Well Mr Blue area vet try to build an argument based on 14% of Superman's history while ignoring the other 85%

Canon:

A league of one:
Wonder Woman concedes that she cannot defeat Superman even after she sucker punched him, Superman handles her easily

Winner: Superman

Action Comics 600:
Not a real fight as both are trying to deceive the enemy

Winner: none

Adventures of Superman 642:
A mind controlled Superman scuffles WW, scuffle is too brief, mind controlled Superman gets away

Winner: none
Superman had a mind controlled handicap

Final Crisis
Superman one shots a mind controlled Wonder Woman as a result of an attack that was not even directed at her

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman felt down defeated at an attack that was not even directed at her

JLA77
"Mind controlled" Wonder Woman scuffles Superman with the help of a "mind controlled" Firestorm, both fail at restraining Superman, Superman defuses the Mnemon sucessfully

Winner Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman had help from a mind controlled Firestorm

JLA96
Mind controlled Superman fights Wonder Woman, Superman snaps briefly out of the mind control and Diana knocks briefly Superman, which allows Diana to attack the crucifier, A mind controlled Superman then knocks Wonder Woman which allow crucifier to almost kill Wonder Woman

Winner: None
Superman had a mind controlled handicap but some help in the end from crucifier to kill Wonder Woman although Diana HAD help from Superman contantly fighting the mind control

Advantage: Superman

Man of Tomorrow 13
A crazed Superman fights the JLA and the Superman family, Wonder Woman was barely able to restrain Superman's right arm, Superman was 100% charged, not amped like many believe, when Superman is amped he starts emitting plasma.

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Action Comics 753
Same crazed Superman faces the JLA, Wonder Woman try to restrain Superman's left arm she was unable to do so. Superman then faces the whole league

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually figths Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman

Wonder Woman 175
A mind controlled brute Superman fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman manages to restrain Superman with the lasso, not after she gets bloody and ends up in really bad shape, while Superman is not even bleeding

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Wonder Woman 219
A mind controlled Superman fights Diana, Superman almost killed Diana with in the first two minutes of the fight, but since he was mind controlled he decides to make Wonder Woman/Doomsday suffer, eventulally Diana is able to pull the win

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Debatable canon stories

Adventures of Superman 494
Superman kills Wonder Woman on an alternative future

Winner: Superman

Superman/Batman 15 this is canon for Superman and apparently for WW too
An enraged Superman makes a short work of Diana and kills her

Winner: Superman

WW last comics pre flash point
There is another story on WW comics in which she is amped and gets a magical sword and she kills Superman. This happened in a Dream that is supposed to become true

Winner: Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman was amped

So 11 canon fights and the only times WW has won it is because Superman is mentally compromised, when Superman's wins treats her like a child, Wonder Woman has help, or KO's her by accident when she is mind controlled

It is clearly that Superman has a huge advantage and dominates Wonder Woman, Blue vets argument IGONORES CONTEX and the other 85% of their story. It is Clear that Superman has the advantage over Wonder Woman and to question if he dominates his tier based on 15% of their showing is foolish.

While in some fights that Superman has won Wonder Woman has the mind controlled handicap, Wonder Woman HAD help on those fights

Superman has won 6 fights, had the advantage on 1, two have no clear winner and Wonder Woman has won 2 fights with Superman mentally compromised

How is that not a clear advantage for Superman?

So if you or blue vet try to use this "HISTORICAL" fights to at least DON'T CONVINIENTLY "FORGET" THE OTHER 85%

Superman clearly wins and dominates WW historically and just in case you wonder winning only 2 fights with a mind controlled handicap out of 11 fights is basically winning 18% of their fights while cheating smile




Way to school him, Rao. thumb up


__________________
Darwin's theory of evolution is the great white elephant of contemporary thought. It is large, completely useless, and the object of superstitious awe.-Dr. David Berlinski, Philosophy
Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.

Old Post Aug 1st, 2015 12:25 AM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,

I did not respond to your other points out of consideration for time.
It is limited for me, even as it is for you.

