This should probably be posted. Wonder Woman isn't mind controlled; she's had her memories of Superman stripped away by Mnemon, as has Firestorm.
Not sure "failing at restraining Superman" is all that accurate, either.
What Superman manages to do, held in a headlock by Wonder Woman, is to use his heat vision to trigger a playback device inside Mnemon that somehow causes it to "release" the stolen memories of the JLA back to their owners.
I must say, while on the subject, the JLA writers do an awesome job of portraying how truly dangerous this device can be and why. I have respect for whoever thought this story up.
You can write something like this and call ME "biased"?
Do you remember exactly how that scene actually played out?
Gender: Male Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus
Speak for yourself. I am familiar with ALL their fighs. I knew you will choose this one because is the WW fan flagship feat. I understand Everybody wants to meassure to Superman.
It sounds more like fluke or something she does not regularly performs although I believe her bracers will be able to do that after all it seems her bracers are more resistant then her
I don't see how the generally known enemies of Superman relate to this particular fight with Darkseid, but...
It shows you haven't read many Superman comics and it proves my point, there is Zod, Mr Myx, Cyborg Superman, Erradicator, Gog, Imperex, Lobo, Mogul, Superboy Prime and Ultraman just to name a few MOST OF THEM are generally known
Well there is also the fight in Superman/Batman #15, which happened 2 months after Superman/Batman #13, in which Superman easily killed Wonder Woman, don't conviniently forget that
Very altered, anyhow
I do not know why are you bringing Darkseid on "reading Superman comics" which was mainly focused on how We Superman readers are generally more well informed than say WW readers, I thought distracting ourselves with the WW fights was enough out of topic, to start bringing Darkseid into the fray, but since you are going there I will like to see examples of WW facing Darkseid by herself.
In any case the last scan is pure gold, did you noticed how Superman tossed Wonder Woman like a rag doll?
Also you have to prove that the Omega Beams WEAKEN Darkseid, I will believe it hurt him, but like it was mentioned before Darkseid is a vessel for that force, having the omega force in his body will weaken him IF what you said is true plus that it will be ilogical. Also there is no statement about it and if you want to use that old Byrne scan, be aware that it has been retconned of course you will know this IF you were reading more tittles than the casual reader.
Meh! I have no problem with a multiversal god being more powerful than Superman, not physically stronger or durable on his avatar form though, I really don't see the point on this
That is a conclusion that is based on nothing, YOU THINK DS is weaken yet there is no narration indicating that and you base your conclusion on an event that has been retconed.
If you are going to keep with this line of reasoning you have to provide EVIDENCE that Darkseid strenght and invulnerability get lowered everytime he gets hits with the Omega Beams, other wise your claim has no basis and is just wishful thinking
This no longer applies to DARKSEID, so it is irrelevant
ALSO, I NOTICED YOU ARE RESPONDING NOW, SO I WILL WAIT
Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!
Last edited by Rao Kal El on Aug 4th, 2015 at 02:00 AM
There's a couple problems here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
1. KMC fights are under standard Earth conditions.
Under standard conditions, Superman is only some percent as powerful as he is after he's spent some time directly near, (or even in) the Sun.
Maybe it's 80%, maybe it's 90%. Maybe it's less. Maybe it's more.
Whatever the case is, Superman in Man of Tomorrow #13 is NOT at the level we normally consider for versus fights. Superman even TELLS us this in the story via his thought balloons, when, after Kyle manufactures green kryptonite with his ring, he thinks to himself that the only reason he survived was that he had spent so much time near the sun (disposing of Earth's nuclear weapons).
Whatever the case, if we consider Superman as he normally is on Earth to be our 100% standard, then Superman in Man of Tomorrow #13 is 100%+ whatever the nuclear disposal sun exposure granted him.
2. You're assuming that "amping" is an all or nothing affair.
Presumably you're taking "amping" to be the so-called "sundipped" state of Superman as he appears at the end of Our Worlds at War.
