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BEATBOKS vs SMURPH (mid herald tournament)
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

BEATBOKS vs SMURPH (mid herald tournament)

quote:

beatboks wrote on Nov 13th, 2015 11:28 AM:

First an introduction to my build
Doctor Cosmos ( since a star and comet are galactic etc etc)
Doctor Occult
Powers
TP, TK, Illusions, Hypnotism, astral travel/teleportation, intangibility, size alteration.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...s%20_1.jpg.html
Artifact/weapon and capability
Disk of the seven – Absorb and redirect magic and natural energy.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ort=3&o=103
FTR that isn’t from any handbook. It’s from the mini series Day of Judgement.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=41
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ort=3&o=118
That one was redirecting a psionic attack back at the attacker, so not magic
Break spells/counter magic or magnify it
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2019.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ceries.jpg.html
grants a danger/ mystic sense
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2022.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ge%203.jpg.html
Finally courtesy of his disk he can have intimate knowledge of anyone.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ge%204.jpg.html
He can do this because he can “step outside of time and watch the past
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...20time.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2018.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2019.jpg.html
This is where I’ll get the argument that I’m breaching the time manipulation rules. I’m not because Occult can’t and never could affect the past only view it. He can’t do anything there or change anything. It’s a source of knowledge only.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...50x415.jpg.html
Nor does it brake the 1 second BFR rule as when he steps outside tme he returns to the exact same instant he left.
Captain Comet- (holding off on scans for Comet ATM to keep OP down. He is after all the most known part of my build.)
Class 100++ strength
FTL speed and reaction
Invulnerability
A body that can adapt to most things quickly
TP, TK. Mind over matter
Genius
Starman
Genius
Weapon –Star rod
Conrols Gravity, electromagnetic spectrum
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=51
Absorbs and projects energy, deflects energy, can be used to generate energy constructs.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=53
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page18.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ontrol.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ricity.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page17.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page16.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page20.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page10.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page11.jpg.html
create anti matter
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2013.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2015.jpg.html
Notice how that was done during battle.
Travel at light speed
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...0light.jpg.html
view other dimensions (not really useful here)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2026.jpg.html
protects to a degree from mind control (later versions used others did it better)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page27.jpg.html
Yes I know this is where I get told that I can’t use feats of others only those of my character. The thing is can. I have a way of being fully aware of all these applications done by Sylvester Pemberton with the exact same device that Ted Knight used when Ted gifted it to him. Using Dr Occult’s ability to step outside time my build can have seen all the applications of the rod that others have used and he may not have.
Prep – well that’s real hard to work out, isn’t it?
I raise a shield.
Opening Battle moves.
I fill the battlefield with a dozen illusions of myself as a distraction
I step outside of time to learn everything about my adversary and all I need to know about the other users of the star rod.
I TP search for my adversary as well as use the sensory functions of the star rod to find them while invisible (assuming Smurph is going stealth pretty soon into the match.
I commence a TP assault on my opponent to further bamboozle them
I teleport around the battle field and blast my adversary from multiple angles before they even realize they’ve been located.


__________________

Old Post Nov 16th, 2015 03:23 PM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

quote:

Smurph wrote on Nov 16th, 2015 03:22 AM:

Smurph Opening Post

Hey judges, audience, and Beatboks! Let me introduce myself…

My team:

Beta Ray Bill
(please log in to view the image)

Magik
(please log in to view the image)

Invisible Boy
(please log in to view the image)

The mighty Korbinite-Asgardian Storm God, the infernal Hell Lord of Limbo, and a Cosmic Herald of the space god Galactus.
By their powers combined, they form Smite, Divine Warrior of Smurph’s Judgement


---------------

Prep:

Smite raises both Invisible Boy’s shields, as well as Stormbreaker’s.

---------------

Smite immediately cloaks and teleports, and throws a cloaked Stormbreaker. Shields stay raised.

Johnny’s powers cloak him from all forms of detection, even from Galactus.

Further, thanks to Magik’s mutant powers, Smite can be anywhere on the battlefield at once. His portals are accurate, far reaching, and, unlike other teleporters, do not tax him. Scans aplenty will be provided as I need them.

Finally, Johnny’s cosmic awareness is profound, powerful, and precise. It is why Galactus made him. If there is any barrier or defense that Beatboks raises that prevents the following plan from working, Smite will know immediately and adapt accordingly.

Anyways, as I was saying: Smite throws a cloaked Stormbreaker. Stormbreaker is going to gain speed while Smite launches his next attack:

The Soulsword destroys enchantments and severs them.

In other words, the Soulsword will be a nightmare for any spell or equipment that Dr. Occult brings to bear. Immediately after throwing Stormbreaker, I am going to teleport next to my opponent, strike with the Soulsword, and sever, absorb, or destroy every spell and piece of magical equipment that Beatboks is carrying.

I know that, in the discussion thread, Beatboks drew a comparison between Occult’s Disc of the Seven and Magik’s Soulsword. If he believes they are of comparable power, that works in my favour. Dr. Occult’s disc is nifty, but has no showings of comparable power to Magik’s sword, which easily severed Colossus/Juggernaut’s link with Cyttorak.
Magik is a Hell Lord. If Dr. Occult wants to enter a dick measuring contest, she’ll win.

Immediately after rendering Beatboks’ magic inert, Stormbreaker will strike. Hammer blitz.. As per the scan, Stormbreaker is fast enough to circle a planet multiple times in the span of a sentence.

----------

To recap:

  1. Shields raised
    Match starts.
  2. Cloak and teleport
  3. Throw cloaked Stormbreaker
  4. Teleport and strike with Soulsword
  5. Hammer blitz with Stormbreaker
  6. Celebrate


Beatboks, my divine warrior has judged you unworthy!

GG.


__________________

Old Post Nov 16th, 2015 03:25 PM
psycho gundam is currently offline Click here to Send psycho gundam a Private Message Find more posts by psycho gundam Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
beatboks
ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

I didn't get an answer in my question of the discussion thread so I hope it's ok to have this post just to to fix my broken links from PG's post. as NOT part of my post count. (let me know if this is included.)

Just links in order (hopefully), also don't know what happened to my heading I did underline and bold but even in my sent PM they don't appear that way yet did in preview??

Dr Occult

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...s%20_1.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ort=3&o=103

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=41

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ort=3&o=118

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2019.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ceries.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2022.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2018.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ge%204.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...20time.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2018.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2019.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...50x415.jpg.html

Starman

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=51

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=53

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page18.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ricity.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page17.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page16.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page20.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page10.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page11.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2013.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2015.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...0light.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2026.jpg.html

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Page27.jpg.html

I've just randomly tested 12 of these links in a preview and they all worked fine, so hopefully that fixes my problem.