Continuing:


thumb up



quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's not my goal to provoke anyone without cause. The discussion between you and Area Vet is between you and Area Vet.


thumb up



quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Illustrations that show sharp, even absurd, contrasts are usually clearer and easier to understand. That's the primary reason I made the color joke.

(Note there ARE stories like that, though. Any Silver Age fan will be more than happy to tell you DC went there all the time.)

The rest of the questions implied in this part of the post will be answered naturally in answering your OTHER posts in this thread; don't worry.


... OK ...


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For now, I'll only acknowledge that you wrote this.

Your statement

a) comes into conflict with the forum rule of having people fight in character,


Ironically you want to give us an example of a mind controlled Superman as IF that is fighting in character

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
b) fails to acknowledge that Superman's mindset in Our Worlds at War was all over the place throughout that series,


Not really, it estated especifically that at some point when he was really focussed he performed on a level never seen before, before that He was in character and doing the things he usually does, like defeating enemies the whole JLA cannot handle, when He focused it just became a ridiculuos stompage

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
c) is best disputed with concrete showings from other sources and series,


This is something I love about people who want to use an "average" on "average" heroes do not face dangers that pushed them to display their full power. On "average" Silver Surfer is flying on his board, on average Flash Do not run 1 million times the speed of light, on average they are not required to use their full power, but on average Superman does defeat enemies that use weakness exploitation that is on average on his comics on average he does not need to move a planet. I imagine this "concrete" showings you want to discuss will be more the exeption than the rule, but bring them on.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
and
d) will naturally be answered as the thread progresses.


... OK ...


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regarding "bias" I do have to point out that,
for American speakers, readers, and writers, at least,
capitalizing "He" in the middle of a sentence is a feature historically reserved for discussions where God is being referred to, and practically nowhere else.

That is probably not why you capitalized Superman
(HOPEFULLY it's not confused ),
but it's an interesting thing to see here, just the same.


In spanish We do capitalize He as El or She as Ella and is not only reserved for God, it is used for anyone, except for objects. If I was refering to Superman as an object which he is then I will not capitalize it, but since I am reffering to Superman as a character then In spanish I have to capitalize it.

That is a rule I got from my native language


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There are things implied by certain statements which are present even if you don't intend them. Proof of this? The 2 statements typed by Riv6672 in this thread on the first page. It was strongly enough implied that, without acknowledging much of anything of the specific thread discussion we'd had before, HE felt the need to address that argument.

The implication cannot be avoided Salsa. Whether you intended it or not, a good discussion MUST necessarily deal with this idea.


Do I have to repeat myself?

No, having more comics does not give you an autowin

I hope that is clear now

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As a default mode, I'll address things in the context of the Marvel/Surfer/Lantern thread we started this from, and this one even more so because this was a post directly addressing that.

1) Besides providing clear illustration, humor tends to lessen the inevitable tension of debate. Especially important in that thread, since it was not private discussion but moderated "debate". You yourself are fairly cordial and well-behaved, but others ...

Which is why I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.

Or re-presenting as the case may be.


OK


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2. The bullet topic is a layered one and alludes to several things I wanted to discuss. The two that immediately come to mind:

a) Diana's evolution over the years, increasing in durability, strength, and fight prowess far exceeding that of her 1980s and 1990s (read: Our Worlds at War) incarnations.


I don't see how that made her any closer to Superman level when she got one shoted by an attack that was not even directed at her, even if she was mind controlled, but lets continue...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
b) Fight M.O. of Superman. Who gets hit often when fighting lower level opponents. Habitually, from what I've seen.
Does his behavior change when fighting high-level, in this case "herald" level opposition? If it doesn't, he's going to be at a very real disadvantage against swift and true heavy hitters. He won't have trained to avoid their power.


Superman tends to take the hit and He usually comes out ok, he keeps increasing his power as needed, just so he does not kill his opponent and I think few charatcers hit as hard as Synnar (which btw didn't KO him) IF you want you can bring all his showings in which he has be KO'ed and then I will bring all the showing in which He HASN'T been KO'ed. I'm sure I will have more, way more.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
3. Alternate kryptonite considerations would hold in a normal discussion.
The thread we were discussing this in context of disallowed kryptonite, though.


