1) No. Commentaries are NOT part of the movie. The same way editor comments in comics are ignored and not considered proof. This is the Movie VS Forum, we use movie "feats" and movie proof.
The way you are presenting your data/conclusions is starting to sound like confirmation bias to me. You want to find whatever proof to support your argument regardless of where you find it and you would subconsciously misinterpret scenes as long as it proves your narrative.
This is what a good logical person would do when investigating:
Sit back for a moment, forget your preconceived notions, clear your head, review the movie THEN analyze the evidence in accordance with the rules then come back to me and debate. Proof (in accordance with the movie) should ALWAYS come first.
If it happened (and is verifiable) by the movie then it is canon BECAUSE it happened in the movie then the novelization itself becomes irrelevant because the movie is already stating the same thing and the novel is actually kinda pointless.
And if SOME ppl (not saying it's you as I know SOME ppl are reading this, too) try and weasel in "evidence" that didn't happen in the movies and happened in the novelization because the movie cannot directly contradict it (like direct thoughts and action) using a very "loose" and biased interpretation of "align", then I will have to call BS on it. Movie > Novelization.
2) Step back for a second.
First, I think you misunderstand what an "amp" is. It is something external of the character attained via prep or non-character specific means. It is NOT something a character can achieve on their own without prep or help. Being able to channel another's hatred/force/energy is not an amp (like it is no an amp for Shaw to get punched or shot by an opponent, but it is an amp for him to prep and use the reactor or not an amp for Yoda to redirect an opponent's lightning)
Second, I feel there is a disconnect with what can be considered proof with you.
So Yoda disarmed Sidious without an amp. Mace needed more than his amp.
2 things:
Yoda may have disarmed Sids, but he NEVER conclusively defeated him. The fight was a draw (and no one will argue this point).
This is the problem with confirmation bias. You zeroed in on "disarm" and twisted it to somehow fit your narrative of "did as well" when they did not do as well AT ALL. Windu beat Sids. Yoda did not. By the sole quantifiable criteria of how well they did vs Sids, Windu > Yoda. Not saying he is, mind you, (as I have repeatedly said I was not arguing this point).
Where exactly in the ALLOWABLE evidence (movie/tv series) was it ever alluded to that Windu was amped in his battle with Sids? Please provide video scenes with timestamps.
And by definition, it's not even an amp. At least not the way an amp is used in these forums (as some sort of external boost gained via prep or external help that is not normal to the character's abilities) If we go YOUR interpretation of how these 2 characters work (and I am not saying this to agree with you but I am simply basing it on your logic without using w/c does not supply any kind of direct proof) again, bear in mind this is not me agreeing with you simply taking your analysis as it is and correcting the wording (if I see anyone quoting this, I will simply point and laugh at them as being desperate) it would be more accurate to say: Yoda is stronger at base while Windu can get match him or even get stronger (as evidenced by him conclusively defeating Sids while Yoda did not) due to his abilities.
3) That wasn't proof, that was conjecture. A false one at that. A character's own abilities being able to take him beyond another person is proof that he is not below another. A more accurate depiction would be:
Yoda >base Mace. Yoda < Full potential Mace.
Using your own logic (Again, not agreeing with it just correcting it's format).
However, you still have NOT provided conclusive proof that Yoda > Mace. So will have to say this part of your argument still needs proof to corroborate it.
4) You've never taken any fighting sports have you? Me? 2 years of boxing, 6 years of various martial arts (combined, I dabbled a lot, my father was very much into self defense). This position at 1:06 is what we call a "neutral" position. Notice 2 things:
1) Sids had his arm fully extended.
2) Mace had his full footing and had a lot of room to back out/sidestep and was balanced and fully prepared.
