Well to be honest, Gohan and Vegeta both had to double their power levels to be stronger than Goku was on Namek in their super saiyan forms. And that was in four years after Namek (took Gohan five because spirit and time room to get super saiyan) So them doubling their powers isn't exactly unbelievable. From Cell Saga to Buu Saga they probably improved a LOT less. But in those 4 (or 5 for Vegeta and Trunks) doubling their base level wouldn't matter much..
I mean if the logic of doubling their power was so unheard of that it made them go oh my god...then the x50 would be an issue of even more magnitude. But of course super saiyan was common place...The sheer amount of power ssj2 gives their base self tho is whats impressive. 100x their base.
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Uh, Vegeta was pretty shocked when Goku multiplied his power by 1.5 when he used Kaioken against Nappa.
They were shocked by the sheer size of the power, not the amplification it saw.
Think about it, it wouldn't be shocking if they saw a power level of 100 go to 200, which is why Raditz wasn't even that shocked when Goku and Piccolo took off their weights, although he was impressed. The fact of the matter though is that Gohan went from a power level of likely over 500 million, to 1 billion. And we see in DBZ that when one person has the power level equivalent of several people, he can do WAY more than they can as a team. Which is why fusion makes a difference in the first place.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
After Namek those gains weren't common at all and for some reason pretty much forgotten about.
Yes Vegeta was shocked but before then they never really saw people's PL's growing like that.
I disagree. They were shocked by both
If these guys were doubling their SSJ power left and right SSJ2 would not have been needed or make any sense. It was a massive boost to everyone so that means it had to be bigger than what they were used to
Galan absolutely loves Frieza though. Do you agree with his assertion that Android 19/20 were comparable to supressed form Frieza which puts them in the 1-50 percent range?
Here's where you make the mistake though. I never said the ease of which they won was the reason they were twice as strong, I stated that Android 17 stating he didn't even use half his power when he ripped off Gohan's arm was the reason they were twice as strong. It doesn't hurt that Cell treated Android 17 like a child however. Not to mention Trunks stated they were stronger than him in every instance which would include the "half his power" form. So that's a thing. Android 17 basically outright saying he's twice as strong as Gohan. Which is what I based that on. You got anything to add to that?
And the 10 percent increases on Namek were still quite large, not that it's relevant. Vegeta was like 18-30 thousand before his massive jumps in power. A gap of a couple thousand will seem more at that low level than a couple millions when you get to the hundreds. Example being Goku vs Frieza which was a gap of 30 million, and Frieza iirc even KO'ed Goku in that fight. What is that a 25 percent gap? It only really got one sided when Frieza started running out of power.
That doesn't rule out anything though with Vegeta being comparable to her. Vegeta was a lot stronger than everyone there including Trunks. Hell he was more powerful than Goku who was more powerful than Trunks (who's power never changed) 3 years earlier. Trunks was quite a bit weaker than his Androids, and he was absolutely shocked that Vegeta could even compete with 18 who was much stronger than Trunks' Androids. Trunks could barely compete with his Androids 1 on 1 when they were presumably holding back. It doesn't answer anything.
That being said even if we lowball the Androids to only be about 200 million, that still stacks 3 times at the very least. Which would put Perfect Cell at at least 600 million. Considering Trunks was stronger than him and we know his increase was not two times, that would put his SS form at 300+ million. Which is a two times increase in power. Something you don't think is possible. Even though it's an increase of 4 times his original power with the transformations factored in. So even in SS form he's increasing by 2...
Hell, taking it a step farther, even if the Androids were 150 million for whatever reason, that would put Perfect Cell at 450 million. Trunks would be at 225 million at least at SS. Which is a 75 million increase in power, which means he's gotten a 50 percent increase in power. However, that's still a 3 times increase in total power when factoring in his buff forms, so...