OK

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
4. I don't know on what level Surfer's matter manipulation operates.
If it's anywhere near the level of pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, Superman wins a fight against Surfer only with Surfer's permission, even as it is Character Induced self-restraint on the part of Darkseid that permits Superman to go on living ... at least as judged by the showings on the following page:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/bat...n-prime-599347/

Relevance? Teleportation is often considered matter breakdown, transference over space and distance, and re-assembling. Note that Darkseid THREE TIMES locks onto Superman without Superman's permission and sends Superman wherever Darkseid decides he WANTS to send Superman ie Earth, his palace, and Earth AGAIN.
From what I've seen to date, only plot armor and Darkseid's own sense of honor protects Superman from a one-way trip to the heart of a red sun.


Darkseid is more powerful than Silver Surfer and a better matter manipulator, he disrupted the matrix of Firestorm a character known to be a better matter manipulator than Surfer. Superman has tanked the omega effect.

Superman is physically a peer to Darkseid and his Duarability is higher than Darkseid, he is NOT more powerful than Darkseid

But Superman will tank anything that SS throws at him in regards of matter manipulation, Superman has resisted even transmutation on a magical level from an elder god, So Silver Surfer will have to bring something bigger than that.


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Old Post Aug 1st, 2015 11:16 PM
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Delta1938
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Which is why I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.


I'll take that both as Diana has nothing that a Mid-Tier on their best day couldn't do solo, and you simply don't want to concede your error on Ultraman.

Outside of arguing lip service Kara got during Loeb's storyline, which ended with Superman holds back, Kara has no restraint(something you don't want to accept), you have almost nothing to argue your stance on Supergirl>Superman from debut until Gates took over.

Your biggest argument was "she's beaten every Superman analogue she's faced." If I'm forgetting any, I apologize, but I remember you bringing up Ultraman, Power Boy and Mon-El.

Ultraman as pointed-out, to my knowledge, only appeared in that storyline. So his only feats were losing to Supergirl. Twice. Both instances Supergirl had some help from Power Girl(although Karen was weakened).

Power Boy? Read every appearance of him I could find. In the fight Supergirl won, through-out most of it Power Boy was NOT fighting back. He kept saying things like "don't make me hurt you" while, well, not retaliating. And he didn't have his aura up, like he did the time he beat Supergirl before, until the end when he teleported away and decided to fight back. Supergirl won by.....literally giving a flying knee to the groin. What's that supposed to prove against someone whose best feat is beating Supergirl prior to that(starting the fight off with a sucker punch)? His only other feat worth note is generally looking better than C-List Titans, except Hawk. Who actually came off as stronger than him.

Mon-El? Well, her "win" over him was fighting until she could restrain him while Brainy made a lead antidote and one of the LSHers threw it in his mouth. And his best feat is giving her a Hell of a fight despite him dying of lead poisoning. Oh yeah, that's something you failed to mention.

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You left out this very important context. And, brought up her technically winning by restraining him long enough for the antidote to be popped in his mouth. Makes me wonder if you actually read the comic. Which is taking the point Rao made this for the the nth degree.

But to the normal degree of the point of this topic, let's take the armored Luthor comparisons under Loeb. You argue Kara was effected more by Kryptonite than Superman. I've read both storylines and can tell you this is absolutely false. One argument you made was the Kryptonite cuffs, which were adjustable and Kara set them very low so she could look impressive breaking out of them. I doubt they had much effect, and the time frame of her in direct sunlight after that and before fighting Luthor should offset whatever effect it might have had.

Your other argument is she was "exposed to two types of Kryptonite." The burden of proof lies on you to prove that black Kryptonite had weakened her, instead of merely split off her "dark half." Even if you could somehow prove it did, it only applies to Dark Kara. Not Supergirl's fight with Luthor, where she got owned. Considering how Dark Kara performed against Luthor, and how Supergirl performed against Dark Kara, it's highly unlikely the black Kryptonite weakened her.