This tells you that Mace was outside Sid's direct range of attack (without needing to take a step). And if Sids attacked, he would need to take a step forward (to put Mace back into range) w/c would allow Mace to sidestepped/back up/parry and counter. Anyone with any boxing knowledge would know this. I ask you to ask anyone if you don't believe me. Funny thing is, he actually DID take a step forward and Windu actually DID counter by tying up his hands (1:08-1:10). Seriously, the "oh shit!" look on Sid's face at 1:09 and the "Imma fukk you up, beetch!" look on Mace's face at 1:11 should tell you who actually won that exchange.
Seriously, take some boxing, take the same position (arm extended to max range vs prepared opponent) against any competent opponent and see if that position was in any way advantageous.
This was blatantly obvious (I'd dare say even those that don't have fight training), but I'm seeing your confirmation bias blind you thru this entire argumentation.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 30th, 2015 at 04:13 AM
1) And you clearly have problems following clearly written forum rules. You know that there is ACTUALLY a SW forum right? Where you can argue based on all canon? This is the movie forum, son. Argue the movies.
2) The MVF Golden Rule:
What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!
You understand what ONLY means right? Means nothing else but. English isn't even my first language and even I know that.
It made SPECIFIC exceptions on television appearances. W/c means it is specifically included where all else is excluded.
Geez, one would think this was an obvious thing.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 30th, 2015 at 04:14 AM
Will correct my own post (I'm OCD like that). Looking at the scene multiple times (as the resolution is kinda shitty so I really had to look at it carefully), it kind of looks like he tied the blades up close to the hilt rather than tied the hands up but I can't really tell for sure as 1:09 is really blurry.
Doesn't change my point, just the specifics to it.
The exceptions were not Specific ONLY for Star Trek. It was giving you examples of where there would be exceptions.
I get that you don't want to argue Actual Movie Canon, and would prefer to make up your own Interpretation of the movie Power Levels, but saying the Trek Canon rules apply here but not the SW Canon rules is simply Trolling. Especially when Disney have Specifically put out a statement themselves explaining what's Canon to the Movies.
If you think I'm not understanding the Movie Canon rules, then feel free to get a Mod ruling.
Oh don't worry I'll get back to his Post when I have time.
But I've already completely broken down his points, and he's just doing a Quanchi Trolling routine at this point, especially with the Movie Canon.
You both have no respect for Disney's Movie Canon.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 30th, 2015 at 01:44 PM
Nah, he's meticulously broken your conjecture down. Windu wins and you arguing against Disney canon is despicable. You speculate left and right and act like it is debating. Your double standards are nauseating and your role on this forum is that of a troll. You'll never change.
I argue within the rules. This is a debating forum and the rules are there to make sure debates have structure. My interpretation of who won/lost is based on the evidence I see according to the rules. If the rules change then I am willing to look at the evidence some more and rethink my stance. But for as long as the rules stay the same, I will follow them and only consider evidence that fits within the rules I am given.
That is the problem with ppl suffering from confirmation bias, you are willing to look for proof, any proof as long as you can twist it to fit the interpretation you want. Instead of first looking at the rules, then looking at the evidence that are allowable within said rules and forming your conclusions then.
I mean what part of "Movie feats ONLY" is too hard to understand? What part of "television characters being allowable (for as long as they appeared in the movies) as an exception" is too hard to understand? What part of "If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal." (such as the many times the novelization contradict what happened in the movies). Those are the rules, it's there, they're not complicated and not hard to understand (I mean COME ON!), debate within the rules or don't debate at all.
The VERY FACT that characters NOT found in movies that are still very much part of the canon (hell, even the ones found in the television series) not being allowed means that the forum prioritizes MOVIE first before overall canon.
For example you cannot use Opress and his "feats" here as he has never appeared in the movies. But he's canon. So what? Forum only allows movie feats and movie characters unless a TELEVISION character has appeared in both the movie and TV. You don't like it? Go to the SW forums. You can argue SW canon there all day long. Don't like that? Don't care. But don't whine when ppl follow these rules and debate within them and ignore evidence that don't fit these parameters.
Seriously, you'd make a horrible juror. You can't seem to get rid of your biases. Reread the rules, reassess the evidence available to you and either rethink your analysis or at least limit yourself within said rules.
