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Post a scan that says Goku was massively holding back.
An increase of a million was big. Until SS came alone. Then it became meaningless. Hell even Piccolo completely shattered that expectation when he hovered around heart disease Goku level prior to his fusion. The fact that Goku was 30 million above Frieza proves a million became meaningless. That's a quarter of Frieza's power.
Because they stopped tripling their power like that once they hit Gohan level prior to Buu. Even after 7 years Vegeta and Goku although higher than Gohan were still comparing their power to his in SS2 forms. Like I said that you completely ignored, Goku got tens of thousands of times stronger from DB to the Namek saga. Hell he got thousands of times stronger from the start of DBZ to the Namek saga.
Because they hit a limit at that level. And Cell only achieved his power from absorbing beings. He can't do that in the middle of battle and he didn't even know SS2 existed. I don't get how this becomes a point for you. Cell wanted to piss Gohan off because he's an ass hole and paid the price. That's all.
I don't get how you're comparing 5 years of training for Gohan and Goku to Cell in the middle of battle. The only one who didn't train for over 5 years from Frieza to Cell is Trunks and he trained 2 years at least still of only training. So yeah, that's why they were jumping up that high. Vegeta for example trained 3 years weighing 200 tons in the gravity machine. Then 2 years of only training. And a year of probably something from Namek exploding to Goku's arrival.
Yamcha: "Freeza's chi... He's that powerful..?"
Gohan: "This is nothing... He gets way stronger than this..!": http://i.imgur.com/yKMqwCl.jpg
And since Gohan was one of the few beings still alive on Namek when Freeza used 100% power, his word on the matter is pretty irrefutable.
There's also Mecha-Freeza's petite stature: (please log in to view the image)
Anyway, we know that Freeza only starts bulking up noticeably when he uses upwards of 70% power. That aside, Freeza came to earth under the impression that the most powerful being there(by a long-shot) was Vegeta, who *might* have had a PL in the low millions. He didn't plan on Goku arriving for a few hours, and he certainly had no clue about Trunks. That said, Freeza would have had NO reason to be accessing higher percentages of his power(he did like to conserve energy, after all.) It makes much more sense for him to be using a very low percentage of his power, like he initially was on Namek(~3%.) I suppose he *may* have been using 50% power for some inextricable reason, but anymore than that simply doesn't make sense considering he didn't plan on running into anyone on Goku's level, except Goku himself.
This is important because after Trunks appeared and went SSJ, Freeza wasn't shown or stated to have powered up at all. Tbh, he really didn't get a chance to--Trunks was all over him. This, imo, explains how Trunks was able to beat Freeza with such ease, when he was 'only' equal in power to Namek-saga SSJ Goku.
"When you understand a species' art, you understand that species."
Trunks was less than 30 million stronger than Frieza and made him look like a feeb. So what that tells us is that you don't need to be anywhere near double your opponent's power to treat them like fodder. This has been shown to us multiple times in DBZ if you need further examples.
Anyway, Less than 30 to treat him that way, which means that the androids wouldn't need to be THAT much stronger than Trunks and company to treat them like they were trash. Same with Cell and droids, Super Vegeta and Cell and so on. This idea that they had to be multiple times stronger isn't necessarily the case
But yes Cell Game Goku could deal with Frieza more easily than Gohan and Cell because we already saw a peer of Goku's(Trunks) handle him much more easily already. An even stronger Goku isn't needed
SSJ Goku was equal to SSJ Trunks as per the canon PL's released. We see what Trunks did to an even stronger Frieza. Goku wasn't going all out or else he would have killed Frieza right away
I never said a million would be a game changer later on. But regardless of what you think about it it is still a major difference seeing as how humans are literally nothing to second form Frieza
And like I said that YOU ignored, Increased like that stopped after Namek. There was never one recorded increase anywhere close to that after Fireza. Either Akira forgot or just didn't like doing it. But they did stop
During the three years of training Vegeta got to around Goku's level. Maybe a little higher but it wasn't confirmed one way or the other. This is told to us by Piccolo(I think) when he stated that Vegeta MIGHT even be stronger than Goku now. Cell knew how much power he had, he also knew how powerful Gohan was. He pushed Gohan expecting an increase similar to what Vegeta and Trunks came back with when they fought him. Again, had they made progress above double Cell would not have pushed Gohan. It's really that simple.
You're opinion on this matter means less than nothing to me. Me having a difference of opinion of the number(which really don't matter in the grand scheme btw) means I somehow now dislike it now? What a crock
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And Trunks had a sword that instantly cut Frieza in half. As well as Frieza being suppressed (mind you he himself said he was more powerful...). No Goku was never stated to be massively holding back. One of the hardest fights of his life and he was actually holding back the entire time?
But anyway, I'm glad you brought up Trunks being around equal to Goku, because...
Which would more than strongly imply they were more than twice Frieza's power. Which means if they reached that level, they would have gotten double the power of Frieza, and Trunks. And when they can manhandle a being that absorbed Android 17 who could utterly manhandle Android at a starting level (and Android 16 says that Cell shouldn't be that strong in Perfect Form which indicates it wasn't just simple addition, or at the very least it was), that indicates at the very least that they are 4 times stronger than Frieza and Trunks again. Considering Trunks actually got stronger than Perfect Cell who absorbed a being around twice as strong as his starting point (Trunks), that works out to around 6 times as powerful as a low estimate.
I believe in the Daizenshuu it was stated that Cell was 9 hundred million as well, so 6 times seems fair.