Superman, on the other hand, had been effected to at least some degree of Kryptonite starting in #2. And the Kryptonite increased as it got closer. During this time, he fought what by all accounts indicate was the Pre-CRISIS Earth-One Superman. Who was trying to kill him. Then he fought a number of villains(which included Nightshade, whose energy showed capable of draining Superman's energy), a number of heroes, had more time elapse, and then fought Captain Marvel. Then fought him again off-panel(dialogue indicated a sneak attack) and had even more time elapse.

Then, we see he's having a hard time holding it together, Toyman noticing he's not feeling well, then Captain Atom comes in and blasts Supes with an energy blast channeled through the Kryptonite ring. And he was out. A bit more time elapsed. Then he fought Luthor. Who was blasting him with what seemed to be Kryptonite energy. Also, he had a force field, something he didn't show against Supergirl/Dark Kara.

And I'm not factoring in before this started, about Superman being shot with a Kryptonite bullet, since it's hard to determine if it had any effect by the time PC Superman came in, being under a sunlamp after it was removed. Your argument is Supergirl beat Luthor better, but A: No she didn't, it was Dark Kara, B: it's quite clear to someone who has read both storylines that Superman was far more effected going into the fight than Supergirl was, and C: Dark Kara used her powers, not just strength, more effectively. Superman simply slugged it out with Luthor, overcoming his force field(that Supergirl/Dark Kara didn't have to contend with).

In regards to raw power, it's quite clear Superman absolutely out-performed Supergirl/Dark Kara and was far more effected by Kryptonite(and other factors) than Supergirl/Dark Kara was. If you read both storylines, that is. I have. You have not.

But what did you do when I brought these up to you? You brought-up Kara's Kryptonite poisoning. Yet, that was a retcon. Which means you cannot bring that up, while simultaneously dismissing Superman performing better than Ursa, General Zod and Non at once than Supergirl did against Ursa alone, because Supergirl was "made weaker." This is a blatant, complete double standard. Either you ignore the Kryptonite poisoning retcon and concede that Superman out-performed Supergirl against Luthor, or you retract your argument that she was weaker after Gates, and concede that Superman did better against Ursa/Zod/Non than Supergirl did against Ursa alone.

This brings me to another point. Your claim she was made less powerful. You say because she didn't grow-up on Krypton after Gates took over, compared to her growing-up on a "mega gravity planet that dwarfs Jupiter" shown in SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT and that she was made younger. Due to your inability to back your claims, I used the DC Wiki to find every Supergirl appearance I could during the time you claimed that she was more powerful than Superman, and read them all. I've read her entire series up until Gates took over. I read all her appearances in SUPERMAN/BATMAN. I read her appearances in TEEN TITANS, and more. I also read a good number of appearances after, reading all of the NEW KRYPTON stuff(including the preludes BRAINIAC and THE COMING OF ATLAS), so I've read all of SUPERGIRL during that era, and the appearances she had in other comics.

I feel I've read the majority of her appearances. There's nothing to support your claim she was made less powerful after Sterling Gates took over. Your argument that she was raised on Argo City? She was in her teens by the time Brainiac came, which was before Krypton blew up. And on top of that, considering the atmosphere and artificial gravity on Argo City floating around in space, there's nothing to indicate that it wasn't a similar environment to Krypton. Which seems to be the crux of your argument that she was more powerful than Superman, having grown-up on a planet with far greater gravity. If you're going to argue that Krypton was changed from dwarfing Jupiter to something smaller, the burden of proof is on you.

For her getting younger, during the NEW KRYPTON stuff, she was of age to choose a guild, and Lana was talking to her about college. These indicate she's around 17-18. Contradicting your argument she was made 15. And I don't recall a single thing that would indicate she was made younger, but even if she was, guild choosing and college talk was before WAR OF THE SUPERMEN, meaning she was older than you say during the time you argue she was>Superman, when she performed worse against Ursa alone than Supes did against Ursa/Zod/Non simultaneously.