And yes, already requested a mod ruling.
A bit presumptuous don't you think? The only thing you broke down is your credibility. Ok, maybe some of my faith in humanity, too.
You have no respect for forum rules. Or no comprehension of it.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 30th, 2015 at 02:17 PM
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1. Commentaries are part of the movie. They are MOVIE commentaries. TCW is also aloud here I believe.
Your own interpretation. I accept it, but it's not really bias. I can tell you. I've sacrificed a piece of my soul to say that Yoda is a better duelist. Here's proof. The script of the movie says Yoda pressed Sidious to the edge, and force him to drop his saber. This is explicitly stated in the script. Proof. This also makes sense as in the next scene Sidious is shown to not have a lightsaber. Yoda went to Sidious' office with no known amp, or help of any kind, just him and his own personal skill. Mace Windu. Went to the chancellors office, with four other Jedi master to aid him in arresting the chancellor. This woudl show, or hint that he felt he woudl need help to arrest the Sith Lord right? Sidious then jumps up and takes down the other three Jedi masters in about 10 seconds. He then goes on to fight Windu, and Windu appears to be getting overwhelmed. This would be nothing, if in attack of the clones and TCW in the videos I've shown before, that Dooku was also against opponents charging straight at him at he performed a perfect defense posture. This comes from someone whose confirmed style weakness is against strong kinetic strikes and yet he was able to easily take on these strikes form Anakin and Obi wan in a grace ful way that appeared as if he wasn't being overwhelmed. Compare these performances to Dooku vs Yoda. We can clearly see Yoda is pushing Dooku to a position that Dooku can't handle. He is clearly overwhelming him with his Ataru frenzy. I beleive this is interpretation or analysis, I suppose you shall decide I'm not sure. I hope you take it seriously. These are movies and TCW. Now to further the point, Windu as seen is going all out, their is no theory or anything saying he held. He defintily didn't underestimate Sidious, otherwise why bring 3 other council members. So my question now becomes why would Sidious not take the killing blow. He had Mace where he wanted him for a sizable amount of time for a lightsaber duel.
2) So what shall we call Mace's Vaapad boost?A regular boost? What shall we call it so we're on the same page.
That's shows there abilities as lightsaber duelist. He may not have one, but that part was more due to force powers. Yoda disamred Jim. Now while doesn't mean he's just outright leagues ahead of Sidious he would most likely take the majority over Sidious. He conclusively beat him in the saber fight, but not the all out fight.
Windu and Sidious never had an all out battle. There battle was pretty much a pure saber match. If you compare both Yoda and Windu disamred Sidious, however mace had Vaapad which allowed him to get to that point. Yoda didn't he did that without a special ability. Even if he didn't have a special ability and it was just pure saber skills, it was again a pure saber fight. Yoda defeated Sidious in a pure saber force. If it were a pure saber fight Sidious woudl have lost as he couldn't use the force like he did in the movie.
1) Just because they are bonus features in the Movie DVD, doesn't mean they're PART of the -movie-. Hell, MOVIE theaters don't show them, HBO doesn't show them. They're as much part of the movie as a news interview is. Hell, check the MOVIE CREDITS, see if the bonus DVD movie commentary is credited as part of the movie.
I mean, where'd you get such a strange notion? Oh, wait, yeah. Confirmation bias....
TCW is allowed, tho. I agree.
2) How is Yoda not bringing help and Windu bringing help ANY kind of indication of how powerful they were in comparison to each other??? Neither of them knew how powerful Sids was, they didn't have a stat sheet that allowed them to know the abilities of their opponents beforehand. The only thing this tells you is that Windu acted wiser than Yoda as he at least had the foresight to bring help and not take chances (too bad he got betrayed) and not be cocky and go alone. Ultimately, because Yoda tried to take everything on all by himself, he failed in killing Sids and ushered in the rise of the Empire.