Old Post Nov 17th, 2015 08:38 AM
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beatboks
ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

OK so If that last bit is allowed as part of my OP

size=4]post # 1[/size]

quote:

I know that, in the discussion thread, Beatboks drew a comparison between Occult’s Disc of the Seven and Magik’s Soulsword. If he believes they are of comparable power, that works in my favour. Dr. Occult’s disc is nifty, but has no showings of comparable power to Magik’s sword, which easily severed Colossus/Juggernaut’s link with Cyttorak.




First lets settle this myth right out of the gate.

In day of Judgement Occult is one of only two mystics who holds the Spectre at bay while the others prepare a plan

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=2

Here references when he fought a "hell Lord" in their own realm and won

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=1

here (and yes it a COIE appearance) Occult along with Alan Scot are the focus to use the magic power of EVERY DCU mystic. He literally shares in wielding half the power of all the most powerful mystics in DCU.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0

For the record Dr Occult got powered up by COIE not down and this was the first showing of this type of thing.

Here he blasts the demons three (you do recall those demons who casually stomp the big 7 of the JLA) and has them screaming like pigs

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...dr+occult+1.jpg

Or another of Day of Jusdgement's feats (already posted above in my reposted links) where he absorbs all the magic of Phantom Stranger, Zatanna and every other DCU mystic present and gives it to Hal Jordan's soul so that he can fight the Spectre.

How is it possible that he wields such power !!!

Well in fact he doesn't. his disk can absorb magic or natural energy and use it (it's better at magic obviously).

You made the horrible mistake of bringing not one but TWO highly powerful magical talismans into a fight with someone who can wield their very own energy against them.

I'm sorry but there is simply no way you can say your magic weapon is more powerful than mine because mine uses ALL others magic. It will be in this battle powered by Stormbreaker and the soul sword.

Now to your contention that you can cloak yourself from anything.

Your feats of cloaking from Galactus (which I'll be honest I never even opened - I trust you) are great and all.
However in doing so was he in possession of two powerful artifacts that emit great magical energy??
Does Galactus have a power that is attuned specifically to that energy?

Your own scans show that the Soul Sword can sever the bands of Cyttorak. Is Cyttorak not pretty close to Galactus equal??
Just because your able to conceal yourself from Galactus doesn't mean you'll be able to hide your powerful magic talismans from the guy who possesses a talisman that can sense and wield all magic.

To further prove my point during Reign in hell Occult was able to find a way out of hell when No other could. when the ways were concealed so the other "more powerful mystics" couldn't find them.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=2

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=1

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0

1. You wont be undetected.
2. All Your Stormbreaker Attack is going to do is strengthen Occult's shields as they absorb the power of Strombreaker to power them.
3. The same is said for your soul sword attack.

So far you've produced nothing that can harm my build and I haven't even evoked the powers of my more powerful characters.

My speed advantage over you is an immense one

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ort=3&o=203

While that one is Hyperbole this isn't

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=10
Reacting to a Flash level Speedster

Here he catches up to Sinestro (who had a head start) in moments. Somewhere between earth and Mars, in MOMENTS. It takes light 18 minutes to get from Earth to mars. let's be generous and say that they're only a 1/4 the way and moments was a couple of minutes. Still a couple times the speed of light.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=16

In strength and durability he wouldn't be far of BRB (though I'll admit BRB nay have the slight edge)

Then we have Comet's TK/mind over matter. Power that he has used repeatedly to control high energy power sources AGAINST the will and control of their master.

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=34
Control's Sinestro's own ring against him ( a feat that is extremely hard to do, Just ask Mongul. even wielding 10 rings Sinestro turned them against him)

The Combination of Comet, Occult and Starman makes me pretty much the supreme energy manipulator. Able to simply use the energy of anyone against them

quote:
Beatboks, my divine warrior has judged you unworthy!


A judgement your divine warrior made in error much to their chagrin

Old Post Nov 17th, 2015 10:26 AM
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Smurph
------

Gender: Male
Location:

Smurph Post 1


quote: (post)
Originally posted by beatboks
The Combination of Comet, Occult and Starman makes me pretty much the supreme energy manipulator. Able to simply use the energy of anyone against them


Well judges, we've seen Captain Comet manipulate Lantern energies and we've seen Dr. Occult shield/absorb (?) against the energy blast from DoJ Spectre. Truly, Beatboks' energy manipulation is impressive...

...so I guess I'm glad I didn't use an energy attack!

I'm happy that Beatboks is happy that he's used three drafts to achieve what Vulcan could do for one. Vulcan would be great against, say, Captain Atom. My approach, however, is more primitive, and more effective.

While he prepares to redirect a wide variety of energy blasts, a cloaked Stormbreaker will blow a hole through his torso.

First, because this is a debate, I'm going to tackle some of the clashes between our OP's, as well as points Beatboks raised in his post. Then I'm going to get back to why this match inevitable ends with Stormbreaker-through-the-torso:

Occult's Disc of the Seven vs. Soulsword


OK, I'm going to expand on how powerful the Soulsword is, but I really don't think it's necessary:

All of Dr. Occult's noteworthy feats have to do with redirecting, or manipulating, magical energy. Beatboks only posted one feat that actually affected a magical item: that is, not a magical blast of energy:

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2019.jpg.html

Dr. Occult amplifies the energies of Wonder Woman's lasso.

He does not drain them.

Obviously, adding to the power of the lasso is a very different beast than undoing the enchantment that powers the lasso. Judges, unless, based off that scan, you believe that Dr. Occult could simply remove the power of the lasso with a wave of his magic symbol, then the scan has no relevance here. Beatboks claims:

quote:
You made the horrible mistake of bringing not one but TWO highly powerful magical talismans into a fight with someone who can wield their very own energy against them.


...but we have no scans to back up that nonsense.

By all means, Beatboks, amplify the Soulsword and Stormbreaker! Either way, this match only ends one way.

As for comparing the Soulsword to the Disc:

The Soulsword has a wide range of feats that demonstrate its position as the basic antithesis of magic in Marvel.

(please log in to view the image)

code:
"No magic entity or spell can withstand it."


The Soulsword has:



IMPORTANT CONTEXT NOTES:
When wielded by the ruler of Limbo, the Soulsword is significantly more powerful - which is why severing the Juggernaut enchantment was so easy for Magik to do. Previously, she wouldn't be able to accomplish that outside of Limbo.

However, in Uncanny X-Men volume 2, Magik absorbed the entirety of Limbo inside her.

She no longer needs to port to Limbo to access its power, she now carries it with her. She doesn't know how to wield all that power, so she's currently being tutored by a Dr. Strange from the past:

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

It's been shown that, in the future, Magik may become the Sorcerer Supreme for the Galaxy... or something crazy like that.

Now, I want to be really clear here: Magik, with her new power, has not, to my knowledge, done anything beyond the capability of a Low Herald. Further, there isn't a basis for me to extrapolate on all the potential power she might have in order to get a sort of loophole amp for this tourney. I drafted Magik as a low herald because, at this point in time, it's where I believe she belongs.

