Sidious lost to Windu and you've done everything to say he threw th fight despite no direct evidence alluding to this just your typical crackpot theories connecting dots that don't connect.
You will deny it like you deny everything you don't like despite sucking the **** of those writers in every statement they make if it serves your agenda.
Windu won. Yoda lost. Twice. They fight using their atyles and Windu won. Yoda lost.
Windu won fairly and Sidious needed help. Yoda lost and fled because he's a pussy.
Gender: Male Location: Heavens of Mystic
The Birth Place
If there was no direct evidence then how have I brought in some. Official site, official words form both, Filoni and Lucas, timings in the movies, etc.
Can't deny something I haven't seen. So you're saying feats don't matter?
Appeared to win. Yoda won the saber bout with actually less allusion to his. Mace's amp and this throwing the fight business, while Yoda just did it. Lightsaber to Lightsabaer Yoda beat Sidious. I'm going to regret doing this so much that it hurts, but....it's confirmed in the ROTS script that Yoda actually did win the duel between the two. It says he forced him to the edge and forced him to drop his saber. This is confirmed in the script and makes perfect sense to why Sidious doesn't have a saber in the next scene. Now this so confirmed by the script. He did this with no amp, or anything. Windu on the other hand had Vaapad, and Shatterpoint. With Vaapad he could only stalemate Sidious. Yoda>Windu confirmed. It hurt me to say this.
You didn't bring in any evidence just conjecture that doesn't add up.
He won the one on one fight until Anakin intervened. Yoda didn't win anything. He lost. Twice. Embarrassingly so., Sidious minus a lightsaber won. How embarrassing for Yoda.
1) I am not Korupt. We have no such informal agreement with you on bending the rules to match our arguments. I am following the rules as they are written, I ask you give me the courtesy and to do the same.
2) And you are not getting what I am saying. "Whatever you want canon is canon" is basically saying that the criteria you guys are using to establish canon via "alignment" of movie vs novel is completely arbitrary as you have already used an entire scene that contradicts the movie almost entirely (as per evidence I have posted). Heck (as per DT) the dialogue in the novel (the most indisputable metric there is here) almost never match anything in the movie. That means that all those scenes where the dialogue did not match are not canon and never happened.
"Align" would have to be something that actually explicitly happened in the movie being shown in the novel. NOT something that wasn't alluded to in the movie but can't be proven to NOT have happened (like thoughts and motivations that can't really be shown in the movie).
Essentially, people are mistaking "not directly contradicted" to "aligning". That is what my 2nd biggest problem with your concept of canonicty is.
My 1st biggest problem is that it's not even allowed via the rules here and we shouldn't even be discussing it.
And be polite, don't shout. I have treated you with respect, it's only proper that you do the same.
3) See? "Explicitly stated in the novel (that Yoda > Mace)" never happened in the movie (at least I don't remember ever seeing that). Thus it is not canon. For it to align, it has to have happened in the movie. So you should prove it using timestamps and movie script/dialogue.
Also, you initially stated it (and I quote) as:
"Wrong. We all know how Vaapad works..."
That is appeal to common belief. Next time, try and choose your words carefully so you wouldn't get called on it.
4) "Something is so proven that I will no longer present proof even tho we are debating it"? Really? That's how you go about that? That's horrible debating. If something is so easily established, present proof with movie timestamps as it should be easy. I am not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that your assertion is not backed by any proof (that you provided) whatsoever.
"Yoda and Sidious fight, they are on equal ground. Mace and Sidious fight Sidious had Windu on his back foot the first half until Vaapad."
That is not proof. At all. People back up when all the time when they fight defensively. But that changes as the fight progresses (and it did) as they go on the offense. Being on equal ground isn't how much ground you give, it is who makes the effective attacks. In which case Windu disarming Sids seems to imply the opposite
And there was never "TA-DAH VAPAADZZ!" mentioned in the movie. So we don't know the extent of how much of a role Vapaad played in Windu gaining the upper hand. Wait, are you now inserting things that were not alluded to in the movie? How can something never mentioned in the movies "align" with the movies? You are playing the "well it wasn't proven to NOT be in the movie, so I will assume it is" game?
See? This is what I mean by "it's canon cuz I say it is" mindset that I don't agree with.
Gender: Male Location: Heavens of Mystic
The Birth Place
One question I ask you. Lucas commentary and references and such things related to him does count as proof here correct?
