S66 doesn't have a point, but yeah I haven't really been getting my point across either, NGL. Been more focused with dealing with S66's arguments than my own.
Now that S66's arguments are basically the Twin Towers post 9/11 at this point, I'll mount my offensive and see if he can gather enough from the rubble for a rebuttal.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Firstly, you don't lay paralyzed and silent on a floor from having wind knocked out of you. Trust me I've had it happen to me, and seen it happen.
Secondly, they attacked after getting up. Didn't say they went flying, as they threw up a defense, whereas the TOR strike team didn't.
Thirdly, I put the attack to show that one little force push rendered non force users unconscious, whereas Revan's all powerful feat didn't, if we are taking that in game part as full truth.
fourthly, I was comparing their level of dominance over other force users, which wasn't strict TK. Thanks for continuing to tell me what I meant after me telling you differently.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
I know, real special how you've had the wind knocked out of you. Never happened to me...no, wait , I think it's happened to everyone. No one was paralyzed and the entire exchange was about 20 seconds. Again, you're just making shit up.
Yes, they did. Revan just overpowered their shields. Second, Anakin and Obi-wan didn't fall down. Otherwise, they wouldn't be leaning forward. What kind of stupidity is this? Has it really gotten to the point where you simply have to make shit up because you have nothing to say?
It didn't render anyone unconscious, you can clearly see them all standing up about 30 seconds later. And Revan's attack, as Ant as has pointed out actually killed people.
You wrote out something, and then posted something as evidence. That's generally how the English language works. Too bad you didn't present anything comparable, which is what I stated. Dooku didn't have any dominance there, and you know it. You said it was comparable, a "match" even. It wasn't. Glad we're on the same page.
What you are stating is something I already directly acknowledged in terms that of Revan wanting to kill them or what not. However, if you use such as evidence, then you must also understand that he was slowly destroying them. Therefore, you acknowledge and concede that he was indeed capable of killing them, and thus would have if not for the intervention of his Spirit. I have stated this every post I made so far and while you have made no clear rebuttal to this, you always try to seem to "dance" away from the point. It should also be stated that your rebuttal (" Dooku has incapacitated force users quite quickly and effortlessly"), is in fact not a rebuttal, just words scribbled on a page so the casual onlooker will think of it as an intelligent thought. I have never denied Dooku being capable of incapacitating Force users "quite quickly and effortlessly." However, Revan has incapacitated more powerful Force-users at the same time. This fact makes Revan's more impressive than Dooku's given he did what Dooku did - just a lot better. Such a comparison is a rather basic form of debating that you should have grasped a long time ago. I do not know whether you don't understand how it works, or you're ignorance and bias has fully consumed you.
That is correct, my friend. I'll elaborate on how this is possible. But first, I would like to make a correction. He did indeed incapacitate them (Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, the protagonist, and friends). He made them completely unable to not only move, but to call upon the Force / their available technology. He had dominated them to a stage where they were as defenseless as you are against my arguments presented here. Likewise, we already covered (extensively) on while Revan did not kill anyone (well, actually, he killed eight Republic soldiers with a casual Force push), he was in fact capable of doing such, and would have if not for the intervention of his Spirit. This statement of "he would have killed them if not for the intervention of his Spirit" is something I must have stated at least two dozen times by now. It will also be the last time, because for the future, I'm just going to quote my old posts or mock you with YouTube .gifs.
That being said, you do raise a good point. Even though Revan would have killed them, he still didn't, so what makes Dooku a difference? Even besides the fact there isn't any Spirit of Revan roaming around, I'm not proposing he's going to use a Force Destruction based attack on Dooku. That seems to be far more useful against multiple opponents (i.e. "crowd control"). Nevertheless, in the moments leading up to his Force Destruction, we saw Revan capable of doing the following:
Revan ripped through the Force barriers of Darth Marr, the Emperor's Wrath / Darth Nox / Barsen'thor / the Hero of Tython, Lana Beniko, and Satele Shan. Satele Shan had up a Force Protection Bubble (which has been stated to be very powerful) and was bolstering the teams abilities via Battle Meditation.
Revan pulled the collective team listed above, and other legendary non-Force sensitives such as Theron Shan and Shae Vizla, towards him.
Revan then instantly jerked them back away from him once they got near him, hurling everyone sans the protagonist into large pillars.
Revan incapacitated and suspended all members of the strike team (besides the protagonist and his companion) in a Force Whirlwind based attack that was of pure light or dark side energies. This made it completely impossible for them to both use and call upon the Force.
Revan slowly pounded the team to oblivion via Force Destruction, and would have been successful if Revan's Spirit and the spared protagonist had not blocked Revan's Force energy by countering it with the opposite alignment of pure energy created by Revan's Spirit.
The fact Revan's Spirit was able to negate Revan's energy proves that Revan was hardly performing at his best as well. It has been stated that the physical Revan was the embodiment of both passion and power, while Revan's Spirit was an entity of pure wisdom. Spirit Revan himself admitted that he is not powerful enough to confront Revan alone, hence why he cannot interfere in that physical sense. However, he did say he would aid the team in other ways (i.e. the example listed above, teleporting the team, and moving a large archway). If this Spirit of Revan is only a fraction of physical Revan's power, yet he was still capable of negating Revan's power, it goes to show Revan didn't unleash all his power in such an all-powerful display. The reason why? He still had to do an enormously intricate and most likely taxing ritual to summon Vitiate's spirit, which was always his main goal.