That said, the only reason I'm going in to all this context is to be upfront about all the little details, as well as to make the following, simple argument:

We know that, in Limbo, Magik's sword is powerful enough to dismiss Juggernaut's enchantment. We know that, outside of Limbo, Magik has done similar feats with similar ease to beings of much less power than Cyttorak (Kulan Gath, Gravemoss, etc), and even accomplished similar highs such as threatening Mephisto, or killing Archenemy.

Therefore, while we may not be able to nail down the average power of the Soulsword - especially now that Illyana carries around Limbo inside of her - we can see that it is a very high average. Dr. Occult, as a caster, simply doesn't measure up. By Beatbok's own admission, Dr. Occult is only powerful when he is able to wield opponent's energy against them - and I am not giving him energy, but rather the pointy end of my sword.

ONE LAST, IMPORTANT POINT ABOUT THE SOULSWORD:

There are some oldschool scans that claim that the Soulsword cannot affect physical beings. The sword has changed, and now this is very far from true:

Renders Black Widow unconscious, not unlike Psylocke's blade)

Cleaves through Sentinel 1
Cleaves through Sentinel 2
...and it's a gigantic Sentinel, and Magik doesn't have super strength.

Beta Ray Bill, however, does. happy

Beta Ray BEAST! lifts Asgard (with Thor)

...so, not only will the Soulsword destroy Beatboks' magic, it will also just obliterate him physically.

Sensors vs. Stealth


...not much to say here. Firstly, these scans didn't work for me:

quote:
To further prove my point during Reign in hell Occult was able to find a way out of hell when No other could. when the ways were concealed so the other "more powerful mystics" couldn't find them.


but, those scans sound totally irrelevant anyways. Basically, if Beatboks is going to argue that Occult can sense precise magical energies in order to track down concealed opponents, then he needs to prove that Occult can do that. Finding a mysterious route in hell doesn't sound like remotely the same thing, and probably has more to do with the fact that Occult is a f*cking supernatural detective, but hey, what do I know anyways.

It's worth noting that, if I need to conceal magical energies, Magik can cast Cyttorak's Spell of Invisibility, but until Beatboks provides some sort of weight for an argument that Invisible Boy's stealth isn't enough, I'm going to assume that this scan alone will suffice:

http://s578.photobucket.com/user/Od...alth-1.jpg.html

code:
"No breach of our defenses by anything detectable by sight, sound, or any electromagnetic frequency whatsoever"


... so Starman and Comet's powers should be utterly useless.

Regarding telepathy:

Smite is shielded by Johnny's shields, which are super versions of Sue Storm's shields (Johnny and Sue swapped powers prior to Johnny's heraldization). Sue's shields have a long history of blocking out mental powers entirely. Johnny's invisibility also apparently blocks out Galactus' own cosmic awareness. I can get further into this if necessary.

Comet's Squishy Stomach vs. Stormbreaker


This is how I imagine the battle ending:

(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)

This is a reckoning, Beatboks.

SMITE! has judged you unworthy.

Last edited by Smurph on Nov 18th, 2015 at 06:18 AM

Old Post Nov 18th, 2015 06:10 AM
Smurph is currently offline Click here to Send Smurph a Private Message Find more posts by Smurph Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
beatboks
ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

Post #2
quote:
I'm happy that Beatboks is happy that he's used three drafts to achieve what Vulcan could do for one.

Oh since when does Vulcan have 100++ Strength, invulnerability, FTL speed and reactions and TP/TK?? All these things are brought by Captain Comet to my amalgam.

How about unmatched knowledge of the history of an opponent (or anything) instantly, intangibility, teleportation, and the ability to cast magic spells, create illusions, control others through "magical hypnosis ?? all these thing are brought to my amalgam by Occult.

Clearly just two of my character choices bring a LOT more than what choosing Vulcan alone would bring. Starman brings what Vulcan would (though I've never seen Vulcan create an anti matter duplicate of anything), with the added advantages of a lot of what a GL can do, plus gravity manip and apparently control of the earth. Well it is after all "cosmic power" his rod taps

Occult's Disc of the Seven vs. Soulsword 2.0
quote:

Dr. Occult amplifies the energies of Wonder Woman's lasso.

He does not drain them.


.............but we have no scans to back up that nonsense.

REALLY
Judges let me ask you how can it be that a character who struggles against Vampires, serpents and robots

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0

can produce shields in Reign in hell that withstand explosions that laid huge areas of hell to waste (these very same explosions I might add destroyed the prison that held Lobo in check)

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=46
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ort=3&o=121

He can shield himself from the Spectre but a robot can "beat him to a bloody pulp".

The answer Judges is simple when he faced those things there was no significant energy to draw on for the disk to use. That is why when he faces Vampires his disk is of no more use than a crucifix.

Also Judges re the "drain of artifact's" and lack of evidence. Last time I checked ALL of the power of Dr Fate came from Artifacts. The Helm of Nabu, the Cloak of Destiny, and the Amulet of Anubis. In the scan I showed of Occult blasting the demon's three he stated that he was using the "combined power of Order .......". The only agent of order present was Dr Fate. If Occult couldn't draw on the power of an artifact then he couldn't be using the power of Order. So I guess there was another feat of a "magical item being drained" that you missed.

Here is where I expect Smuph to say "but all those characters are touching Occult". To which I have a simple question, How do your attacks work without connecting. Even if it required Occult to touch the source of a magic to draw on it then (which my other scans belie) than the manner of attack chosen would still allow Occult to power his own very protection from the magical artifacts used against him.

If All I had was the speed an reaction of Occult, that might be a problem (this is the defense always thrown up when I used Occult as a solo character in tourneys the attack will hit before you raise the disk to repel it). In this instance however I have the reaction of Captain Comet who is loads faster than all your build combined, combined with Occult's "danger sense that even detected the cloaked threat of the Anti-monitor etc

Added to which even without the disk Richard's own body has a "natural resistance to magic"

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=65

So Occult's own body is resistant to the magical aspects of these artifacts. The bullet plucked from Superman in Black Reign was slowly killing him even though it struck in a non vital spot (his shoulder). Yet for Occult it was a minor annoyance. Oh I guess this is where we hear all about Superman's "weakness" to magic, but his weakness doesn't make him more vulnerable to magic than others he just doesn't have a defense any better than anyone else. Occult on the other hand does.

Judges I don't believe I said anywhere that Occult depowers anything, only that his disk can be powered by any magic around. There is simply no other way most of his feats against high end opponents are possible when you take into consideration his showings against the more mundane. His disk has always only ever been a stalemating factor against superior forces, and has as yet failed to match any high end magic it has faced. Smurph stated that the disk was not in the league of the soul Sword and to combat that fact has simply offered feats in the EXACT same league of those I've shown for the disk.

