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Who's more durable, Cell Juniors or Frieza?
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Time-Immemorial
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laughing out loud


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2015 01:11 AM
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One Big Mob
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And going back to what I said above...
When asked how much more powerful you think Cell is over Frieza you said:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
Somewhere between 3 and 4 I'd guess


Which right off the bat goes into the Trunks example. Trunks was more powerful, which means that Trunks got 3 to 4 times more powerful or around there as well. IE, you defeated your entire point.

To go deeper into this and to apply some more logic you used however...

3 times more powerful is 360 million which is... lol
But anyway, you think 10 percent is much more powerful in DBZ, so we go by your lowball estimates and considering Trunks greatly surpasses Cell:
http://i64.tinypic.com/2d14s8.jpg

Let's go with 396 million for Trunks.

Let's also say Trunks' transformation is surpassed by SS2 by 10 percent as well (which makes no sense, but 10 percent is the magical number), and off the top of my head that's like 39.6 million more. Which puts his base SS form at around 220 million.

So his base form doesn't go above twice but it raises drastically to 70 million within one year. Something that should be just as impossible... however, he becomes almost 3 times as powerful as when he started still following your logic.

Then we go to 4 times Frieza for Cell:
Cell = 480 million
Trunks = 528 million
SS Trunks = 278 million

Which means Trunks becomes 3.5 times stronger as a whole over his first appearance, and his normal SS is only 22 million off of becoming two times.

So, either way going by your logic, Trunks was either tripling or quadrupling his power. And you still maintain it was impossible?

Not to mention the whole golden child of this whole thing started off weaker than base Goku during this timeframe, maybe even within a year, and would have had to have tripled his own power to get to Cell's level even under a false assumption he could transform into SS from the start. IE, Gohan became 6 times more powerful within a year. Which means even he defeats the notion that it was impossible.



Also, how did you get 3 or 4 times stronger than Frieza when you only think Cell's transformations went up 10 percent more power?

I suck at math


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2015 01:34 AM
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Lol. Bran's so jelly.


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2015 02:09 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggerman
Damn right he isn't always right. He actually tried to argue against Broly's power being maximum. Phucking retard!


I was reading your post very seriously until the end of your post...then I lost my shit. laughing


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2015 06:05 PM
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juggerman
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Ok before I start I need to say that the past few days have been hectic and I was trying to read/respond here while doing work and I think I probably skimmed a lot of your posts and responded to what I thought you were saying instead of what you were actually saying. For that I apologize.

Anyhow:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Depending on the degree stated, that puts them at the maximum of half of Frieza's strength, or at the minimum of 1 percent of 120 million.

This is what I was talking about with you ignoring proof:


That is what my whole post branches off of. The idea that Android 17 in the main timeline is at the very least double Trunks' power level. Everything else is factoring that in. Using actual proof. I'm not just making an assumption based of people going "holy shit Gohan just raised his Ki which is the second highest ki we've ever felt in this series, and he's doubled it!"


I have no idea how I skimmed over those links. My bad. Yeah thatís very interesting.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
It took Goku six pages to appear again after this hit from Frieza ramming through his blast:
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...27_144.jpg.html
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...27_145.jpg.html
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...27_146.jpg.html

Even when Frieza tired, he was still able to get some hits in. It wasn't a long fight, but there was no indication during the fight that Goku was 30 million higher than Frieza. And there goes your whole point when using people in the low thousands to explain away million differences.

Goku was no worse for wear after that hit. My point is still valid. Even Vegeta was able to deal blows to Recoome and make hit work for a bit. The end result was still that Vegeta really never stood a chance. Same with Frieza vs SSJ Goku
quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
There is absolutely zero percent chance that Goku stayed at 150 million after four years. Even after 1 year Goku showed he was above Trunks. Goku and Trunks were in no way equal and that goes against everything we know about Goku and Dragonball as a whole. Especially when Goku was specifically going to train for 3 years with actual people.
Vegeta was stronger than Goku training specifically to deal with threats way beyond Frieza for 3 years. So that should say a lot. Also, Trunks accomplished nothing against 18 except getting dropped by 17, and then having 18 break Vegeta against him.