And that's under the assumption that Cell was simply gaining an addition to his power as well. Which not only Vegeta not thinking he'd gain enough power to beat him with 18 goes against, but 16 straight up saying it goes against it as well: http://i67.tinypic.com/35mk2go.gif
IE, it was a bigger increase than simply adding the Androids to Cell's power. As well as assuming Trunks was only a little bit more powerful than Cell like I did in my examples. Cell states that Trunks is much stronger than him. http://i64.tinypic.com/2d14s8.gif
I'm really not seeing how they didn't get a couple times more powerful? SS2 being a double increase in power doesn't negate other double increases over long periods of time. I don't get it. That'd be like saying up to SS2 no one has ever gotten a double increase in power no matter how long it took. It's the same type of logic employed. How did Goku even get stronger going to Namek? He kept transforming into SS2 so many times his hair stayed black or something?
I'd look but I don't want to. It's not really important if it exists anyway since even lowball estimates shows 2 times increases in power during that saga. I saw a guy say it on another forum and it added up with the Androids being twice Frieza so I threw it in.
You explain the jumps in power when using really low power levels and try to apply it to everything else while ignoring proof and logic. That doesn't work.
Also the examples don't work anyway with your view of 5-10 percent.
Vegeta was 15 percent more powerful than Dodoria, and it took a lot more effort than what was expended against Trunks with the Androids. We don't know the exact difference between monster Zarbon and Vegeta. But it wasn't on the scale of beatdown that you're comparing the Androids to. Zarbon took a lot of shots before dying. You're comparing fights with lots of attacks vs Android 17 getting one and two shotted, Trunks getting one shotted, and the like. Seems you're starting at a fault and then trying to use your examples to overrule the words you're putting in my mouth.
Cell only had detailed files on the Z Fighters up to Frieza arriving on Earth. IE next to nothing on Gohan. And I have no idea how this is relevant anyway. You're again comparing long periods of training to an instant boost.
And yes, Cell was extremely surprised by Vegeta because it didn't make sense to him. The issue with Gohan is a couple things:
First off, Gohan wasn't fighting back and Cell was primarily trying to piss him off, which flows in line with him having Vegeta's pride to fight a stronger opponent.
Cell's perception of transformations was based on Vegeta, Trunks, and his own transformations where although there is a power increase, it comes at the cost of speed. So it really wouldn't have mattered for him too much if that was the outcome. He knew he'd get stronger, but it would come at a price.
And lastly, it was stupid. When Gohan was fighting, he was near Cell's level. It's called plot. I don't even begin to understand how this proves or disproves anything. Cell was wrong, that's it. Hell, even after Gohan went SS2 and Cell felt his power, he still said that Gohan can't possibly win. He was full of ego at that point.
And again, the SS2 was unheard of. They lost nothing in the process, and gained even more power. Not only that, but Gohan's power was unheard of even in his SS form. That's why it was such a shock. He was above all of them already and then he has a transformation where he can instantly become much more powerful and faster. Cell's power was blowing with their minds and then all of the sudden something comes out double that? No shit it's going to be a shock. I don't understand how this is a point. It's not the double power increase that surprised them. It's the level of power that was on display there. They shot up dozens of times their own power a couple years earlier, you think a simple double increase is surprising? No, it's where he ended up. He was already in the ballpark of Trunks' most powerful form, and then he doubled that instantly.
All you do is argue against Carver on anything he says. And while that may just be the Carver effect, it carries over when you apply that to anyone who disagrees with you. Not to mention calling anyone else a dbz fanboy and mocking the words doesn't exactly help. From my perspective it certainly doesn't look like the case of a fan talking about something he likes. Not that it matters of course since everyone can chime in, except BeyonderGod. It's just funny that you have to try and convince me of your like for the series.
Um, why is my name getting brought up in your wall-o-text? I didn't respond to any of your posts, so I'm not sure why you're randomly throwing my name out there..?
Furthermore, why must I 'absolutely love Frieza' to say that #19 & #20(pre-energy absorption) were comparable to him?
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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
And it's interesting that Juggerman keeps using your name as some sort of canon when he seems to disagree with you in the same post on that very subject.
I do think 19 and 20 were weaker than full power Frieza. Not really sure how much so tho.
Can you post where #17 said that? I honestly don't remember him saying he only used 50%
Goku had the upper hand the entire fight with Frieza once he went SSJ. Anytime Frieza did well was anime filler iirc.