What aligns with the movie, what is hard to understand about that. I give an example, to even clarify and you still question it. I'm not sure what else to do. If it happened in the movie it's canon right. If the same thing happened in the book the same it happened in the movie it's canon. It has to do what the movie says to be canon. There are parts in the books that perfectly align with the movie and you call it non canon. It's canon, if it aligns with the movie. I can't get more clear than that.
Well that's not your problem with me. That's just your problem with how people will perceive it. That not my problem that's there's. This is the fact, and the way it goes. People misinterpreting is not my problem. We can all handle that if it comes to that. Mine is if it aligns which means coeincides, goes directly with the movie, doesn't contradict it in anyway, its canon.
Again this problem, the Windu vs Sidious what really happened isn't apart of this. It's another discussion from the actual topic which is Jedi vs Sith in which only the movies and TCW are aloud. Also the script, and quotes and statements from high rankin people with Lucas and Lucas film and Disney.
I was emphasizing my point not shouting. Oh yea I forgot to ask. How did your friends wedding go by the way?
I've done this twice today and I hate doing it. Not your fault, it's a character thing you know how it goes. In the script,uhhh this hurts so much, Yoda did disarm Sidious of his blade. This is confirmed in the ROTS script. Windu and Sidious, confirmed equals in that moment. Lucas has either himself, or had a department go over this novel. He has seen or this has been brought to his attention. He's allowed it to go showing he's content with it being out there. This shows that part is fairly canon, and can be considered as such, as the creator of the universe has approved this for use. So Yoda disarmed Sidious without an amp. Mace needed more than his amp. Which is better?
Understandable. I woudl just take it that since it was in the novel and we are here I just took that seeing as we are all well versed in Star Wars knwowledge we all knew how Vaapad works as the factors were described I believe in the novel which aus been approved by the creator. He also did say the novels were/are accurate depictions of the movies, however not perfect.
4. Which leads to my next question. If you don't disagree why are you asking for proof which I've given above for Yoda>Widnu I believe. If we both agree you want me to prove something we both agree on? Not much sense made there.
One thing to back up when fighting defensively. It's another thing to look as if you're being overwhelmed. There's a differ me between these https://youtu.be/BvnwLLXHabg 0:43-0:45, 1:05,1:09. Now in that same video look at this,4:05-4:32 Dooku is getting overwhelmed by Yoda.
Compare the above to this https://youtu.be/YBLcxXR1PMw 0:51-1:06. Pay close attention to 1:06-1:08 Sidious has him at sword point and doesn't take the killing blow.
Again I personally believe I've explained it best I can, and the only error I can see woudl be misinterpretation on that persons part which is none of anyone's but the individuals problem since you and I are well educated in these matters.
You're just a Moronivich. I mean really. If you can't understand that there is SUBSTANTIALLY more proof on our side than yours, you're are simply retarded. I refuse to have any further discussion with you, because you've proven to be an idiot who can't accept facts. I asked you a simple question... and you skated around it again. Get this through your head... I could care less what you believe or any theory you have. That means **** all in the over scheme of things. I simple and with ambiguity asked you... Why Lucas' would in every medium he could say Mace won that fight... yet NEVER saying he threw the fight.... Yet somehow, by some form of Idiocy, you think Lucas' intentions were to have sids throw the fight. I can't even tell you how absurd and retarded that is. You can believe whatever you want, but Lucas' position on this has been crystal clear with no ambiguity. Even if you believe there's ambiguity in what he's done, there can be no question he's tried way more to show Mace won... than he's tried to show Sids threw the fight. When comparing what's he's tried to show... they aren't even close. Yet, you still won't admit Lucas' intentions probably were that Sids won. That's all I asked and you were unable to concede that point, even though deep down you know it to be true. I wasn't asking you what you think is logical and your idiotic theory. I asked if it made sense that Lucas' in every place possible has been shown to support the theory that Mace won, and never, not once, has he ever said Sids threw the fight.
Last thing, to even think he would have a department make edits for him is probably one of the dumbest things you've ever said. EVER. You've said some pretty dumb things. Do you actually believe he'd leave his creative intentions up to a editing department and then just let it be released? To even think such a thing is the dumbest thing I've ever heard on this forum. Somebody who's held the creative design of Star Wars so close to his chest every since the beginning... then ROTS comes out... and he goes... yeah... I'll just let my editing department make any corrections they see fit. I won't even look at it or edit it at all. It doesn't matter if he physically went in there and edited it or not (which he did and has done) he could turn his marked up copy to an editor and say make these changes. Those are HIS CHANGES you idiot. That is the changes of the text editor who handled it. It's Lucas edits. To even think he just let the creative design of the story to anybody else but him is just dumb. So dumb we have nothing further to discuss with you on this topic or any other for that matter.