Goku was about equal to Trunks. Trunks was holding back during their brief sparring match. That year in space he spent learning IT and then training with Piccolo and Gohan wouldnít have provided much of anything to Goku.

Vegeta was In that ballpark too iirc because all that was mentioned about him in relation to Goku was that he might be stronger now. His showing against 18 was due to her being the weaker of the twins
quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Of course I'm making up numbers. I'm lowballing Cell's power to show you that there is absolutely no way for Trunks to not have gained at least a double increase in power. Do you not understand what the point of that is? Do you not understand that "900 million" was only used in addition to the Androids being around 300 million and it adding up? I used a guy claiming to state from the Daizenshuu that Cell was 900 million admittedly. Now I don't have the scan, said I wasn't going to look for it, but I figured it made sense. And I was under the assumption that you were actually looking at the scans I used to think "hey 3 people with around 300 million pl does add up to 900 million". 900 million from the Daizenshuu was not my point.

Actually that was your point. You said:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob I believe in the Daizenshuu it was stated that Cell was 9 hundred million as well, so 6 times seems fair.

You didnít say ďsome guy saidĒ initially which is why I asked if you had it and could post it. Then afterwards you switched it up to ďsome guy saidĒ to which I either skimmed over or outright ignored. Either way I guess we can drop this point.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I like how you fail to address the actual lowball estimates though where it still winds up with Trunks gaining at the very least a 3 times powerup.

Cell said Trunks was stronger than him but at that point we hadnít seen Cellís full power yet. He was purposely keeping it hidden. To me that says Cell could have been lying about Trunks being stronger than his full power.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
That's the thing though. And I will address this in separate post as well, but the thing is, Cell is completely absorbing a being and you think his power only jumps up 10 percent from that? Nevermind the fact that Cell got way more powerful than Piccolo from absorbing regular people with power levels of 1-10, but you actually think he only got a 20 percent increase from absorbing 2 beings he was destined to absorb?
But like I said though before, and repeated myself, and even threw a scan in there from 16 where his strength made no sense... Vegeta with no concept of how Cell's power worked, outright said that Cell absorbing 18 would not allow him to defeat Vegeta. You think Vegeta was only thinking about 10 percent of her power?
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...320706.gif.html


Iím not saying he gained only that much for sure. Iím saying it could have been only that amount to put him vastly above the other according to DBZ PL logic.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I keep saying it because it's true. Even you admit it though you're too stubborn to realize it. There's a reason I've been making a point to say Trunks was above Cell, and you'll see soon enough.


I have an answer for this as well

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
That's because you keep ignoring the scan where it nigh spells it out to you letter for letter. wink


Yup

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
That still doesn't account for anything though. Gohan could have been more powerful than him at the time, and that still wouldn't have stopped Cell from trying to piss him. You overthinking it does not add canon to the events at hand. You want to see the page or something to realize why it doesn't matter?
http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...4pg123.gif.html

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bi...4pg171.gif.html

That last scan also accounts for your post about "very accurately sense ki" since Cell still thought he had a chance even when Gohan was nearly twice as powerful as him. Cell just wanted to piss Gohan off. That is the official reason. On a deeper level, it was exactly the same reason as Vegeta let him achieve perfection. It was to get a challenge... the whole reason behind the Cell Games. No Cell didn't expect a new transformation, but that again doesn't negate the prior accomplishments the previous fighters did.


