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Supernatural Season 11
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Surtur
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I would not call it a retcon..it's just their origins were fleshed out more. Especially since it just made sense since they are the souls of people who went to hell. Just like ghosts are the souls of people who didn't go to heaven or hell.

I did take issue with the whole "destroy their bones" thing working on demons. For me it made more sense for ghosts because they were sort of bound here and didn't want to leave. It also makes me wonder if you sold your soul and then when you are killed by hell hounds..if they salt and then burn your bones do you still go to hell?

Also notice people sell their souls for really shitty things? At least ask for super powers, not to be really good at being an architect or something.


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Last edited by Surtur on Nov 13th, 2015 at 05:12 PM

Old Post Nov 13th, 2015 05:07 PM
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wakkawakkawakka
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The salt/burning bones working on demons is pretty dumb. Though that whole thing was just an excuse to flesh out Crowley's character and kind of annoyed that its a staple now.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2015 06:07 PM
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TheVaultDweller
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Based on Sam's own admission though, Dean is the better hunter. Dean certainly has the better kill list. Admittedly, my memory of earlier seasons has some holes, but the only really big bads I can remember Sam killing were Lilith and Alastair. In comparison, Dean took out Azazel, Zachariah, Dick Roman, Eve, Abaddon, Cain and even Death. Dean has also solo'd entire vampire nests on his own before, and survived a year in Purgatory. There is a reason Dean is the one people/monsters generally seem more afraid of.

I'd argue Sam's best feat is a willpower feat, when he briefly overcame Lucifer to pull him and Michael into the cage.

One thing that does bug me a little bit is that the brothers are sitting on a giant magical arsenal of spells and things, yet make no efforts to learn any of it. James Frampton showed that magic can be used without the person being corrupted, and the brothers are happy to cast spells when they really need to. Seems like they are wasting a lot of useful resources.


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Last edited by TheVaultDweller on Nov 13th, 2015 at 06:26 PM

Old Post Nov 13th, 2015 06:19 PM
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TheVaultDweller
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Location: A vault... duh...

I am not suggesting they go full Rowena or anything but, considering how often they end up looking for people or items, you'd think that they would have taught themselves some basic scrying/tracking spells by now.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2015 06:54 PM
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Surtur
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But the thing is all those things Dean did he either did through trickery or plot device. Dean is always in the right place at the right time, but he's not actually better if you really think about it.

I mean come on, just look at the first person on your list. What happened? Dean was getting owned, then John's ghost temporarily grabbed onto the YED and allowed Dean to get the *one object* that could kill him and shoot him. That's really a feat more for the colt, Dean just happened to be there.


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Last edited by Surtur on Nov 13th, 2015 at 09:07 PM

Old Post Nov 13th, 2015 09:01 PM
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Mindset
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I am not suggesting they go full Rowena or anything but, considering how often they end up looking for people or items, you'd think that they would have taught themselves some basic scrying/tracking spells by now.
If you've been doing something for decades and it works, why change?

And it's just a mindset thing, there was always a divide between the Men of Letters and hunters. They are trained hunters, so that's what they do, hunt.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2015 09:21 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
But the thing is all those things Dean did he either did through trickery or plot device. Dean is always in the right place at the right time, but he's not actually better if you really think about it.

I mean come on, just look at the first person on your list. What happened? Dean was getting owned, then John's ghost temporarily grabbed onto the YED and allowed Dean to get the *one object* that could kill him and shoot him. That's really a feat more for the colt, Dean just happened to be there.


Dean has flat out Batman'd several villains though. He is the better hunter imo, but it should also be remembered that he does have more experience due to Sam going off to try to have a normal life.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2015 09:25 PM
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Flyattractor
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What happened to Crowley's Mom?.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2015 02:13 AM
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TheVaultDweller
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
But the thing is all those things Dean did he either did through trickery or plot device. Dean is always in the right place at the right time, but he's not actually better if you really think about it.

I mean come on, just look at the first person on your list. What happened? Dean was getting owned, then John's ghost temporarily grabbed onto the YED and allowed Dean to get the *one object* that could kill him and shoot him. That's really a feat more for the colt, Dean just happened to be there.


True, but at the same time, Sam was hopped up on Demon Juice when he took out both Lilith and Alastair, so he had a huge advantage there as well.

The Colt was opportunity yes, but a lot of the others weren't. For example, it was Dean's plan to swallow the phoenix ashes and trick Eve into biting him. And he had to first earn Cain's respect to get the mark, and then defeated both knights of hell individually. And as mentioned, Sam himself has said that Dean is a better hunter than he is. Hell, IIRC, Dean is even better than John in Sam's opinion.

