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Who's more durable, Cell Juniors or Frieza?
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
Since when is "people online" a valid source? We know from official sources that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Therefore we also know that no one doubled the power of SSJ1 until Gohan did against Cell. It's really that simple


Super Saiyan 1 doesn't have a set power level though. Super Saiyan 1 Gohan during the time he fought Cell was>>>>Super Saiyan 1 Goku that fought Frieza. You can't use the lowest level of Super Saiyan to judge how powerful a Super Saiyan 2 is.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 04:30 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Super Saiyan 1 doesn't have a set power level though. Super Saiyan 1 Gohan during the time he fought Cell was>>>>Super Saiyan 1 Goku that fought Frieza. You can't use the lowest level of Super Saiyan to judge how powerful a Super Saiyan 2 is.


I realize that but again the gains they received were less than you think.

Goku did not double his power between Frieza and Cell. His power grew a shit ton but it was still less than double his Namek SSJ self. There is literally nothing that shows otherwise


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 04:36 PM
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NewGuy01
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If anything doesn't make sense it's SSJ being a 50x amp in the first place. SSJ2 is just fine as-is.

Also, between his base stats increasing and further perfection of the SSJ transformation, I'd say Trunks' PL multiplying is more than reasonable. Don't assume all SSJ's are equal by virtue of being SSJ.

Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 04:36 PM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
I realize that but again the gains they received were less than you think.

Goku did not double his power between Frieza and Cell. His power grew a shit ton but it was still less than double his Namek SSJ self. There is literally nothing that shows otherwise


Disagree. Goku trained a lot, a hellava lot for it not to be doubled to what it was before. Piccolo became stronger after his training in the chamber (remember, he was greater than a Super Saiyan before entering the chamber) and he was still fodder to Goku who didn't even go Super Saiyan 2 during the Cell games. I feel safe at saying Gohan Super Saiyan 2 is at the minimum 5 times greater than Goku SSJ form during the Namek saga.


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Last edited by carver9 on Oct 30th, 2015 at 04:52 PM

Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 04:43 PM
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NewGuy01
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5x actually might be ridiculous lowballing ngl.

Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 05:02 PM
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Hence the problem with numbers.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 05:05 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
If anything doesn't make sense it's SSJ being a 50x amp in the first place. SSJ2 is just fine as-is.

Also, between his base stats increasing and further perfection of the SSJ transformation, I'd say Trunks' PL multiplying is more than reasonable. Don't assume all SSJ's are equal by virtue of being SSJ.


The problem with that is if doubling and tripling their SSJ power was so common then there wouldn't have been the outright shock and awe when Gohan only doubled his power against Cell

quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Disagree. Goku trained a lot, a hellava lot for it not to be doubled to what it was before. Piccolo became stronger after his training in the chamber (remember, he was greater than a Super Saiyan before entering the chamber) and he was still fodder to Goku who didn't even go Super Saiyan 2 during the Cell games. I feel safe at saying Gohan Super Saiyan 2 is at the minimum 5 times greater than Goku SSJ form during the Namek saga.


Don't disagree with me B!TCH!!

After Namek the ridiculous gains stopped for some unknown reason. Again if doubling and tripling their SSJ power was common then there would have been no suprize when Gohan went SSJ2. In fact there would have been no need for SSJ2 to begin with


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 05:34 PM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman




Don't disagree with me B!TCH!!

After Namek the ridiculous gains stopped for some unknown reason. Again if doubling and tripling their SSJ power was common then there would have been no suprize when Gohan went SSJ2. In fact there would have been no need for SSJ2 to begin with


laughing out loud

You're wrong though. Remember, Gohan was fighting near evenly with Cell before going Super Saiyan 2 (and he was in his Super Saiyan form)... a double amp would be incredible for someone that was already extremely powerful. So yes, the shock they had was well worth it.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 05:51 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
laughing out loud

You're wrong though. Remember, Gohan was fighting near evenly with Cell before going Super Saiyan 2 (and he was in his Super Saiyan form)... a double amp would be incredible for someone that was already extremely powerful. So yes, the shock they had was well worth it.