3) Yes, the help Windu brought were completely useless, they might have well been air.
4) Wrong. Windu was NOT getting overwhelmed (a good strategy when an enemy is fighting very aggressively, also a good way to size up an opponent). He was fighting defensively. Mayweather backs up a lot and fights defensively, doesn't mean he is getting overwhelmed. Learn how fights work please.
5) Fights of other characters are irrelevant here. Especially since anyone with any working knowledge of how fighting works doesn't need to watch TCW to try and figure out how the fight was progressing. Thus your (wrong) analysis of the TCW fights is completely irrelevant. I mean, how is your "analysis" of the TCW fights even mean anything with regards to Windu vs Sids??? This is a total non-sequitor and has been a complete waste of time on your part.
6) I already covered this:
7) It's regular character ability. Standard boost, I guess. Or go "Vapaad Mace" would be most appropriate as to avoid inserting words that can end up having secondary meanings to them. /shrug Doesn't really matter. The movie wasn't really explicit on how Vapaad played into the Mace vs Sids fight.
8) They were both trying to kill each other. That's all out enough for anyone to see (we don't know why Sids didn't use his force powers, at this point we can only speculate. All we know is that he didn't until near the end.)
9) We don't know that. Speculation. Unless you can provide timestamps on when it happened in the movie as well as timestamps that point out the EXACT impact/role Vapaad played. From my end, if we only go by the movie, it just looks like he beat Sids with a nimble kick to disarm him.
Besides, it is inconsequential, Vapaad (if it did play a major role in the fight) is an ability that Mace always has. What difference does it make whether it helped him or not?
10) Yoda never beat Sids. It was a draw. He had the advantage at some point but failed to capitalize. Windu disarmed Sids, knocked him on his butt and had him dead to rights and even managed to force Sids into self-inflicting horrendous damage onto himself.
There is no question who did better in their matchup with Sids. Quit the confirmation bias and open your eyes, man!
Last edited by Nibedicus on Sep 30th, 2015 at 08:42 PM
I love how people fail to realize that Sids was using pretty much everything at his disposal. People act like it was a saber only battle. Sids used sabers... tried force push... tried lighting.. pretty much everything he usually does, and Mace countered it.
I love how people act like yoda did better than Mace... when you look at the facts
yoda was temp KO'd by an initial lighting blast
Yoda was disarmed by a lighting blast
mace on the other hand.. took it like a G and wasn't KO'd or disarmed
yoda never had Sids at his mercy
Mace did have Sids at his mercy
I don't care who people think is more powerful, but yoda didn't do better.
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Wanna know what else isn't in the movie. Deleted scenes. It's on HBO though. It's on the official release. It gives you that option to be in the movies or not. Also this is commentary from the man who made the movie so I'm not seeing why this wouldn't be aloud. TCW is an animated series and it's aloud. This so commentary from the man who oversaw and directed all of this, and I'm not sure the rules prohibite the commentary, so I'm not seeing why commentary is wrong to use here.
Yoda competed with his own skill. Mace had Vaapad which boosted his speed. I'm not sure how you will look at it, but I personally see it as Yoda can co Pete without the need of such assistance in a lightsaber battle. In fact Yoda not only competed, but disamred Sidious with his own skill, while Mace had a boost. You see the diffenrce. Mace needed a boost to compete. Yoda just needed himself. Yoda>Windu confirmed. Also do you actually think Windu is above Yoda as a duelist. So now you say he acted wiser than Yoda? Yoda is the wisest being in the mythos possibly. Also you have to think about it this way, Yoda and Obi had just sent a call out to all surfing Jedi, that if they survived, don't come to coruscant, and they needed to take out Vader and Sidious, and Obi would only get in Yoda's way. Look at the arena Yoda and Sidious fought in, you can't possibly believe, Hoda could actually fight Sidious successfully with not one but two other tall human males in that cramped pod. He wouldn't have jump room, and Kenobi would be hardly moving his saber, and once it became a force battle Obi is done and, who knows how the battle woudl hav worked out, so really if that happened, Anakin would have become his full potential and no one woudl ahve trained Luke, and if Yoda still survived, he woudl not only face Sidious, but a full potential Anakin, or no Anakin considering he was going to overthrow Sidious.