Doubtless in that extreme case he appears as you allude to above and earlier in this thread. However, nothing suggests there are not states above his normal Earth levels and below full blown "Our Worlds at War" amping, and, in fact, most sources suggest quite the opposite.
Superman/Batman #13 discussed earlier for instance, features Superman apparently breaking Darkseid's arm once he has fought him for some time near the sun. Is this something Superman can do normally? Is it something he was ever able to do before that point? Looking at that thread I linked you to earlier, quite the opposite is the case, with Darkseid slapping Superman around rather commandingly as he suggests wearing the Aegis armor to combat Imperiex.
Is he glowing with plasma as he hands the pain to Darkseid in SB13, however?
I don't recall seeing this episode. It would be appreciated if you posted some scenes from it. If it's the "same crazed Superman" as fights the JLA in MOT13, however, I'd expect what I said above to hold.
For Tomorrow has Superman determined to use a device dubbed, IIRC, "The Vanishing" which Wonder Woman believes will result in his death.
She is so determined to stop him that she picks up that magic blade from Halcyon, which apparently can cut anything and anyone.
However, Superman calls her bluff. Diana is not willing to go all the way in battle. The blade is a killing weapon, and killing Superman is the absolute LAST thing she wants to do. She came there to save him, and doesn't know what to do when he makes it clear he's ready to die for the use of that device, which might restore his loved ones, the people that make life worth living for Superman to begin with.
Unmentioned here is that Superman had been changed by Circe into a monster that appeared to be half-Doomsday. And that apparently every other man changed by Circe in this series got significant observable physical upgrades, including Lex Luthor, who became a giant Spiderlike being with webs capable of ensnaring the Cheetah who earlier WRECKED Superman in battle.
Rucka made it abundantly clear in an interview corroborated by Pr as legit that EVERY governor for Clark was off, that he was going to kill Doomsday, period.
What you're talking about is an issue produced after the fight and Superman's commentary about the fight after the fact. Very little from Wonder Woman 219 itself supports the idea that he decided it a good idea to consciously prolong the fight.
I'm not sure I've seen this one.
With a blistering ambush and then a choke from behind with her own lasso. But according to the Countdown 52 comics such was used even by Donna Troy to kill Diana, if we're talking alternate realities.
I think you and I mistook what the other was talking about.
I was referring to the Superman/Batman #13 fight against Darkseid when I responded with the "Crystal Ball" comment, not Sacrifice.
Mind you, I am more than happy to discuss just about any aspect of Sacrifice (Wonder Woman volume 2 #219) that you want in this thread.
I just wasn't referring to it THERE.
No offense, but, if you think Wonder Woman reflecting crap like that is a fluke, how many Wonder Woman comics have you actually READ?
Consider Googling "Wonder Woman" and "deflection" or "bracers" if you have the time.
I'd be impressed if even half the participants on KMC's comic forums know who or what an Eradicator is.
And I'm familiar with most of the names on the list, but stop and think for a moment. I was talking about Superman charging and increasing his power before battling via increased sun exposure.
How would that help him against Ultraman? If anything, he'd want to keep Ultraman (depending on the incarnation) OUT of the sun, and think of another way to take the wind out of his sails.
Superboy Prime? Neutralizing the solar energy in that boy is priority #1 in most engagements. There's a REASON the heroes tried to fight him at night before the sun came up, after all.
Mogul? Superman moved one of their fights down to the tropics precisely so that he COULD get more sun and an increase in power to fight Mogul.
He made a point of saying that.
Taking Zod to the sun is just asking for punishment. Superman would have a better chance taking him to task on Earth and hoping his own solar reserves would permit him to outlast Zod.
Mxy is magic and would likely remain as unimpressed with sun-amped Superman as he is with regular-state Superman.
And Superman DID charge and increase his power to deal with Imperiex, something you yourself have alluded to though not posted visually in this thread several times now.
No forgetting necessary. I don't own that book.
The only reason I started reading Superman/Batman was because Jeph Loeb re-introduced Kara Zor-el (i.e. Supergirl) in one of it's early arcs.