So scratch the magical significance of the artifacts that Smurph's build wields. they are completely insignificant. That brings us down to the physical damage they can do.

Detection/cloaking
Well they didn't work for me either, and having just tried to reload them it appears the address is too long as when i preview half the address isn't in the URL. So I'll try a different link

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...38+-+page+9.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+12.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+14.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+20.jpg
Basically he was able to detect what none of the other mystics could. Let's put some context on this.

Dr fate couldn't detect a way out. Yet the previous Fate when not much more experienced than this one at the time of Reign in hell could watch every high end magic user, only the Phantom Stranger was aware of it.

Sargon Jnr couldn't find a way out. Yet his Grand Father was able to be completely aware of every action undertaken by Kullak even though that powerful entity could hide his actions from the Spectre. Jnr had a MORE direct link to the jewel because he embedded it in his forehead.

Occult pretty much states (more than once) that all he has to do is want it badly enough and he can find anything.

quote:
Basically, if Beatboks is going to argue that Occult can sense precise magical energies in order to track down concealed opponents, then he needs to prove that Occult can do that. Finding a mysterious route in hell doesn't sound like remotely the same thing, and probably has more to do with the fact that Occult is a f*cking supernatural detective, but hey, what do I know anyways.


The way he managed to "find that mysterious way through hell" was that he detected the magic being done on earth by Jason Blood and a few others
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+21.jpg
A concealment spell that prevented anyone from finding a way out of hell couldn't stop Occult from detecting a magical power far and away below the power of your two artifacts.
FACT PROVEN.
Can't break magic
you may have missed
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...l+sorceries.jpg
And that was teh same Enchantress who a couple of issues before wielded all magic users power to amp Billy Batson

Come in Captain Comet's durability
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...0%2012.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...o%2010.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...0%2011.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...20%207.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...20%209.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...20%208.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...bo%206.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...20%203.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...bo%201.jpg.html
while parasites that had no enhancing of his abilities controlled him he fought Lobo and the Legion core team for 7 pages tanking everything they could dish out. Thie same Lobo who stomped a team of JLAers including MMH, Guy Gardner and others in a page and a half.
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...pg.html?filters[user]=114069657&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0
Tanking repeated blows of Superman.
Adaptability
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...poison.jpg.html
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...%20him.jpg.html
His "futuristic body" has always managed to adapt to any new type of attack quickly (there are literally hundreds of scans like these).
and regeneration
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...imself.jpg.html
Using his mind over matter he could heal himself from brain damage is seconds.

Old Post Nov 18th, 2015 12:42 PM
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Smurph
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Smurph Post 2


First some quick rebuttals re: Occult's magic. After, I'm going to explain why speed is a nonissue, and I'm going to expand on Johnny's Cosmic Awareness, including why its critical role in undoing Beatboks:

The Quack Occult


Beatboks doesn't present any new evidence for Dr. Occult, substituting scans with a lot of wishful thinking.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by beatboks

REALLY
Judges let me ask you how can it be that a character who struggles against Vampires, serpents and robots

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0

can produce shields in Reign in hell that withstand explosions that laid huge areas of hell to waste (these very same explosions I might add destroyed the prison that held Lobo in check)

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=46
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ort=3&o=121
Points to takeaway:

  • Beatboks argues that Dr. Occult would be slain by Buffy. Again, the first link doesn't work, but I think we understand that Occult < Vampires.

  • Not all parts of an explosion hold the same power. Experiencing an explosion/fall upon entering hell is different than being in the middle of the blast zone (ie, Lobo's prison).

  • These scans are, as before, totally irrelevant to Beatboks' defense. BB needs to prove that Occult can tap into the power of an opponents' magic object and use it against them -- draw out energies that are stored, and unwilling to be tapped into.

    Showing Dr. Occult shielding himself from an explosion, and arguing that he is being powered by the energies of the explosion -- manipulating those energies for his own purpose is obviously different.

    As I said before, Occult manipulating a magic blast that's targeted at him is a very different beast to, say, drawing the energy out Mjolnir (or, obviously, Stormbreaker) as it hurtles towards his head.

    Could Occult stop Diana's bracelets from being invulnerable, or use the lasso's power against Diana?


To beat this nail down further: unlike Diana's lasso (which was given to her, and powered, by the gods), the Soulsword is actually a part of Magik's soul, and powered by her, the Hell Lord of Limbo. Beatboks has a high bar of evidence to reach to prove that Occult can use the sword/its energies against her.

Once again, we just have a feat of Occult manipulating ambient magical energy.


quote:
Also Judges re the "drain of artifact's" and lack of evidence. Last time I checked ALL of the power of Dr Fate came from Artifacts. The Helm of Nabu, the Cloak of Destiny, and the Amulet of Anubis. In the scan I showed of Occult blasting the demon's three he stated that he was using the "combined power of Order .......". The only agent of order present was Dr Fate. If Occult couldn't draw on the power of an artifact then he couldn't be using the power of Order. So I guess there was another feat of a "magical item being drained" that you missed.
uh...

Here's the scan in question

  1. Hosts gain access to Fate's powers through the helmet. That's not to say that those powers come from the helmet themselves.

    Donald Blake struck his cane to transform into Thor =/= the cane is Thor

  2. Everybody touching Occult was willing to transfer power. Fate willingly empowering the Symbol of the Seven is, again, different than the Symbol using Fate's power against him.

  3. Again, this feat deals with magical energies. I am not either blasting or willingly transfering energy to you. I am smiting you with a big sword.


Basically, Dr. Occult's disc is sorta like Black Knight's shield, but Boks would rather that he works like Black Alice...

..which reminds me, power copying is banned in this tourney. Even if Occult could tap into Magik's energies to grow more powerful and use them against her, it would be an illegal move.


Finally, let's address the myth of Occult's mystic senses:

quote:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...38+-+page+9.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+12.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+14.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+20.jpg
Basically he was able to detect what none of the other mystics could.

...

Occult pretty much states (more than once) that all he has to do is want it badly enough and he can find anything.

The way he managed to "find that mysterious way through hell" was that he detected the magic being done on earth by Jason Blood and a few others
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...8+-+page+21.jpg
A concealment spell that prevented anyone from finding a way out of hell couldn't stop Occult from detecting a magical power far and away below the power of your two artifacts.
FACT PROVEN.


Beatboks: Dr. Cosmos can detect Smite, despite stealth that fooled Galactus, via tracking magical energies mid-battle

Smurph: Prove it

Beatboks: [ Posts scan of Dr. Occult taking 4 pages and who-knows-how-long to find a path through Hell, no mention of 'concealment spell', literally requires walking around with a divining rod ]

I suppose maybe Boks is hoping that between this particular 'feat' and Comet's scientific genius, that the process can be sped up to a instantaneous-magic-tracker-that's-better-than-Galactus!.