Except you are forgetting the part when Cell says Gohan is making the same mistake Trunks did. He was under the impression that Gohan was going to be slow as molasses.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I'm not disputing that. In fact, that factors into what I'm saying. That there's an instant transformation that can double the SS form with no real drawbacks, and all you have to do is transform. However, that does not in anyway indicate that doubling your power without it is in any way impossible either later or before hand. Especially not when double your power before hand still leads you to a lesser power level than the normal SS form from the guy who can transform into SS2. Even worse in retrospect when Vegeta far eclipses Goku in SS3 form when Goku's form starts out 4 times higher than SS2... but I digress.
Basically, Gohan at the time achieved the foreseeable limits of SS1 by far and then he shattered that. That is why it was so shocking. Not to mention Gohan was weak as shit within that year and had the most jumps in power out of anyone there considering he wasn't even close to Base Goku level to start before he went into the chamber... same with Bardock for that matter. Guy became a SS at a couple grand in power. It lessens the effect when Namek Vegeta can beat a SS but it doesn't make it any less possible.


I see what you are saying


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2015 09:35 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Aren't you the guy that argued that a destructo disc could kill Beerus based on a no limits fallacy (same thread you argued that stopping ki had almost no weight to it to try and take away any sort of strength feats because they're nowhere near Thor level)?


Can you explain to me how arguing that one DBZ character could harm another DBZ character is somehow considered ďarguing against DBZĒ? That really makes no sense. That would be like saying I hate Marvel cuz I think Magneto can harm Thor. erm

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
That there was absolutely no way Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta without destabilizing the core? Goku stands no chance against Superman? And others. Almost every thread I click on involving you and DBZ has some asinine debate going on with it. Like I said, it reminds me of Carver and his favorite character Superman.


Whoa now, I didnít say there was no way. I said all we see is one way when he was several magnitudes stronger. So I felt that it would have been fair to say that him at 0.25% wouldnít have done better than him at 50%. I think thatís very reasonable. Again Not seeing how that means I dislike it but I guess some people can take anything and spin it how they wish eh?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Now, it doesn't bother me in the slightest what your inclination is to DBZ, but the fact that you have to try and prove how much you enjoy it doesn't exactly paint the picture of an honest person. People should enjoy what they enjoy without "swear to God" esque testimonies.


Iím not trying to prove anything, Iím explaining why you claiming I couldnít possibly like it is a crock of shazz. But again think what you like. Iím sure none of these facts will sway your silly opinion

quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
When Galan has PM'ed you as many videos as he's done to me of him licking penises, then you start to doubt he knows what he's talking about. Never seen him put one in his mouth, just lick them, and that tells the tale of a man you can't trust.

You questioning him leads me to believe you don't exactly believe him, and that's perfectly reasonable going back to my penis licking point up above.


I donít know how to respond to this at allÖÖ.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
And going back to what I said above...
When asked how much more powerful you think Cell is over Frieza you said:



Which right off the bat goes into the Trunks example. Trunks was more powerful, which means that Trunks got 3 to 4 times more powerful or around there as well. IE, you defeated your entire point.

To go deeper into this and to apply some more logic you used however...

3 times more powerful is 360 million which is... lol
But anyway, you think 10 percent is much more powerful in DBZ, so we go by your lowball estimates and considering Trunks greatly surpasses Cell:
http://i64.tinypic.com/2d14s8.jpg

Let's go with 396 million for Trunks.

Let's also say Trunks' transformation is surpassed by SS2 by 10 percent as well (which makes no sense, but 10 percent is the magical number), and off the top of my head that's like 39.6 million more. Which puts his base SS form at around 220 million.

So his base form doesn't go above twice but it raises drastically to 70 million within one year. Something that should be just as impossible... however, he becomes almost 3 times as powerful as when he started still following your logic.

Then we go to 4 times Frieza for Cell:
Cell = 480 million
Trunks = 528 million
SS Trunks = 278 million

Which means Trunks becomes 3.5 times stronger as a whole over his first appearance, and his normal SS is only 22 million off of becoming two times.

So, either way going by your logic, Trunks was either tripling or quadrupling his power. And you still maintain it was impossible?