Trunks and Goku were equals in power. Vegeta was very close to their power as well. The reason Vegeta did better was because #17 > #18 in power. So Vegeta was fighting the weaker of the two while Trunks fought the stronger.
I feel like you are making up numbers regarding Cell and the droids. Do you have the canon text you spoke about in your last post? Where you claimed Cell was 900 million in power? Or that gave any number at all? That would really help settle this whole thing
We don't know how much Cell's power increased with each absorption. Again increases of 10%-20% were always considered massive in DBZ. There is no reason Cell couldn't have jumped only that much
You keep going back to the massive increases before the Cell Saga. We know they had uber increases then but after they achieved SSJ those increases ended. Maybe because SSJ was considered the pinnacle of what a Saiyan could achieve. Or maybe Akira just forgot. I really don't know but I have a hard time seeing the characters blow their loads over a 2x increase to think it was more common. No one received an increase like that after Namek is the answer
I really don't see the droids(17 and 18) being twice Frieza. If it adds up to you cool beans. I'm just not seeing it
Perhaps my math was off. What were Vegeta's and Dodoria's PLs when they fought. I thought Vegeta was 24k and Dodoria was 22k?
Cell was around during their fights with the Androids and fought Piccolo. He would have been well aware of their powers since he could very accurately sense ki. That's how he knew how many people he needed to absorb before facing anyone outright. Being as how he knew Vegeta's power only one day prior and then seeing that jump in power without knowing how it happened makes me feel like he would have been more cautious with Gohan had that increase been at the level you are saying it was. I agree it was a dumb move but it makes sense if he were expecting a lower jump in power based of a lower jump by Vegeta and Trunks
It would be surprising since after SSJ was unlocked, there weren't those massive jumps. A little here and there(in the grand scheme) wouldn't blow their minds but doubling the legendary form altogether would indeed blow their minds.
You claimed that I "always argue against DBZ" yet you've provided nothing to back that up. I freely admit I argued for Superman against Goku but I fail to see how that equates to me not liking DBZ as a whole or "always arguing against it". To say that does indeed make you and others(it wasn't just you I was talking about) look like fanboys. I've created DBZ threads, I've debated in many others as well. Hell I remember when I was the only one in a thread arguing for Vegito when he was up against Thor. I even debated for someone(Goku I think) against Juggernaut. Look at my freaking Avatar and Sig. I love the damn Juggernaut. So yeah brah
Look at it like this: If you said Batman couldn't beat Superman and I jumped all over you for it and laughed when you said you even liked Batman I wouldn't look like a fanboy? Of course I would. I'm just calling it how I see it. But again how you view my interest in DBZ means nothing at all to me in the grand scheme.
I brought up galan because people were trying to pretend that I was just making up a stance and no one could possibly agree with me.
Depending on the degree stated, that puts them at the maximum of half of Frieza's strength, or at the minimum of 1 percent of 120 million.
This is what I was talking about with you ignoring proof:
That is what my whole post branches off of. The idea that Android 17 in the main timeline is at the very least double Trunks' power level. Everything else is factoring that in. Using actual proof. I'm not just making an assumption based of people going "holy shit Gohan just raised his Ki which is the second highest ki we've ever felt in this series, and he's doubled it!"
Even when Frieza tired, he was still able to get some hits in. It wasn't a long fight, but there was no indication during the fight that Goku was 30 million higher than Frieza. And there goes your whole point when using people in the low thousands to explain away million differences.
There is absolutely zero percent chance that Goku stayed at 150 million after four years. Even after 1 year Goku showed he was above Trunks. Goku and Trunks were in no way equal and that goes against everything we know about Goku and Dragonball as a whole. Especially when Goku was specifically going to train for 3 years with actual people.
Vegeta was stronger than Goku training specifically to deal with threats way beyond Frieza for 3 years. So that should say a lot. Also, Trunks accomplished nothing against 18 except getting dropped by 17, and then having 18 break Vegeta against him.