Without evidence? Wishful thinking.

Old Post Nov 19th, 2015 07:49 PM
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Thus far, Beatboks has been putting forward an argument that Dr. Occult + FTL speed poses a significant threat to Smite. We've seen that Occult's feats are less than they're built up to be, now let's take a look at the speed edge...

Controlling The Pace


First, let's compare speed. Then, let's chat about how it doesn't matter anyways.

quote:
I have the reaction of Captain Comet who is loads faster than all your build combined


Hah, what?

Beta Ray BEAST! fights at faster-than-light speeds

Those panels involve BRB keeping pace with Surfer while fighting alongside Skuttlebutt, BRB's interstellar ship... Skuttlebutt can travel quickly between planets, and is operating at max speed (as the dialogue indicates).

Let's be conservative and estimate that the ship is traveling at 2x light speed. 2x light speed is the tourney cap - even if Comet's hyperbole really means he can move near-Silver Age flash speeds, it is irrelevant because we are capped at the same speeds.

As I was saying though, speed's not going to make the difference in this match:

  • Portals are instant, and Magik can make many of them if need be. Captain Comet and Beta Ray Bill may be capped at the same fighting speed, but Smite's method of attack is infinitely faster.

  • Stealth - unless Beatboks can back up the lofty goal of finding away around Johnny's stealth, then speed doesn't enter the discussion: Dr. Cosmos will only know Smite's location when he feels a blade through his abdomen.

  • Cosmic Awareness - Thanks to Johnny's universal awareness, Smite will always know exactly where his prey is, negating any advantage in travel speed. It's a simple matter of knowing where everything is, and being able to instantly reach that space (see 'Portals are instant').



This brings me to my last post point:

Cosmic Awareness: What Dr. Occult wished he could access


Firstly,
quote:
This is where I’ll get the argument that I’m breaching the time manipulation rules. I’m not because Occult can’t and never could affect the past only view it. He can’t do anything there or change anything. It’s a source of knowledge only.


no expression Stepping outside time is time manipulation, whether or not you can affect the past. Time travel, including traveling outside time, has always been squarely within a forum understanding of time manip.

Judges, I'll leave this up to you. It doesn't ultimately change Dr. Cosmos' fate, but an obvious rule breach is an obvious rule breach.

Secondly,

quote:
How about unmatched knowledge of the history of an opponent (or anything) instantly, intangibility, teleportation, and the ability to cast magic spells, create illusions, control others through "magical hypnosis ?? all these thing are brought to my amalgam by Occult.


Unmatched? smile

No, friend. That honour goes to Johnny Storm, the Invisible Boy:

http://s578.photobucket.com/user/Od...ness-2.jpg.html

code:
"You needed someone to recognize the invisible--so you've got me doing that on the ultimate level! I have a whole new way to see the universe! It's like.. it's like... 'Cosmic Sight' It just sort of automatically appears to me! Seeing all things as the actually are"


You cannot hide from Johnny Storm, and you cannot escape Magik.

Here, Johnny uses his cosmic awareness on Galactus:
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/...Awareness-3.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/...Awareness-4.jpg
http://s578.photobucket.com/user/Od...ness-5.jpg.html

Here, Johnny's cosmic awareness and power cosmic allows him to actually kill an enemy, put him back together, and bring him/keep him alive:
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/.../Johnnyvs-1.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/.../Johnnyvs-2.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/.../Johnnyvs-3.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/.../Johnnyvs-4.jpg

Here, Johnny's cosmic awareness shows him the inners of an alien warhead, including how to disarm it:
http://s578.photobucket.com/user/Od...mada-1.jpg.html

and then to disarm the entire missile array:
http://s578.photobucket.com/user/Od...mada-2.jpg.html

Johnny's automatic understanding and awareness of both the physical, energy, and other properties of his environment and opponents guarantees that Smite will know exactly how to dismantle Dr. Cosmos' defense and person.

happy

Old Post Nov 19th, 2015 07:50 PM
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beatboks
ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

POST # 3
It’s interesting that Smurph says I’ve offered no new evidence because his claims are contrary to the evidence I’ve offered.
He says I’ve supplied no proof that Occult can undo magic (only “amplify” I believe were his words), yet I clearly show him smashing Enchantresses spells and stating on panel that his disk “undoes ALL sorceries”
He states that I’ve supplied no evidence of Occult “drawing on the power of magical artefacts”, yet I have shown he clearly state that he uses the power of order (from Dr Fate) which comes from artefacts.
I wasn’t aware it was “wishful thinking” when it’s actually stated on panel in the scans provided.
quote:
Not all parts of an explosion hold the same power. Experiencing an explosion/fall upon entering hell is different than being in the middle of the blast zone (ie, Lobo's prison).