So, even if we accept Kryptonite poisoning, nothing to back she was made weaker after Gates, and it was removed well before WAR OF THE SUPERMEN. Also, ironic that you say she was made weaker after Gates when some of her better feats come from that period.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 02:28 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Ironically you want to give us an example of a mind controlled Superman as IF that is fighting in character



You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.

If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 11:46 AM
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Clark didn't grab her by the neck and take her for a ride with the intention of getting a power-up. He was going to throw her into the sun. Lucky for her he changed his mind. We also don't know how close to sun they were when he KHTFO either. So how much of a power-up he was actually getting we can't be sure. What we do know is that the kryptonite Diana had with her would've offset any power-up he was getting when he knocked her out with that one friggin punch.


__________________
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Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 02:24 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.

If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).


Out of the 11 canon fights, somehow I knew you will like to focus on this one. I will be here reminding you that they also have other 10 fights on canon comics.

First of all 100% sun charge is PEAK CONDITION, Not a power increase, He is fighting at a 100% power level, if you want to claim that Superman is somewhat amplified from that solar exposure, then you will have to show Superman emmiting plasma, displaying new powers or his body will be getting unusually big, none of those happened on the book. So if you claim he is getting and extra boost or an amp the burden of proof is on you. He is only at Peak suncharge if any, like I said he is not emmiting plasma, nor developing new powers and his body is not abnormally big, so he is not amped, just 100% sun charged

Superman/Batman #13?

Where Superman toses Wonder Woman like a rag doll once again?

Where Superman instead of tossing Darkseid back into earth he stucks him in the source wall?

I wonder how the sacrifice fight will have ended if instead of throwing WW back to earth he will have tossed her to the source wall, how do you think it will have ended?
Oh because he wasn't mind controlled he was thinking clearly, he wasn't in grief and he wasn't having hallucinations. That is not at all like Sacrifice

I mean if you want to say that Superman was grieving the death of Supergirl and try to peg that as equal circumstances as SACRIFICE, You might want to remember that Superman KNEW Supergirl wasn't death and it was a plan to get her away from Darkseid

Now you might want to say that becase He was seeing Doomsday he took Doomsday into the sun, because he is a dangerous opponent, you might have a case as He took Darkseid into the sun then into the Source wall because he is a dangerous opponent as He took Cyntonia into the sun. HOWEVER IN the TWO instances he wasn't mind controlled he didn't show the "tactical genius" idea of throwing the enemy back to earth as a matter of fact when he wasn't mind controlled he stuck Darkseid into the source wall and throw Cyntonia into the sun and that is NOT FIGHTING WITH A MENTAL HANDICAP.

Fighting in charatcer does not involve having hallucinations and being mentally controlled If Superman was fighting in charatcer VS Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman will be roasting in the sun or stuck in the Source wall at least.

After We finish with this fight We still have other 10 fights to see


__________________


Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Last edited by Rao Kal El on Aug 2nd, 2015 at 03:15 PM

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 03:12 PM
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Delta1938
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.


I've told you the reasons why I doubt they were near the Sun. The burden of proof is on you to prove they did get close to the Sun. And Wonder Woman's statement of "He's going to take me to the Sun!!" isn't proof he did. It's simply proof of intention. Prove that they got there before Wonder Woman kneed him in the groin.

And Doomsday will likely "experience some duress from the environment?" If you think space or anything like that would bother him, no. If you mean he'd be at a mobility disadvantage, that is true. But, this will come back to bite you if that's what you mean.....

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).


In this case, Superman actually did seem to make it near the Sun, and kept the fight there. This is where the second possibility of what you meant by "experience duress from the environment" for Doomsday comes back to bite you. If Superman were fighting in-character in SACRIFICE, he wouldn't have done the idiotic move of sending what he thought to be a rampaging monster who can't fly(thus is at a mobility disadvantage in space) back to Earth. He cared about almost nothing but getting Doomsday to pay(definitely out of character) and it was tactically disadvantageous to bring a fight with Doomsday back to Earth.