Both are formidable, but Dean has more consistent showings of pulling off the big important things than Sam does. But again, as we all seemingly agree, neither of them should be so formidable that they can take on 3 demons at once with little more than handcuffs, magical ones or not.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2015 04:04 AM
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TheVaultDweller
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Location: A vault... duh...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindset
If you've been doing something for decades and it works, why change?

And it's just a mindset thing, there was always a divide between the Men of Letters and hunters. They are trained hunters, so that's what they do, hunt.


I get the whole "If it isn't broke, then don't fix it" idea. But I still feel like they could make their lives and job a lot easier if they simply expanded their basic magical knowledge and arsenal. For example, why did they never ask Kevin to teach them how to make those demon killing bombs? Seems like those would be extremely useful.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2015 04:07 AM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
True, but at the same time, Sam was hopped up on Demon Juice when he took out both Lilith and Alastair, so he had a huge advantage there as well.


Well yeah those aren't things I am going to cite for Sam. Sam did a good job fighting vamp Gordon and stuff though.

quote:
The Colt was opportunity yes, but a lot of the others weren't. For example, it was Dean's plan to swallow the phoenix ashes and trick Eve into biting him. And he had to first earn Cain's respect to get the mark, and then defeated both knights of hell individually. And as mentioned, Sam himself has said that Dean is a better hunter than he is. Hell, IIRC, Dean is even better than John in Sam's opinion.


Dean came up with a good plan to defeat Eve yeah, but they have both come up with good plans for defeating people.

I am not trying to take credit away from Dean, just saying that a lot of the things weren't things that would necessarily be stuff Sam couldn't of done.

quote:
both are formidable, but Dean has more consistent showings of pulling off the big important things than Sam does. But again, as we all seemingly agree, neither of them should be so formidable that they can take on 3 demons at once with little more than handcuffs, magical ones or not.


I know, but a lot of those big important things you talk about were not truly Dean. Dean was involved, but it wasn't just him.

I think both have come up with good schemes and iced bad guys and all that stuff. I guess if anything they are equal. Dean consistently gets a big win with help, but on average the effectiveness of them seems to wax and wane depending on the episode and the season.

Sam also looks up to Dean..of course he thinks Dean is better.


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Old Post Nov 15th, 2015 10:39 PM
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Mindset
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Dean is better than Sam.

This is a Supernatural fact.


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Old Post Nov 15th, 2015 11:20 PM
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Surtur
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I guess we can agree to disagree, but I think the way to beat Amara will be Dean having to die. It would be a better explanation as to why she saved Dean from Crowley.


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Old Post Nov 16th, 2015 03:45 PM
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TheVaultDweller
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Well, I will say that the Winchesters are both pretty boss in the show, except the times when PIS/CIS requires them to get clobbered over the head and tied to something, so that one of the guest stars of the episode can have some epiphany, find inner strength, and save them. Sam was pretty boss that time he killed a hell hound one-on-one though, considering you can't even see those f****** normally.


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Old Post Nov 17th, 2015 04:08 AM
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Surtur
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I mean I think Sam was good when he killed Gordon too. Also remember the second Trickster episode. Sam was on his own for months before time was rewound and Dean came back. We hear Sam was taking out entire vamp nests alone, etc.


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Old Post Nov 17th, 2015 04:41 PM
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Surtur
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Probably the weakest episode so far this season. Sam is kind of a dick though with the whole "the fat soccer mom?" comment.

Though it had me wondering if the person that contacted Sam in his visions was not Lucifer, but maybe the YED who somehow returned from the dead? Think about it, the "I could never fool you" line makes even more sense coming from YED then it does Lucifer. Remember when Sam got his visions in the past it usually had to do with the YED.

We also know the YED worked for Lucifer and wanted him free, so maybe he is trying to manipulate Sam into opening up the cage again to free Lucifer? By making him think Lucifer could help with the Darkness. Though I guess it is more likely it is just Lucifer himself doing it.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2015 12:34 PM
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80sBaby
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I like this season better than the past 2-3 seasons but this show still needs to end soon. The repetition is killing me.


And Sam is a better hunter than Dean. Not even talking about his solo kills but he's much better at research, which would make a huge difference. Dean's cooler/more popular though, so he gets lip service.

Old Post Nov 20th, 2015 02:45 PM
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Mindset
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Completely wrong.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2015 03:16 PM
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80sBaby
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So Dean's a better researcher than Sam, research isn't important and Dean's not cooler/more popular? Really?

Old Post Nov 20th, 2015 03:31 PM
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MF DELPH
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Sam's smarter, but Dean's more lethal and more likely to get the job done, particularly when things get messy. It's like picking Ryu or Ken.


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Old Post Nov 20th, 2015 04:16 PM
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