3) Sure they were useless? They sure did buy him time to react. Look at the battle. Sidious jumps and takes both kolar, and Tinn out without Mace reacting or at least kolar, and this is proven by how when he attacks Kolar, we don't see a purple blade or anything move, and the. He proceeds to kill Tinn and Fisto, all of this is within the realm of 10 seconds. You can't tell me Sidious couldn't have killed mace belfry rather than kolar, or Tinn.
4) Wrong. Fighting defensively is one thing, fighting defensively and getting overwhelmed is another. Did you see the videos timed stamped and see the difference? Dooku fights defensively, yet the only person whoever successfully overwhelmed him or came close to making him look overwhelmed was Yoda with Anakin killing. Also size up the opponent. I respectfully call BS on that. Why would he need to size up Sidious when he just killed all of the people you believed would be able to take him on and arrest him, yet killed them in 10 seconds. Then this guy, is overwhelming you and then has you in killing range with a saber to your chest and could kill you but doesn't? I suggest you rewatch that scene.
5. You use those battles as comparisons, to see how characters of similar stats, and skills compare.
6 ok
7. However it did show some sort of help for Windu, but we don't know exactly what right?
8. That's the point. Yoda had differ t circumstances to face. He not only had a saber duel, but an all out force duel as well. When I say all out, I mean both saber and force are used. Like Dooku's battle with Anakin, and Obi, he used his force powers throughout the battle instead of just his saber. Just a saber pure, saber, force only, then all out, is a mixture.
9. In the movie notice when he and Sidious are fighting at first, Sidious has him completely on the defense, but then mace is competing. Before it breaks remember when Mace gets the saber lock with Sidious, and he stares at him like "your dead now mother******". That would most likely be the moment he Inacted Vaapad as it is something he can call on at will.
The degree of power and the factors it would have. It wouldn't be the same for every opponent he fought, and also most likely would most likely not get the same amp as he did agaisnt Sidious of the two fought again.
10)Ligjtsaber to lightsaber Yoda was the victor. I know the overall battle was a draw. I'm not saying Yoda did better than Windu. However he did disamr Yoda none the less. However he did it without any sort of help. Vaapad was there just don't know to how large an extent, but it was to an extent. That's more than Yoda had. He had just his own skill without any boost.
I've been asked to step in to make a ruling on the matter at hand.
The primary issue in contention is the use of novelizations/book adaptations.
I refer you all to the MVF Golden Rule: What happens on screen is canon. Movie feats only.
I allow certain feats, for example, from the Star Trek television series because of the direct tie in to the movies.
Books, in my opinion, are waters I choose not to tread into. A novelization of, say, an Indiana Jones movie, while much more elaborate in wording and pace, is still not a movie; it's merely an written adaptation that, as history suggests, will improvise, elaborate, and possibly alter certain aspects of the movie it is adapting. The same goes with comic books, manga, and other written works pertaining to certain movies.
Therefore, the ruling is that a written adaptation of this film, as well as cast/crew commentaries made after the film has been completed, screened, and transferred to home media, will not be allowable. Movie feats only, please.
A much, much more suitable area for this kind of debate is, of course, the All Versus Forum where ALL source material is allowed.
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Last edited by Impediment on Oct 1st, 2015 at 01:36 AM
Wait... I get cast and crew commentary not being used, but you're saying commentary from Lucas in the extended version is not allowed? That I just can't agree with if so, the person in charge of everything in re: movie production, script and the creator of the universe commentary is above all else imo
for clarification i meant to include the movies and clone wars show as canon to draw upon in this debate, not any of the eu stuff or novelizations when they contradict the main canon
Well honestly, it's because there is a debate if Sids threw the entire fight against Mace. So when in the commentary, Lucas says Mace overpowered him, well, when you combine that with seeing Mace put Sids on his butt.. it's a key link and corroboration imo
1) Commentaries are not allowed man. I will refer to mod ruling.