But really, him fighting like an idiot due to the circumstances are what kept Diana from not getting killed.....twice. Sending Wonder Woman back to Earth instead of throwing her into the Sun like you're arguing he was trying to do, and not stomping her head while she was down. Despite her waking up from reentry heat, she was actually down for quite a few panels after she landed on Earth. And Superman was rambling barely coherently instead of finishing her off.

Also, prove that the Omega Beams weaken Darkseid. I doubt you'll even try though.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 06:54 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider


You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.

If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Out of the 11 canon fights, somehow I knew you will like to focus on this one ...



Well, it shouldn't exactly have taken a crystal ball to predict that ... confused


I am covering what is most familiar to me. As are you.



More than this:


1. The reflection of the Omega Beams I already alluded to in this thread as one of Wonder Woman's outside-of-her-own-magazine feats.



2. If you're listing Superman top-tier opponents, or Superman opponents in general that most people know, how many are going to come to mind?

Outside of Lex Luthor, there's Doomsday, Darkseid, and Braniac.

That's about it from what the average comic reader would know.



3. More than that, this is one of the fights that took place close to the Sacrifice battle. In fact, at the moment, I can't think of any major fight that occurred any closer to the Sacrifice battle THAN our Superman/Batman #13 engagement.




4. S/B 13 was the closing chapter of the first "Return of Supergirl" arc.
In fact, much of the action, albeit in altered form, was featured in one of DC major animated films.

---


Now as mentioned before, the battle DID start with Wonder Woman weakening Darkseid with his own Omega Beams:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859474
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859476
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859482


... but then continues much as described earlier in this thread, corroborating much of what you and I have said:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859483
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859489
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859493
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859506
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859539



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #13, Volume 1
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Michael Turner
Date: October 2004
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman/Batman_Vol_1_13



Now, the question naturally arises, and too much courtesy has been paid me in the past with scans on request NOT to reciprocate with at least this much:

How do we know taking the Omega Beam deflection weakened Darkseid?

Well, BESIDES the fact that it is the Omega-Beam-struck area of his face that is smoldering with plasma marks after the S/B 13 sun battle, you can refer to an earlier battle where Darkseid ALSO got hit with his own Omega Beams:



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861799
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861800
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861802
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861805
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861807
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861809
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861810
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861811
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861814



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586





My time is too limited on Sundays to answer more than this tonight, Salsa.

You would not believe how long it took me even to type this post and collate those links.

I'll get to some of the rest of your post tomorrow if time permits.




(Of course, there's nothing besides day or date markers to mark off time on these boards, and I may well get here BEFORE you tomorrow, and thus be the very next one to respond, but ...)

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 08:52 PM
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Delta1938
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
4. S/B 13 was the closing chapter of the first "Return of Supergirl" arc.
In fact, much of the action, albeit in altered form, was featured in one of DC major animated films.

---



Yes, because Supergirl being the one primarily fighting Darkseid and how the fight ended is very close to what actually happened in the comics. /sarcasm

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now as mentioned before, the battle DID start with Wonder Woman weakening Darkseid with his own Omega Beams:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859474
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859476
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859482


... but then continues much as described earlier in this thread, corroborating much of what you and I have said:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859483
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859489
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859493
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859506
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13859539



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #13, Volume 1
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Michael Turner
Date: October 2004
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman/Batman_Vol_1_13



Now, the question naturally arises, and too much courtesy has been paid me in the past with scans on request NOT to reciprocate with at least this much:

How do we know taking the Omega Beam deflection weakened Darkseid?

Well, BESIDES the fact that it is the Omega-Beam-struck area of his face that is smoldering with plasma marks after the S/B 13 sun battle, you can refer to an earlier battle where Darkseid ALSO got hit with his own Omega Beams:



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861799
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861800
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861802
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861805
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861807
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861809
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861810
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861811
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=13861814



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586





My time is too limited on Sundays to answer more than this tonight, Salsa.