Gender: Male Location: Heavens of Mystic
The Birth Place
I shall list them again. Official Star Wars site, George Lucas commentary, Dave Filoni commentary, all pretty concrete and canon.
Answer the questions do feats matter?
That's how Windu did his battle with Sidious. It's was 99-100% a pure lightsaber duel. Windu had a special amp, and a special ability shatterpoint( which Lucas or a department of his or both have reviewed the novel and approved it) two things Yoda didn't have. Yoda brought himself and his own skill and disarmed Sidious, Mace brought his skill, an amp, Shatterpoint, and 4 other Jedi masters. Well I mean Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord and possibly being in the galaxy from ROTS-ROTJ. AOTC-ROTJ. I would rather go with ROTS-ROTJ. Much safer.
Nice. So you have clear problems with Star Wars Movie canon.
The rules say you can't use Movie Novelisations and Movie Commentary to get a greater insight into the movies? I must have missed that part.
It seems you don't want to include Star Wars Movie Canon, (i.e. what's actually Canon to the movies), but instead just want to make your own interpretation of the movies.
You yourself posted for me the part of the rules which said Star Trek television showings can be used as feats for the movies. Yet you think the wider Star Wars Canon can not be?
Star Wars has one of the most in depth shared universes and canon rules out of all movie franchises. Just because you don't like it doesn't negate that.
None of those sources have said anything even close to your delusional be biased interpretations of Star Wars events.
Depends.
Ok so how is that on Windu ? Yoda failed. He got ko'd and Sheev laughed like a moron instead of pressing his advantage. Yoda failed to beat him despite disarming him. That's awful. Yoda should kill him---- oh wait he's already dead.
Most powerful doesn't mean most formidable and since Windu bested him he's better in one on one confrontations.
Gender: Male Location: Heavens of Mystic
The Birth Place
Or simply going for my side. You do understand that's the point of debate right. Again I never said more proof was on either side. It doesn't who has more proof. What matters is the quality of the proof. Someone can have more troops, but quality sure does a lot of damage and can even win out. I wouldn't say I skated. You asked me why and I gave you my answer. I didn't deflect, I didn't dodge I told you point blank this is why. You calling me an idiot isn't helping you, or winning you anything. Well if it were so clear then how are we here with this big debate. Why does the official site show the ambiguity of this battle? Why does Lucas hint at Sidious throwing the fight? You continue to show your, misinterpretation to a point it's unthinkable. He can say Windu overcame him all day long, but at the end of the day Sidious shows to much for me to be convinced until he speciffacly shows me that there was no throwing the fight, what so ever. Now I want you to answer this one thing. You yell and rage and do all this. How do you think the opposing side feels about you. We feel your just as stupid, idiotic, hypocritical., all of the above the same degree you think of us so again calling us idiots and saying its logical and that isn't helping your argument. You wanna look at skating around I've given you different things you've skated around. You've just patted away saying that doesn't mean anything or never answering, or flat out lied get about it? How can you say deep down I know it to be true? You're not me so you don't know how I feel? I'll tell you. Sidious threw the fight IMO. You make it sound like I'm missing out talking to you, like your some special figure. I deal Quan, having to deal with two idiots at once is to much work.
So it's dumb to say that a man who runs one of the most succeful movie franchises of all time doesn't have a department that does that I stupid. Oh lord Jesus look at where the world is going. It's highly possible he has a department to look over these things. He's a busy man with other things to attend to so its highly possible he hand people do this for him. You dumb fool. I meant that for all the books. It's a shame how dumb you are. So you're saying its complelty idiotic to say that someone like George Lucas woudl have an editing department to aid him in the editing of the book, or even edit for him, seeing as he is a busy man. Think about this for a while. I know it's hard, but just think.
Gender: Male Location: Heavens of Mystic
The Birth Place
So you admit to not seeing the official site?
Ok let me give you an example. Which is better someone who can on a normal day lift 10s of obalsiks weighing, several pounds to a ton, vs someone whose boosted by rage and can drag down a ship, can't destroy it or lift it, not even take it off 1 foot off the ground just drag it to the ground. Which is better?
Example 2. Which is better. Taking on padawan Obi wan Kenobi and renowned swordmaster qui Gon Jin, or two Jedi council masters, one being the chosen one and th of other shwoomg he can hold his own against the chosen one. Which is a harder pair to fight?