Of course I'm making up numbers. I'm lowballing Cell's power to show you that there is absolutely no way for Trunks to not have gained at least a double increase in power. Do you not understand what the point of that is? Do you not understand that "900 million" was only used in addition to the Androids being around 300 million and it adding up? I used a guy claiming to state from the Daizenshuu that Cell was 900 million admittedly. Now I don't have the scan, said I wasn't going to look for it, but I figured it made sense. And I was under the assumption that you were actually looking at the scans I used to think "hey 3 people with around 300 million pl does add up to 900 million". 900 million from the Daizenshuu was not my point.
I like how you fail to address the actual lowball estimates though where it still winds up with Trunks gaining at the very least a 3 times powerup.
That's the thing though. And I will address this in separate post as well, but the thing is, Cell is completely absorbing a being and you think his power only jumps up 10 percent from that? Nevermind the fact that Cell got way more powerful than Piccolo from absorbing regular people with power levels of 1-10, but you actually think he only got a 20 percent increase from absorbing 2 beings he was destined to absorb?
But like I said though before, and repeated myself, and even threw a scan in there from 16 where his strength made no sense... Vegeta with no concept of how Cell's power worked, outright said that Cell absorbing 18 would not allow him to defeat Vegeta. You think Vegeta was only thinking about 10 percent of her power? http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...320706.gif.html
I keep saying it because it's true. Even you admit it though you're too stubborn to realize it. There's a reason I've been making a point to say Trunks was above Cell, and you'll see soon enough.
That's because you keep ignoring the scan where it nigh spells it out to you letter for letter.
That still doesn't account for anything though. Gohan could have been more powerful than him at the time, and that still wouldn't have stopped Cell from trying to piss him. You overthinking it does not add canon to the events at hand. You want to see the page or something to realize why it doesn't matter? http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...4pg123.gif.html
That last scan also accounts for your post about "very accurately sense ki" since Cell still thought he had a chance even when Gohan was nearly twice as powerful as him. Cell just wanted to piss Gohan off. That is the official reason. On a deeper level, it was exactly the same reason as Vegeta let him achieve perfection. It was to get a challenge... the whole reason behind the Cell Games. No Cell didn't expect a new transformation, but that again doesn't negate the prior accomplishments the previous fighters did.
I'm not disputing that. In fact, that factors into what I'm saying. That there's an instant transformation that can double the SS form with no real drawbacks, and all you have to do is transform. However, that does not in anyway indicate that doubling your power without it is in any way impossible either later or before hand. Especially not when double your power before hand still leads you to a lesser power level than the normal SS form from the guy who can transform into SS2. Even worse in retrospect when Vegeta far eclipses Goku in SS3 form when Goku's form starts out 4 times higher than SS2... but I digress.
Basically, Gohan at the time achieved the foreseeable limits of SS1 by far and then he shattered that. That is why it was so shocking. Not to mention Gohan was weak as shit within that year and had the most jumps in power out of anyone there considering he wasn't even close to Base Goku level to start before he went into the chamber... same with Bardock for that matter. Guy became a SS at a couple grand in power. It lessens the effect when Namek Vegeta can beat a SS but it doesn't make it any less possible.
Aren't you the guy that argued that a destructo disc could kill Beerus based on a no limits fallacy (same thread you argued that stopping ki had almost no weight to it to try and take away any sort of strength feats because they're nowhere near Thor level)? That there was absolutely no way Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta without destabilizing the core? Goku stands no chance against Superman? And others. Almost every thread I click on involving you and DBZ has some asinine debate going on with it. Like I said, it reminds me of Carver and his favorite character Superman.
Now, it doesn't bother me in the slightest what your inclination is to DBZ, but the fact that you have to try and prove how much you enjoy it doesn't exactly paint the picture of an honest person. People should enjoy what they enjoy without "swear to God" esque testimonies.
When Galan has PM'ed you as many videos as he's done to me of him licking penises, then you start to doubt he knows what he's talking about. Never seen him put one in his mouth, just lick them, and that tells the tale of a man you can't trust.
You questioning him leads me to believe you don't exactly believe him, and that's perfectly reasonable going back to my penis licking point up above.
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Oct 31st, 2015 08:16 PM