You would not believe how long it took me even to type this post and collate those links.

I'll get to some of the rest of your post tomorrow if time permits.




(Of course, there's nothing besides day or date markers to mark off time on these boards, and I may well get here BEFORE you tomorrow, and thus be the very next one to respond, but ...)


What about this makes you think it weakens Darkseid? Being hit with it hurting him? Yes, it does show to hurt him. But you're saying "weaken" as if it actually lowers his strength and durability. What in the world are you basing this on? Your scans of him being hit then it's spent? It specifically says "spent" meaning, he's used it up for the moment. Even if one agrees with the weird conclusion that it ran-out because he was hit with them, that only applies to the Omega Force, not his own physical power. Since the very scans you posted have Darkseid saying that his body is strong enough to contain the energy. Basically, you're arguing him being hit with the energy weakens him, but not his body having the very energy INSIDE him. Which is just illogical.

Also, to throw another wrench in your argument, that scene was retconned as being Desaad posing as Darkseid. I had thought it was a rumor since people said it but never actually showed it, but your link to the Comicvine Superman Prime vs Darkseid thread actually had someone give an issue reference. And yep, it happened.

(please log in to view the image)

The retcon raises some problems, but it happened. And I'm curious of how you'll change your argument with it, considering the double standards you've used before when it comes to retcons vs what the author of the original scene intended.


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Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 09:35 PM
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Delta1938
True King of House of El

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Basically, for the TL;DR("Too Long; Didn't Read") version(even though it's only one modestly large paragraph and two small ones)

It doesn't make sense that his body can contain the energy of the Omega Beams without it weakening him, but he gets weakened by being hit by it. And, it was Desaad according to retcon.


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Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2015 09:40 PM
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Delta1938
True King of House of El

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

Since Pr wanted people to get off the SACRIFICE topic derailment, I'll post it here, since it's is related to the reason why this thread was started. And I have a feeling Pr wouldn't have as much issue since the Superman boards aren't as active as the vs board.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What gets me is that you can say this only a week after one or more people from your side were temporarily banned for letting their emotions get the better of them.

Then again, you're championing a guy who claimed, on the previous page of this thread, that Diana failed to so much as turn Clark's head with her punches.

Of course, that MIGHT be true, as the only true punch I saw thrown by Diana to Clark's head is the following, and it's arguable there's not a lot of rotation of head involved here ...


Link to your scan--

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=15308790

You left out quite a bit of context. Like how on the previous two pages, she had snuck up on him and bashed her bracelets into his ears.

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

In fact, see the blood splattering out in the first panel of the second scan? Seems she ruptured his ear drums. Even if not, striking the ears like that is disorienting, due to your inner ear being your sense of balance. And the ears are simply a vulnerable spot, period. Boxing the ears hurts with relatively little force.

What happened after? She kicks his head and kicks an area on the inner-thigh that's a nerve cluster(regardless of it being stated or not in the comic, it is). THEN we have the him getting knocked down in your cropped scan.

(please log in to view the image)

So, we have Superman already in pain and disorientation, likely suffering vertigo with burst ear drums, getting kicked in the head, his leg probably effected by a nerve cluster being struck, and THEN knocked down with a punch.


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Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."

Old Post Aug 3rd, 2015 12:02 AM
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bluewaterrider
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I want to be as complete as possible, Salsa, so, except where it makes sense to put it off for a better time, I'll finish responses to you, as I've been doing, more or less in order.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El


I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a character with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going ...


Alright, by the numbers:

1. The word you want is "appearances" not "apparitions". The second word is a rough translation of "ghosts". Just a courtesy ESL note this; I understand what you meant in context here just fine.

2. What I'm quoting from you above is slightly and importantly different from the context of what we have and had actually been talking about. Which was summed up much better with your

"building a case against a character who only appears once a month [which is] way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month"

... than what you're quoted as saying above.


However, this will best be made clearer as the thread goes on, so ...

Old Post Aug 3rd, 2015 09:21 PM
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