2) Pls refer me to a part of the movie/television where Vapaad was mentioned and explained so I can review its impact on the fight. Til then pls stop using it in your argument. Provide clips and timestamps pls. Also, Windu used his own skill (whether Vapaad is admissible or not), stop asserting that he didn't.
3) Or it can be argued that they got in his way as. You need to prove that they had any impact on the fight by the criteria I've presented in the thread (see: my debate with DT), all they might as well have been air or furniture. Cuz that's about as much impact to the fight as they contributed.
4) Stop saying "overwhelmed". That never happened. There was never an indicator that he was. Not one.
Calling BS on "sizing up opponent"???? Are you serious???? This is proof that you don't know a damned thing about fighting. Fighters size up their opponents all the time. In boxing, many fighters (including the best ones, especially the best ones) size up their opponents the first few -rounds- to determine, range, speed difference, timing, style (as opponents tend to make changes to their style every fight) and how well they defend or take a punch. This is on TOP of the months (for pro fights) they have studying every fight said opponent has done reviewing tapes and getting sparring partners with similar qualities. And they STILL take a few rounds to size each other up. Take some time and watch a few boxing matches on TV, I'm sure it'll open your mind.
Windu had seconds to figure out how to take on his opponent, fighting defensively was a good way to size him up and when he finally took his measure and when Sid's offense lost some steam, he parried, countered, tied him up and told him to his face "imma keel you, beetch!". The "oh sh!t" look on Palpy told the whole story.
And again, I already countered the "he had his saber to your chest" argument. Give me a rebuttal or stop using it, it's ignorant.
5) From your above posts, I can conclude that you have no knowledge of fighting. Even basic spectator-level knowledge (in this day and age, how is that even possible??). Thus, your analysis is worthless/meaningless/garbage. No offense.
6) You say "ok" but re-use the very same argument that I countered in argument (4). Please reread your arguments next time and edit if one of your arguments got addressed in a later point.
7) Burden is on you to prove help was effective. From my standpoint, they may as well have been air/furniture (see my debate with DT on why).
8) I don't know what you're talking about. Windu beat Sids in saber combat. Sids then used his lightning on Windu and got it deflected back to his face. I would call that force usage, wouldn't you? The battle was completely conclusive as that we were able to gauge how well Windu would do in saber combat and vs Sid's force powers. Tho I will admit Sids gave him an extremely hard time with his lightning, but still he threw it right back in Sid's face and disfigured him badly.
9) Until you can provide movie/tv reference to Vapaad, it is inadmissible in this forum as per rules and mod ruling. Next.
10) See above. No boost til you can reference it in the movie/tv series.
Yes, Yoda did disarm Sids. But he got disarmed himself. He also failed to capitalize on his small advantage and ended up drawing the fight. A momentary advantage in a fight is meaningless. What matters is the end result. Was the opponent defeated? Did you do damage?
Yoda did match Sid's force powers but did no damage whatsoever. Windu not only disarmed Sids but put him in a helpless position. Windu not only defended against Sid's force powers but threw it back into his face so hard, he was permanently disfigured by the feedback and was cooked medium rare.
There is no question who did better here.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Oct 1st, 2015 at 02:52 AM
Only the new ones because Lucasfilm/Disney has announced everything it releases now after the Disney purchase (as long as the "Legends" Banner isn't on it) is all Canon to the Movies, whether it's the Tv Series, Novels or Comics. (Although the source books were not specifically mentioned and are sometimes opinion based anyway, which is why I tend to stick with the Official Lucasfilm Star Wars site).
But hey you're the mod. Your ruling goes.
I have enough material from the movies and tv series to make my arguments.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Oct 1st, 2015 at 01:51 PM
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