This part made me smile, Smurph is almost giving it to me. He’s right, unfortunately it’s not how he believes. You See Occult was equal distance from the blast as Lobo’s prison. The blast was right on top of Occult’s head, the area of hell coming down on his head was the area of the prison. Occult wasn’t “entering hell” at that point he’d been travelling though hell for quite a while (3 issues). You’ll notice in the scan Occult is almost at the top of a hole, out of which we have this http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
The fight of Etrigan and BD.
In the first scan with Occult his shield protects from the blast and some small shrapnel. The second scan of the shield has the entire area collapsing on his head. Here is the next page of the BD Etrigan fight
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
That figure walking out of the explosion, is Lobo.
Compare that to
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
When he fights werewolves he needs a gun with silver bullets, when he fights Vampires (which he beats) his disk is only like a crucifix. When he fights robots made from 1940’s tech (with likely a 12 volt battery) no force field capability. But apparently this doesn’t prove that he is powered by the energy or magic that is near him??
(Finally worked out where I go wrong with scans. The titles of them in my image folders are too long on many. So when I upload to image providers it makes the address too long for the site)
quote:
Showing Dr. Occult shielding himself from an explosion, and arguing that he is being powered by the energies of the explosion -- manipulating those energies for his own purpose is obviously different.
But that isn’t what I’ve shown. I’ve shown that a man who can’t cast shields at all when facing things without energy can cast shields as powerful as what ever energy is brought against him. If he doesn’t get the energy from them how is that possible?? Never mind the fact that it’s stated on panel that his disk absorbs and redirects natural and supernatural energy.
Detection/ cloaking
So the best proof Smurph has provided is concealing from Galactus. As I’ve already Said Sargon Snr could using the ruby of life (his power artefact) sense what was hidden from both Corrigan Spectre and Classic fate
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
At the start of Reign in Hell Zatanna went to Sargon Jnr to help them find a way into hell because of this (and he did) http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...e%2020.jpg.html
concealing from Galactus = to concealing from Spectre. Sargon can break such concealments and Occult can break those Sargon can’t.
Now as for “4 pages and who-knows-how-long to find a path through Hell’ The thing that Occult tracked was the energy of Jason Blood’s magic after he’d been cut off from Etrigan (several issues ago) on another dimensional plane.
Soulsword power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jason blood
On the same battlefield a few hundred meters at best <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< another dimesnion
….THE SHUT OUT….[/B]
Let’s assume for a moment that I actually can’t detect Smite. Occult’s “lot to know things” pretty much matches the Cosmic knowledge ( it’s really just my supposition that he gets this through his step out of time for which the only showings are those I gave, he’s normally just depicted knowing stuff). So I’m aware of who and what I’m facing.
So I can’t find Smite, Oh what will I do. Well I have vastly greater reactions so my response will be before Smite has thrown Stormbreaker and it will be this.
Using the star rod I create a large area of both anti gravity and repulsive magnetic force around myself (the star rod was originally called the gravity rod).
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...sort=3&o=53
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...ravity.jpg.html
I further use Comet’s TK to mentally push away in all directions
http://s158.photobucket.com/user/DC...-46-22.jpg.html
He can TK something So forcefully that Lobo, the guy with the feat of pulling stellar mass from the sky struggled to stop it from impaling him (still cut though)
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...Synn_1.jpg.html
or TK shield himself and others from Omynar Synn
then while becoming intangible using Occult intangibility while I ash out with a mental energy unidirectional blast that will attack you anywhere
http://s158.photobucket.com/user/DC...-46-22.jpg.html
As a final stance if this doesn’t seem to lay my opponent low I simply start filling the area with anti matter
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...matter.jpg.html
1. I have a means of defense for any type of attack Smurph can mount.
2. Occult’s “lot to know things matches the Cosmic Knowledge (more showings can prove) so I will know instantly if what I have thought to do has a problem.
3. My speed/reaction means that I can change from what ever attack or defence I was going to mount before Smurph has any chance to make anything stick. But hey, my speed is irrelevant right?? I mean the fact that I can mount szerveral of these attacks/defences before Stormbreaker is even left your hand means nothing.
4. My durability http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...0Supes.jpg.html means I can tank the physical attack of Stormbreaker striking me even if the defence I can mount doesn’t send it straight back at my adversary.
5. My anti gravity field means that when Smite ports in range to use the Sword he’ll be flying away before he can do a damn thing with it even without the TK defense pushing him (and when I’m not in defence mode, I’ll be intangible anyway)
6. The Shields I can create with the Disk of the 7 have ample proof of protecting me from Smite as they have from far greater threats on a much higher level.
7. The antimatter I can create (which was done in battle) can be slowly spread to fill the coliseum except in my immediate vicinity ensuring total victory
But hey all I did with my three picks was draft Vulcan, that I could have gotten with one
game over as the battlefield is covered in Smite’s blood

This time I wrote in Word so I could repost after previewing. I have tested every link in preview with no issues so Hope there is no problems.
Saw you post as soon as I posted so editing this in.

On the speed, just want to say. The scan says the ship is slowing down. Nothing what so ever to indicate faster than light at all. Nice try though. I guess teh speed was important after all heh ;D

Last edited by beatboks on Nov 20th, 2015 at 01:42 AM

Old Post Nov 20th, 2015 01:37 AM
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beatboks
ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
Location: Australia

POST # 4
SPEED
First I said reaction speed not travel speed. I’ve shown feats of Comet reacting to a Flash level character. Not to mention it was a TK attack that had to move something else. I don’t doubt that Bill can travel at FTL speed much the same way Thor can (Hammer throw) but neither react at those speeds.
Now let’s look at your scan.
1. Bill is clearly inside the event of Skuttlebutt’s forcefield. In effect he’s being carried by the ships own velocity.
2. The ship is moving away from Surfer . If your right about the ship travelling faster than light there is relativity involved. That is to say if I’m travelling light speed away from soeething (as Skuttlbut was) and that something is travelling at 1.5 times light speed relative to me it’s at half my light speed. That’s why when we enter a slower speed limit as drivers after driving in higher speed zones for some time everything appears to be slow)
3. As I stated it states on panel “slowing down to failure state”
4. How is this a good reaction feat for Bill?? I mean he gets one hit on Surfers board and then can’t seem to dodge or avoid any of Surfers attacks.
Other evidence I’ve seen to attempt to suggest that BRB has high speed reactions over the years are things like this
http://s673.photobucket.com/user/ga...speed2.jpg.html
http://s673.photobucket.com/user/ga...speed3.jpg.html
I’ve seen this offered for FTL perception and reactions. Yet in it BRB states “Beyond that …… Your guess is as good as mine” This clearly indicates that while he could perceive it he couldn’t perceive it all. In short, not even Light speed perceptions. Definitely not FTL perceptions, or reactions.
quote:
Let's be conservative and estimate that the ship is traveling at 2x light speed

If the ship IS travelling at 2x Light speed, it makes that feat even worse for BRB. It means that even with the relativity advatage of 2x light speed = 0 SS could still tag him unstopped/ blocked/dodged.
quote:
Portals are instant, and Magik can make many of them if need be. Captain Comet and Beta Ray Bill may be capped at the same fighting speed, but Smite's method of attack is infinitely faster.


Isn’t it just so unfortunate then that I have the exact same ability??
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...4+-+page+35.jpg
As for the speed of his teleporting
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
He ports from Jarred Stephens home to his Jail cell teaches him how to dimensionally travel and back again all before the cup of coffee he was holding in his hand (sitting at a table) falls to the ground. I’d call that pretty damn instant also.
quote:
Stepping outside time is time manipulation, whether or not you can affect the past. Time travel, including traveling outside time, has always been squarely within a forum understanding of time manip.

Really here is the definition from two separte sources
quote:
Definition 1.
manipulate
[muh-nip-yuh-leyt]
1. to manage or [/u]influence[/u] skillfully, especially in an unfair manner:
to manipulate people's feelings.
2. to handle, manage, or use, especially with skill, in some process of treatment or performance:
to manipulate a large tractor.
3. to adapt or change (accounts, figures, etc.) to suit one's purpose or advantage.
Definition 2
to ‘move or control’]/u] (something) with your hands or by using a machine
medical : to move (muscles and bones) with your hands as a form of treatment
to use or ‘[u]change
’ (numbers, information, etc.) in a skillful way or for a particular purpose


The fact that Occult can’t “alter/adapt/change” the past or in anyway ‘Influence/move/manage/handle” it is pretty much as contrary to the definition of manipulate as you can get. You can try calling it something that it isn’t but the actual definition of the word counters that. Show me any character in fiction other than Occult who can travel time and can’t actually involve themselves or affect it??

quote:
No, friend. That honour goes to Johnny Storm, the Invisible Boy:

Phantom Stranger is known to be nigh Omniscient. He “sees all things as they “ARE” (as in the right now) and yet Occult has a greater perspective than him
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
The Trenchcoat brigade had just met the man and yet occult knew everything about him, more so than even the stranger who is aware of the darkness/evil/danger every being is/will face.
Your feats don’t show any greater than I have shown with Occult simply knowing all about who he has just met.
I find it interesting however that you claimed only a few posts ago that because Occult took a few pages to find the equivalent of a 12v battery ( the comparitive power of Jason Blood detatched from Etrigan compared to the Soul sword – being a power station) on the other side of the continent (the comparison of being in another plan of existence as opposed to within a battlefield the size of the Colesium) that it wasn’t much a detection feat. Then you offer up for invisible boy three pages for his cosmic knowledge to know the ins and outs of a freaking super nova feet from him ( the power of galen compared to the soul sword)
quote:
Johnny's automatic understanding and awareness of both the physical, energy, and other properties of his environment and opponents guarantees that Smite will know exactly how to dismantle Dr. Cosmos' defense and person


Last time I checked in the MU power cosmic was considered natural energy. Under the stipulations of how Occult’s disk works according to his Who’s Who entry and the files shown on him in Day of Judgement (plus showings) that would mean all the assaults you just showed would simply be deflected back at you. Unless that is you can show me a power attack that is Superior to that of the Spectre during Day of Judgement.
Your operating on a no limits fallacy, while I have shown limits of the ability of the disk to return attacks and your “smite” simply doesn’t make the cut.
There are a few scenarios that can play here.
1. My detection works just as I said and I simply redirect all the attacks of Smite straight back at him. The fact that occult has been able to sense much lower magical sources of energy than my opponent possesses. Sense them from vastly further away and through concealments that are at the very least equal if not Superior ( since Sargon can detect things hidden from even Spectre and Occult can detect what Sargon cannot) should be proof enough of that.
2. Occult can’t sense my opponent and with my faster REACTIONS I go defensive and enact the second attack plan before his takes effect. A plan that has me go slightly on the defensive teleporting around the battlefield creating pockets of anti matter in my wake , and anti gravity and reverse polarity magnetics (making wielding weapons with metal against me pretty hard)
3. Smite actually connects with stormbreaker before I react which because of my Durability that can take repeated blows from Superman, go toe to toe with Lobo (who can pull stellar mass from the sky) still means I react and go intangible and port etc etc long before the soul sword ever get’s used against me.
4. Smite brings up the power cosmic as he did in the scans in Smurph’s last post and it get’s turned back on him.
There is literally no scenario where Smite takes the win.

Old Post Nov 21st, 2015 02:39 PM
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Smurph
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Location:

Smurph Post 4


Reading Comprehension at Super Speeds!

quote:
First I said reaction speed not travel speed. I’ve shown feats of Comet reacting to a Flash level character. Not to mention it was a TK attack that had to move something else. I don’t doubt that Bill can travel at FTL speed much the same way Thor can (Hammer throw) but neither react at those speeds.


... you showed Captain Comet lift some grass to stop Johnny Quick. no expression

Not exactly a sustained showing of super reflexes, and entirely to do with telekinesis. You are not going to be able to telekinetically hold off Beta Ray Bill (more on this in a moment), so an actual showing of moving at super speed around opponents would be helpful.

Let's not stretch "Flash level" too far, hey?

quote:
Now let’s look at your scan.
1. Bill is clearly inside the event of Skuttlebutt’s forcefield. In effect he’s being carried by the ships own velocity.
2. The ship is moving away from Surfer . If your right about the ship travelling faster than light there is relativity involved. That is to say if I’m travelling light speed away from soeething (as Skuttlbut was) and that something is travelling at 1.5 times light speed relative to me it’s at half my light speed. That’s why when we enter a slower speed limit as drivers after driving in higher speed zones for some time everything appears to be slow)
3. As I stated it states on panel “slowing down to failure state”
Here's the scan in question

code:
Bill: "To that imperiled world, Skuttlebutt. Make haste. No matter what, do not halt." Skuttlebutt: Understood, sir. Slowing down a failure state
.

Skuttlebutt is not saying that it is "slowing down to failure state", as you claim. Skuttlebutt identifies that to slow down would be to fail. "Failure state", in this case, refers to computer logic of success states and failure states for determining outcome.

As for the relativity argument, I'm comfortable dismissing that as "comic books". Bill is flying beside a ship at super speed, fighting a character with documented super speed, and yet readers will selectively apply physics to try and weaken the feat. It is what it is.


Time Travel = Time Manipulation

Honestly, I don't see this step-outside-time strategy as having a lot of value for Beatboks, but I do believe in rules being applied broadly and fairly, so to that end:

quote:
The fact that Occult can’t “alter/adapt/change” the past or in anyway ‘Influence/move/manage/handle” it is pretty much as contrary to the definition of manipulate as you can get.


I don't feel like I should need to spell this out, but, as comic nerds, we don't need to use the broadest definition of 'manipulation' to interpret our rules.

A conventional understanding of comics and tourneys interprets 'time manipulation' as covering any ability to alter time's "regular flow" in comics, for one person, a limited area, or in a broader sense. This includes time travel.

Stepping outside time, even just to passively observe, is time travel. If you, Beatboks, wanted to argue that this specific application of time travel should be allowed, then you should have brought it up in the discussion thread, before this match started.

Further, I'm sure that 'stepping outside time' also counts as self-BFR, and is banned/self defeating.

Moving on...

Concession Accepted

quote:
Occult’s “lot to know things” pretty much matches the Cosmic knowledge ( it’s really just my supposition that he gets this through his step out of time for which the only showings are those I gave, he’s normally just depicted knowing stuff). So I’m aware of who and what I’m facing.

So I can’t find Smite, Oh what will I do. Well I have vastly greater reactions so my response will be before Smite has thrown Stormbreaker and it will be this.


This is absurd.

Basically, Beatboks wants to backpeddle and use his vaunted "lot to know things" (see: time travel, illegal) to argue that, retroactively, he has the benefit of knowing my strategy, and counter-strategizing.

He undermines this tactic even as he introduces it:

quote:
Let’s assume for a moment that I actually can’t detect Smite.


Yes, let's.

This, judges, is the point of no return for Beatboks.

He has hastily thrown together a plan to use wide-sweeping energy attacks to try and keep me away, and in doing so, remains prey to my three key advantages:

  • Advantage One: Stepping Discs

    quote:
    Using the star rod I create a large area of both anti gravity and repulsive magnetic force around myself (the star rod was originally called the gravity rod)

    ...

    I further use Comet’s TK to mentally push away in all directions
    So basically Beatboks is using his opening moves to start launching energy attacks to push me away.

    So... Smite ports right beside him and impales him. Notably, the soul sword can tag intangible objects (Kitty Pryde, enchantments, anything magical), so Dr. Cosmos is wasting valuable time using Occult's intangibility.