I isn't wrong. You are saying SSJ Goku/Trunks/Vegeta already were more than doubling in power since Frieza so another amp exactly the same would not be something to be shocked about. Yeah they would be impressed at his new power but they were outright stupefied by this gain. That kinda kills your stance in it's tracks


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 05:56 PM
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carver9
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It really doesn't since I originally said they were MORE THAN double Super Saiyan 1 Goku in power. The one that fought Frieza.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 06:07 PM
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juggerman
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But they weren't. Nothing at all points to this. Stronger than SSJ Goku was on Namek? Of course. Double his power? Not a chance


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 06:23 PM
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Sj_Sharp
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It's obvious Jugg is trolling here.
Not a bad thing in this specific case though, since this thread has no point as a whole.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 06:31 PM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
Not even twice.

Remember that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Meaning had he even doubled his power he would have been in the SSJ2 teir and would have been able to curb Perfect Cell

I think it was galan who broke it down but I'm not entirely sure. Basically the increases from the time chamber were indeed huge but were much less than most people think. Let's say Trunks goes in the chamber with a PL of 150 mil right? And he comes out with a PL 151 mil. At first it doesn't seem like a huge bump but when you think about it, 1 million is about the difference between a normal human and second form Frieza. And we know that is a HUGE difference in power. So even increases of around 1 million would still be considered giant leaps in power.

Hopefully that wasn't too wordy
You realize Trunks got one shotted by Android 17 and then surpassed Perfect Cell in power don't you? Like that's all that needs to be said.

And even Android 16 said Cell shouldn't be that strong based on him absorbing 18 which indicates it wasn't just Cell adding her power to his but it was a larger transformation. So at the very least we have Android 16 + Android 18 + Android 17 which would make him at the very least 3 times more powerful.

However to put some context into it, Android 17 was strong enough to take out Trunks with one shot which was emphasized later on. Cell (Android 16) was strong enough to one shot Android 17 twice. Then after 17 he was able to one shot Android 16 (who even though was said to be equal to Cell, he beat the shit out of him). Then Perfect Cell. Who I needn't say anything about.

Not to mention Trunks who was so terrified of the Androids said the prior timelines Androids are unbelievably more powerful than them. And his timelines Androids were stated to be way beyond Frieza.


And power levels aren't static indicators of anything. Goku got thousands of times more powerful from DB to DBZ before he turned SS. He didn't secretly tap into SSGod to achieve this. A more recent example is SS2 Vegeta being more powerful than SS3 Goku by a large degree. He wasn't secretly SS4. A double triple or 8 times power level is meaningless in figuring out transformations. The only thing that is absolute in this is that SS2 will always be a double powerup from SS1 and so on. If Goku became SS3 against Frieza he would still be weaker than Buu era SS1.

Also lol at Cell only being around twice as powerful as Frieza. Or 1 million being huge. Goku was 30 million above Frieza and was still in the fight of his life.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 06:54 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
It's obvious Jugg is trolling here.
Not a bad thing in this specific case though, since this thread has no point as a whole.
I think people hate DBZ so much they start to delude themselves that they're right on complete nonsense.


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 07:00 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
You realize Trunks got one shotted by Android 17 and then surpassed Perfect Cell in power don't you? Like that's all that needs to be said.

And even Android 16 said Cell shouldn't be that strong based on him absorbing 18 which indicates it wasn't just Cell adding her power to his but it was a larger transformation. So at the very least we have Android 16 + Android 18 + Android 17 which would make him at the very least 3 times more powerful.

However to put some context into it, Android 17 was strong enough to take out Trunks with one shot which was emphasized later on. Cell (Android 16) was strong enough to one shot Android 17 twice. Then after 17 he was able to one shot Android 16 (who even though was said to be equal to Cell, he beat the shit out of him). Then Perfect Cell. Who I needn't say anything about.