The fact Revan can telekinetically dominate the team as expressed above (the bullet points), brings me to believe he could be able to do exactly the same to Dooku. Instead, when he slams Dooku against a pillar / wall / whatever is available in the environment, he's going to waste no time to end the fight (compare trying to kill off one person versus eight - a lot different). In a hypothetical, as Dooku goes to engage Revan, Revan is going to unleash a telekinetic attack that will send Dooku flying backwards, destroying his Force barrier in the process (Revan did this to a team more powerful than Dooku over four times, so suggesting he can't do it here is silly). Once down, Revan's going to play around, and can probably Force Pull Dooku back into him in a similar style like he did to the strike team - and end it quickly with a blade strike. This is obviously one of many scenarios, but every scenario will start with Revan telekinetically ripping through Dooku's barrier, and then seizing the advantage through that. In most situations, a "two-shot battle" is more than likely given Revan's reputation as one of the most intelligent characters in Star Wars on the battlefield. If Revan can, for whatever reason, not gain the advantage over Dooku through this at the start, he has ample time to try again throughout the fight (i.e. Revan was telekinetically dominating the strike team midfight).
---
NOTE: To view the next part of the post, scroll directly below. If you are unable to find the next part, please contact me via private message or post a question below. Thank you.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
I completely and utterly disagree. Dooku has no comparable showings to what Revan portrayed here. All your examples are as follows:
Dooku dominating particularly one individual with the Force (i.e. Quinlan Vos, Solq Bulq, and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Dooku managed to push back / incapacitate non-Force sensitives (i.e. the Pykes and Zabrak warriors loyal to Maul).
Dooku managed to telekinetically ragdoll Asajj Ventress and two formidable Dathomirian Nightsisters in battle.
1.) In such a situation, dominating one isn't a comparable feat to dominating as many as Revan did. Why? Because not only did Revan dominate more, but he dominated superior Force-users.
2.) I have already addressed why this is an inferior showing to what Revan has. The large bulk of your argument is that Revan couldn't kill any of his team. Well, Dooku couldn't kill any non-Force sensitives with a telekinetic push either. But wait, Revan did. Revan instantly killed eight heavily-armored Republic commandos with a casual Force push.
3.) This one is your current argument. Firstly, it's worth noting that Dooku lifting them up and throwing them out a window is not a superior display of domination than what Revan did. Secondly, you say Dooku threw them farther. I disagree. During the battle, as you see Asajj Ventress and her companions falling from the broken window, it's evidently clear that they are still basically right next to the giant mountain that Dooku's citadel stands on top of. The distance he threw them appears to not be much greater than that of the room itself. Revan threw them across the battlefield, which was rather large. It's also worth noting that the distance he threw them was not the maximum distance, given they were stopped via walls / pillars. It's not an accurate and fair comparison to make. Finally, Asajj Ventress and three Nightsisters do not compare to Darth Marr, Satele Shan, and Lana Beniko. I don't think why this is so needs any explanation. If you disagree though, read the following:
Fantastic argument. I must admit, my entire viewpoint on this has changed given your excellent reasoning.
I'm joking.
Would anyone, or yourself, wish to discuss Revan vs Dooku in regards to dueling? I will do a "tl;dr" on why I believe Revan would win:
Revan has more experience (fought in countless battles), comparable technical mastery (mastered all forms of lightsaber combat to the highest pinnacle), far greater Force reserves and augmentation (i.e. speed, strength, accuracy, etc.), and greater accomplishments (i.e. being said to be the greatest warrior in Mandalorian history, etc.). He also proven himself to be a much more dominating combatant (i.e. the purges on Manaan, Korriban, Rakata, and the Star Forge) with endurance and durability that is nearly unrivaled in all of lore. Finally, Revan's unique Battle Precognition that is said to predict entire wars in advance will grant him an even further edge on a field he is already, clearly, dominating.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Revan destroys Dooku as hard as I just destroyed you.
---
DISCLAIMER: There will be typos throughout the post. If they ever reach a point where you don't understand the overall theme, please contact me via private message or post a question below. Thank you.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: It involves possibly the greatest conquest of your life. I'm not kidding. Like, you'd be in the ultimate pantheon of debating history if you go through with this.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Indeed it is. Now, in a one on one chat with Ant perhaps you can tell him that I never ever said Revan was unable to kill him, and that therefore he's using the term concession wrong. I was merely stating that a within a protracted attack, not to mention a lengthy engagement, including the long attack, he failed to kill or incapacitate any of them (render unconscious, in this case), or whatever his intent was. He failed, period. Revan's good spirit is irrelevant when discussing the length of the attack, before his intervention, unless his spirit was diminishing the entire fight? If that's the case, I'd rather hear it from you if you don't mind. And also, that if Dooku can so casually dominate the likes of Ventress effortlessly and quickly, or dominate her and two other nightsisters simultaneously despite his handicaps, then it stands to reason that dominating a larger group with a much stronger and longer attack is well within his ability, especially when the force users he's so easily downed have better showing than Shan or any individual on the TOR strike team. Logic dictates that when something is done so easily, that shouldn't be accepted as the pinnacle of one's performance, or anywhere near close to it.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Oct 6th, 2015 10:28 PM
Spitting dem bars harder than JuyoMaster