For the most part, if she's not in a Superman/Batman book, I don't own it.
I'm not sure how in the world you'd consider Wonder Woman fights to be off topic in a thread which you yourself say is concerned with determining how well-informed Superman readers are concerning her versus how well Wonder Woman fans are regarding him.
But with Darkseid, I already explained that her deflection of his beams to aid Superman in his SB13 fight with Darkseid, was a feat that does NOT appear in her own title, where encounters with Darkseid are VERY rare indeed. It's also an unexpected proof that widely read Superman fans are likely not very familiar with what Diana can and cannot do. The fact that you can call the deflection of Omega Beams a "fluke" when Wonder Woman has a feat or two of deflecting the power of members of her Greek Pantheon COMBINING their power in united blasts illustrates this quite well.
As for proving Darkseid is weakened after telling us his Omega Force is spent, his face smouldering, his words coming out haltingly and slowly, trying a different tack and then declaring himself beaten after a few blows to Orion, peer of Superman, with whom Darkseid himself has had lengthy fight engagements, well, no I don't have to prove that.
You are welcome to your opinion. I do not share it.
By the way, if your premise were true, if a metahuman body "logically" could not be weakened by a force it generates, Kryptonians should not be able to hurt each other with their heat vision. As it is, they can and do.
This is a total red herring. Rao made it clear that he agrees the Omega Beams can hurt Darkseid, yet you argue it actually reduces his strength and durability. Rao's point is it's illogical for his body to contain energy that weakens him. A better analogy with Kryptonians would be red solar energy, not their heat vision.
A better analogy would be, I can hurt you by punching you in the nose and busting it open. But will it have the same effect as a flu that takes such a toll on your body, you're exhausted from getting out of bed? No, no it will not. The Omega Beams hitting Darkseid are the punch in the nose. You're trying to argue they're the flu, by the contradictory argument of a scene, which had been retconned(something you're very, very selective about counting) as Desaad posing as Darkseid, of the Omega Force being spent after being hit with the Omega Beams. By that bassackwards logic, if the Omega Force weakens him, and he's spent it, he should be stronger.
Also, for all your arguments of Darkseid gets weakened by the Omega Beams is why Superman beats him, what about this?
I already covered the argument that suncharged is merely 100%.
Compared to the way Superman normally is on Earth, it's not.
For the sake of argument, the best I can do if you really wanted to go that way, is say that Superman is normally some percentage lower than 100% under ordinary conditions.
But this other part you're claiming can't be agreed to just for the sake of argument. "[H]ave to show Superman emitting plasma, displaying new powers or his body will be getting unusually big"?
That's simply not true.
And here's where I don't think supercomprehensive knowledge of all things Superman is a relevant factor. Some things, Superman is bound to in general principle. For instance his superspeed and flight are granted to him, NOT because people choose to call him "Superman", but because DC has decided that he is (was) a post-Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths Kryptonian.
With residents of the former planet Krypton gaining such incredible power from exposure to yellow sun, largely in proportion to the amount of sun they receive.
Generally speaking, more sun= more power.
Note that, like Superman, she, too, is a descendant of Rao, Kryptonian DC Sun God. So any argument that Superman is special because of that is negated. Similarly, arguments that Superman "holds back" won't hold here. In Sacrifice, Greg Rucka tells us himself every governor with Superman is off. With SB13, Superman is deliberately tricking himself with the thought that Darkseid actually killed Kara with that first fired Omega Blast.
Gender: Male Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus
Actually let me correct that out
The WW topic was brought because a person who I believe uses arguments of ignorance said that historically WW has been shown to be equal to superman and that superman has never dominated ww
So I cited all their fights just to prove that an argument that is based only on 15% of their comic history is a flawed argument because they ignore the other 85% mainly because they haven't read as many comics as a superman reader
Am I missing something here? Was it ME who brought up the 10 or 11 fights you said Wonder Woman and Superman have had between themselves or yourself? Did you list them to be ignored, or did you want a response?
What exactly have I failed to acknowledge or respond to that you've presented so far?