Not to mention Trunks who was so terrified of the Androids said the prior timelines Androids are unbelievably more powerful than them. And his timelines Androids were stated to be way beyond Frieza.


And power levels aren't static indicators of anything. Goku got thousands of times more powerful from DB to DBZ before he turned SS. He didn't secretly tap into SSGod to achieve this. A more recent example is SS2 Vegeta being more powerful than SS3 Goku by a large degree. He wasn't secretly SS4. A double triple or 8 times power level is meaningless in figuring out transformations. The only thing that is absolute in this is that SS2 will always be a double powerup from SS1 and so on. If Goku became SS3 against Frieza he would still be weaker than Buu era SS1.

Also lol at Cell only being around twice as powerful as Frieza. Or 1 million being huge. Goku was 30 million above Frieza and was still in the fight of his life.


Goku was holding back A LOT against Frieza. That was made abundantly clear when Trunks took out a more powerful Frieza with the ease of wiping his arse.

An increase on a million was still pretty big. I'm not saying it was the end all but again 1 million was the different between the farmer Raditz killed and Second Form freaking Frieza. How can you say it's not a huge gap seriously?

I understand they all got stronger. A shit ton stronger. But again if they were doubling and tripling and fourth-ing(yup) their power after Frieza then Gohan's bump would have been standard. It clearly wasn't. It was AMAZING to them. almost unfathomable even. His bump was so freaking unreal.

Also I'd like to point out that again had doubles and greaters been so normally achieved then Cell would have in no way wanted to provoke Gohan into doubling his power since he would have known he was less than twice as strong as him. Clearly he believed whatever increase Gohan got would be less than 2x. Why would he think that if Trunks and Vegeta were increasing like you say? It literally makes no sense


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 07:09 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I think people hate DBZ so much they start to delude themselves that they're right on complete nonsense.


I love DBZ


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 07:09 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
It's obvious Jugg is trolling here.
Not a bad thing in this specific case though, since this thread has no point as a whole.


What ever would give you that idea.

But I agree this is a silly thread


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 07:10 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
I realize that but again the gains they received were less than you think.

Goku did not double his power between Frieza and Cell. His power grew a shit ton but it was still less than double his Namek SSJ self. There is literally nothing that shows otherwise


Sure he did. One year after the Namek Saga Goku was deflecting blows from Trunks' sword with his finger. The same blows that, according to Trunks, would have annihilated a stronger version of Frieza. Then he trained for years to face the Androids, was still inferior to them, and they weren't even able to compete with Semi-Perfect Cell, not to mention the leagues more powerful Perfect Cell. Who, post-ROSAT, Goku was able to contend with.

Sure, none of the individual jumps in power were as supermassive as Gohan's 2x, but collectively? Oh yeah.

Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 07:12 PM
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juggerman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sure he did. One year after the Namek Saga Goku was deflecting blows from Trunks' sword with his finger. The same blows that, according to Trunks, would have annihilated a stronger version of Frieza. Then he trained for years to face the Androids, was still inferior to them, and they weren't even able to compete with Semi-Perfect Cell, not to mention the leagues more powerful Perfect Cell. Who, post-ROSAT, Goku was able to contend with.

Sure, none of the individual jumps in power were as supermassive as Gohan's 2x, but collectively? Oh yeah.


Goku didn't increase much during the 3 years because he trained with the much weaker Gohan and Piccolo. The only real boost he got during that whole Saga was the chamber


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Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 07:16 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
Goku didn't increase much during the 3 years because he trained with the much weaker Gohan and Piccolo. The only real boost he got during that whole Saga was the chamber


Regardless, every improvement contributes. Again, the level of strength he gained between Frieza's defeat and the meeting with Trunks alone is astonishing, and by the Android saga he was even stronger than that. Regardless, Semi-Perfect Cell could have defeated him with a single blow, and Perfect Cell is on a completely different level.

It's not hard to understand why people think SSJ Goku (Cell Games) could deal with Frieza a lot more easily than SSJ2 Gohan did with Cell.

Old Post Oct 30th, 2015 07:23 PM
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