Now Trunks may or may not have been operating at that level when fighting the Cell Jrs, but we do know for a fact that his double ascended form was not a double multiplier (based on Cell being one shotted by Gohan). Which would mean his SS form had to have been at least above 450 million. Which would mean his starting point of 150 million more than doubled. And that's an absolutely low estimate of his power too. So when a Trunks who at the lowest is 3 times more powerful than Frieza and he can't damage Cell Jrs, it means that your entire point in this thread is wrong. Well, it would be when even a Trunks saga Trunks can't damage a Cell Jr but you get the point. Which means that you playing coy with Carver about SS2 having no feats just makes you look like an ass in the process.
As to the rest of your post... the increases stopped after the Cell Saga, not the Namek Saga. How else would we explain the Androids being eclipsed so completely and utterly? And then the increases apparently started anew when Super began.
And your post about Vegeta doesn't make sense again in response to Gohan. You're not speaking of cases where they go away and train for a while, in both examples you're using, Cell already knew exactly of their powers from their fights from the actual timeframe. Vegeta didn't fight Cell, lose, and then come back and eclipse him. The actual training is largely irrelevant in your example. Cell didn't have a starting point to judge things off of. Unless you considering him thinking Vegeta was a maggot when he first challenged him.
And the whole Cell pissing off Gohan thing was just Cell's way of testing a new power like Vegeta pride. Considering Gohan was already near his level, Cell goading him to get new power was a dumb move already. It was unexpected on his part but that doesn't mean that it overrules previous levels. Had Goku level Trunks transformed into SS2 at that level, he still would have gotten his ass handed to him by Semi Perfect Cell. Probably even Android 16. If they keep getting stronger however, and still have a double powerup in the back pocket at anytime, then that opens up a lot of doors for them. Which is why Gohan's transformation was so impressive. Because he was already near Cell's level when Cell was actually going all out. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks could only get near Cell's all out level when they massively slow themselves down to a point of not being able to hit him, but Gohan can then go double that with way more speed and power. And had Gohan continued to train, conceivably even beyond that to a large degree.
All you do on this forum is argue against DBZ. It'd be like Carver saying he likes Superman. It isn't just this instance.
I really don't dislike them I just hate the wanking. And the only time I argued against DBZ was in regards to Superman. That hardly equates to me never going for DBZ carv
Galan, one of the most knowledgeable here on DBZ, agrees with what I said(besides the Trunks vs Frieza part which I admitted I was mistaken about)
I admitted I was mistaken about Trunks vs Frieza. I didn't realize Frieza was heavily suppressed
Here's where you are making a mistake tho: You don't have to be double someone's power to completely own them. Look at the fights on Namek for example. Vegeta was less than 10% stronger than Dodoria and treating him like garbage. Similar with Zarbon after Vegeta got beat down. You make it seem like the only way the Androids could have beaten up Trunks and company was if they were multiple times their strength and that has never been the case. Hell it goes all the way back to DB where we see guys beating each other down with similar differences in power
The androids could have been around 10% stronger than Trunks to treat him like nothing. Hell Vegeta was actually on par with 18 and only lost cuz her energy doesn't drain. So no they were not double Frieza's power
Can you post the Daizenshuu numbers you are referring to? I only remember them going up to the very beginning of Androids Saga. If there are more than that could put this whole thing to bed.
You are making up power levels. Also, as carver himself pointed out earlier in the thread, I was just messing with him. I didn't expect you or others to get all up in arms over it.
I explain the increases like they've always been explained in Db and DBZ. a 5%-10% difference in power has always been shown to be MASSIVE. That has literal been the rule from jump. You and other seem to have forgotten that little bit
It does make sense in regard to Gohan. Cell had detailed files on all of the Z Warriors. He knew what their power was. Then he felt some of them up close himself and he absorbed 17 and we know 17 fought first hand against Vegeta and company. Cell would have been well informed about Vegeta. Now in about a day Vegeta would have, IYO, doubled/tripled or more his power and fought Semi Perfect Cell. Cell had no idea how Vegeta gained that power so to goad Gohan, who needed much less of a boost than Vegeta got wouldn't make sense.
I argued against DBZ against Superman. That's it. When else did I argue against them? It's hilarious that I say DBZ can't win one fight and all of a sudden fanboys jump out from the wood work and go "U H8 DBZ DERPY DERP!11!!!!11"
From what I can clearly tell he agrees (and I also probably would) with Ssj2 being 2x Full Power Ssj, not 2x Ssj.
Big difference, obviously.
Also, a strong case could be made for the manga itself implying the Ssj2 boost to be consistently more than the guidebook-source 2x, however this is another story (that's why I used the word probably in my previous sentence).
In the Cell era, a 2x boost in power was considered gargantuan... Bordering on insurmountable, even. And judging by the emphasis placed on SSJ2, I would tend to believe that it gleaned the single greatest Saiyan power increased we saw during that saga.
IOW, all other 'Grades' of SSJ in the Cell saga would have gleaned <2x increases, imo. I think that is a perfectly reasonable, and moreover logical assertion. You can fill-in the other characters(Androids, Piccolo, versions of Cell, etc.) accordingly.
"When you understand a species' art, you understand that species."
Last edited by Galan007 on Oct 31st, 2015 at 07:33 PM
I think people (possible you as well) are assuming I'm saying SSJ2 is twice Noob SSJ Goku vs Frieza level SSJ. That's not what I mean. I know Goku and company got stronger. I just don't think it was as big as some think