Not to mention the whole golden child of this whole thing started off weaker than base Goku during this timeframe, maybe even within a year, and would have had to have tripled his own power to get to Cell's level even under a false assumption he could transform into SS from the start. IE, Gohan became 6 times more powerful within a year. Which means even he defeats the notion that it was impossible.



Also, how did you get 3 or 4 times stronger than Frieza when you only think Cell's transformations went up 10 percent more power?

I suck at math


Again I never said thatís what Cell received as a boost. I said he wouldnít need to get a boost bigger than that to thwomp people. But to answer your question here:

We know Frieza was 120M right. And Goku was 150M. And we KNOW Trunks was 150M as well when he first met Goku and they were equals. We know all this because of the canon PLís given to us in the Daizenshuu.

Now letís make Frieza 1 so itís simple to scale

100% Frieza = 1
SSJ Goku/SSJ Trunks = 1.25

Ok now letís say Goku training with Gohan produced results about 75% of Frieza. That would put them around 2 in this scenario. Now of course these are made up numbers but assuming Cell is triple Frieza then Gohan doubling up would make him well WELL above Cell as Cell would be a 3 and SSJ2 Gohan would be 4

As for Trunks, as stated earlier Cell could have been lying(or specifically talking about his ďheld backĒ level of power) or yes Trunks with his USSJ form gained a significant boost in power similar to SSJ2. I personal think it was the latter but the reason I never brought this up was I honestly didnít even think of that transformation. But yes The USSJ form would have been the exception


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2015 09:35 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I was reading your post very seriously until the end of your post...then I lost my shit. laughing


thumb up


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2015 09:40 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
The Cell Juniors also took hits from the guy who cut Freeza in half. Law of averages against characters who appear in all of 3 chapters is a bit unfair considering Freeza's fight in his second form took up more time.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
I can practically taste the salt through my monitor.
well frieza will win here i think

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2015 12:01 PM
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Cell Juniors barley fought, so based on showings Frieza. All we saw was them basically beat up on the Z-Senshi.


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Old Post Dec 27th, 2015 10:38 PM
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Barely fought? They were stalemating/beating Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta. Beating Piccolo who was above Super Saiyan levels and working Goku. Seems like fighting to me.


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Old Post Dec 27th, 2015 10:52 PM
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Lol...don't see Juggerman on here anymore after DBZ/DBS received fts and his Frieza argument was thrown out of the window.


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Old Post Dec 27th, 2015 10:55 PM
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Lol this thread


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Old Post Dec 27th, 2015 11:04 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...don't see Juggerman on here anymore after DBZ/DBS received fts and his Frieza argument was thrown out of the window.


I haven't seen DBS yet so I can't speak on it. As of the end of DBZ, feats show Frieza being more durable.

EDIT: It's good to see that you missed me Carv!


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Last edited by juggerman on Dec 27th, 2015 at 11:59 PM

Old Post Dec 27th, 2015 11:48 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
When?
i think freiza will win here

Old Post Dec 30th, 2015 11:42 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Question is on the title.
i think frieza win here

Old Post Jan 8th, 2016 07:15 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by bbrem123
Well that is not fair. They were killed by a SSJ2 lol.
i think frieza will win here

Old Post Jan 16th, 2016 10:08 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by AuraAngel
There is no reason to go the route of averages in this case. The authorial intent is clear. Cell Juniors could take hits from powerful versions of SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks(who cut Freeza in half). That one feat is all they need frankly.

Averages need only be taken into consideration when we have massive outliers in both directions.
i think freiza will win this

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 07:36 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...what do you mean "I" like to go by averages and don't use my debating style, base this off of your opinion.
i think frieza will win here

Old Post Jan 30th, 2016 05:35 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, this is Namek saga Frieza.

What do you mean based on average?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
When?
i think frieza wins here

Old Post Jan 30th, 2016 07:02 AM
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