He won't get that amp against Yoda, that's the point. Vaapad requires the dark energy from the opponent to function. Even if he got any dark energy it wouldn't be enough to take Yoda since he gives off little to none. Windu is good, great even, but like you said there are times when different form and styles work, and this is a time where Vaapad doesn't work. So just beciase he dint have his LIGHTSBAER that means he should have lost? That's dumb. It's called the force.
Actually your wrong. Mace needed an amp to compete with Sidiousa mad vaapaad only helped him get to a stale te and that was under certain circumstances that wouldn't be met again on a normal day. Yoda disarmed him on a normal day. Yoda>Windu as a duelist confirmed. Also Yoda can at least content with Sidious in the force, Mace can't as seen in the movie.
__________________ Magic is Power
Last edited by EmperorSidious2 on Sep 29th, 2015 at 11:22 PM
Gender: Male Location: Heavens of Mystic
The Birth Place
So you concede you have spelling errors. Good, so you can't judge me for spelling errors when you have some that are just hilarious. I'm a better debater than you ever have been, and ever will be.
Well that's the best force feat I can recall for maul. If you have a better one I'm sure we can compare.
Abc logic works here. Obi and Ani>Obi and Jin. Maul couldn't beat both, while Dooku could, or he could contend at the same time. He also took on Yoda for a longer time period than Maul took on Sidious. Yoda is most likely the greater duelist of himself and Sidious so Dooku's feat is better.
Yoda made Dooku flee, but you are correct he didn't beat him. He disarmed Sidious without an amp, Windu and an amp and Shatterpoint. Not saying it's bad, but all of that won't help against Yoda since he won't get that agaisnt Yoda.
They are placating to their fans. The point is Lucas already addressed the issue.
Maul has competed with Windu and Sheev. Done. Dooku never bested those two. Yoda lost to Sheev so who cares ? Dooku also lasted longer due to threatening the fallen Jedi.
Windu won fair and square Yoda lost fair and square. Deal with it.
As I said I'm not discussing the fight further with you. I've made this point clear. You are incapable of being logical and rational, let alone make a concession. You argument is, well if I'm arguing with you, and relentless is, well then there must be some truth to it.. or else why would be arguing. I can't even tell you how retarded that is. People not able to see the facts and arguing (incorrectly) about something, doesn't equate to them having a real leg to stand on. Think about it, I could argue with you that the earth is indeed flat. You could name all the facts in the world that says the earth is flat. All I would have to do is simply disagree with your facts, propose some possibilities to you.. and then it no longer becomes a fact, but now since I'm arguing it, now it's up for debate if the earth is round.
The name calling is out of frustration that you can't see the obvious. To use my example above, you don't think it would be annoying if every time I talk to you about that subject, I would still refuse to admit the obvious? It is. Should I have called you names, no, you're an okay guy in reality. Which is to say you mean well and contribute. However, the reason why I call you names is why I can't continue talking to you. It's obviously going no where and just denigrating further and further. IMO you're being stubborn, obtuse and illogical about most of the discussion at hand. You can believe whatever you want, but when I see that, I can't continue.
Nobody said he didn't have an editing department. WTH?? When did I ever say that. I ever mentioned if he was busy he could have someone make HIS edits for him on HIS script. Which again though, is false as he did edited things himself. However, it doesn't matter who physically made the changes in the book. What matters is that Lucas either turned in his red marked up copy to somebody and had them submit them.. or he did it himself. In either case those are HIS thoughts HIS mental impressions. That is what we were discussing. If you actually believe Lucas had all this stuff put in the script, movie, commentary and book stating Mace won and Sids wasn't holding back. Yet secretly, his real intention was that sids threw the fight, YET never once bothered to add that into so many places. It's ludicrous to even think about how many places he could've said it. Yet, chose not to, and in fact say the opposite.
Think about it, i could even say he did ZERO editing to the book. Think about it, that has never been my point, you just got hung up on that. I could care les about edits or who does them. George Lucas has FINAL authority and was absolute in said authority. He authorized the book to be released and signed of the creative design of it. Anything in that vein George Lucas viewed it as his vision of the universe. When he read each and every line, multiple times at that, and then signed of.... he's without a question expressing his views on it. Gues what, he confirms Mace beat Sids. Just like he did in every other medium. It's simply so silly in my mind that you would actually believe that his intention was for sids to throw the fight, we just can't continue the discussion further.
Last edited by KuRuPT Thanosi on Sep 30th, 2015 at 01:10 AM
KMC Community Forums
Sep 29th, 2015 09:28 PM