    You can't keep Magik away.

  • Advantage Two: Stealth

    Specifically, not only did I stealth my character, I also stealthed Stormbreaker.

    Beatboks has conceded that Dr. Cosmos will need to plan around Smite's invisibility - so we can reasonably extend that concession to the FTL hammer that is homing in on Cosmos' stomach.

    Remember, it was stealthed before being thrown:

    quote:
    and throws a cloaked Stormbreaker
    .

    So, the match is on track:

    1) Smite teleports beside Cosmos and impales him via soul sword
    2) Cosmos doesn't detect Stormbreaker, loses his torso

    which brings me to...

  • Advantage Three: Motherf*cking Stormbreaker

    Beatboks intends to repel Stormbreaker with energy attacks..

    Colour me amused.

    Behold! STORMBREAKER!

    If you would like to contend that you have superior energy output to Stardust, a high herald, feel free to try and prove it. Despite Dr. Cosmos being a poor man's Vulcan, there's no doubt that Beta Ray Bill has the best energy soak in this tournament, thanks to his hax hammer and godly durability.

    Tanks a planetary explosion.

    Flies through some stars.

    As for your puny shields...

    Planet destroying hammer strikes should cleave through your defenses.

    Remember, judges, when Stormbreaker delivers its reckoning, Dr. Cosmos will have no idea that it is coming, or where to layer his shields.

Old Post Nov 23rd, 2015 09:47 PM
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beatboks
ready for the loony bin

Gender: Male
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post #5 Final post
Speed / Reaction
quote:
Bill is flying beside a ship at super speed, fighting a character with documented super speed

http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...z%20GL.jpg.html
Blitzing GL. Gl’s based on feats being equal to SS in speed. Unlike the Bill scan Comet actually stomped him, not failed to react.
quote:
so an actual showing of moving at super speed around opponents would be helpful.

You mean like
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...?sort=3&o=0
Dodging multiple laser blasts (Lasers as in speed of light, you know being focused light). A few light speed blasts all dodged at short range.
TIME MANIP - NOT
quote:
Time Travel = Time Manipulation

I suggest you read my scans again. Occult doesn’t and never has “time travelled’ Superman even asks him if he took them to the past and he says no. They just stepped off to the side of time, makes it easier to see the past. IF he travelled to the past then he would be physically there and able to affect it, he can’t.
What Occult does is no more than is Done by Dr Straqnge with the eye of Agmotto, Dr Fate with the orb of Nabu or based on your own scans what Invisible boy does with cosmic knowledge.
quote:
Stepping outside time, even just to passively observe, is time travel. If you, Beatboks, wanted to argue that this specific application of time travel should be allowed, then you should have brought it up in the discussion thread, before this match started.

It’s not time travel when it’s stated on panel in the very scans in question that they haven’t “travelled to the time” or as you yourself put it
quote:
A conventional understanding of comics and tourneys interprets 'time manipulation' as covering any ability to alter time's "regular flow" in comics
.
Since Occult can’t “alter time’s regular flow, doesn’t apply. It’s right there on panel in the scan I posted in Occult’s answer to Superman, his statement to Timothy Hunter.
quote:
Further, I'm sure that 'stepping outside time' also counts as self-BFR, and is banned/self defeating.

Also covered in the OP. BFR is allowed under the rules for 1 second. Since once one has “stepped outside of time” (which could be, and IS as simple as stepping onto the astral plane a “timeless dimension” where every single bio, description of Occult’s powers describes as his means of teleportation/ dimensional travel as well as how he becomes intangible) they return to the exact instant they left.
As I stated it is simply depicted as Occult knowing more than others instantly
Here for example
http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/b...0knows.jpg.html
He shows that he has an awareness of things even the Phantom Stranger and Mister E (who sees ALL futures) don’t.
quote:
Concession Accepted

What concession have I made judges. Throughout the last post I continued to debate and show the greater perceptions of of Occult over those that Smurph has shown his character “conceal from” To this stage his greatest concealment feat is hiding from Galan. I have shown several instances of Occult perceiving things hidden from Phantom Stranger (who is equal if not above Galen in perceptions). I have shown Occult detect things that even those who can detect what Spectre and classic Fate cannot.
Judges I said “assume” or in other words suppose to be the case without proof. Which is basically what it is. Smurph hasn’t proven that he can hide from me. His greatest feat of concealment shown is below the level of perceptions I have shown.
There really isn’t much need to cover the rest of this but for the sake of a completely rounded argument.
quote:
So... Smite ports right beside him and impales him. Notably, the soul sword can tag intangible objects (Kitty Pryde, enchantments, anything magical), so Dr. Cosmos is wasting valuable time using Occult's intangibility.

1. Occult’s intangibility isn’t like Kitty’s or anyone else He achieves it by the astral plane. He doesn’t phase.
2. None of those mentioned have “natural resistance to magic” shown on panel that magical weapons that grain the very life force from beings are a minor annoyance.
quote:
Specifically, not only did I stealth my character, I also stealthed Stormbreaker.




1. Does this stealth somehow get around a danger sense that has always shown occult the direction of danger even when those dangers were (so very rarely ) beyond his ability to perceive?
2. Does this in any way make Stormbreaker strike with greater force??
Judges Occult using his disk has put up shields as powerful as what ever magic energy is in his vicinity. In this battle my opponent has supplied plenty of power for this to occur.
Comet has also TP shielded himself from even the likes of Ominar Synnn, a character vastly beyond my opponent’s build.
Comet has further tanked blows from Superman, and Lobo. The same Lobo who can pull stellar mass from the sky
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads.../3350121-11.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads.../3350122-12.jpg
Remind me again what BRB’s best strength feat is?? Ohh that’s right planet busting
Judges planet busting <<<<<<<< pulling stellar mass down, and Lobo couldn’t physically stop a spike from impaling him under Comet’s TK. Let alone put Comet down in a physical fight
quote:
Planet destroying hammer strikes should cleave through your defenses.
and yet stellar mass pulling feats vastly greater couldn’t so I guess that solves that once and for all.

quote:
Remember, judges, when Stormbreaker delivers its reckoning, Dr. Cosmos will have no idea that it is coming, or where to layer his shields.


Judges almost every shield I have depicted has been a completely encasing one. Why would I if I had no knowledge (PRETTY BIG IF) of where an attack is coming from shield in only one way.


Judges let’s look at what Smurph is proposing
1. Smite somehow conceals himself from Cosmos even though his best concealment feats shown are only a match for what those characters who Occult has shown to out perceive.
2. He also manages to somehow conceal two vastly powerful magical talismans from a being who possesses a talisman that can detect vastly weaker (by several magnitudes of order) magical energy through seemingly better concealments than the feats offered
3. Stombreaker somehow breaches shields that are powered not just by the magic that is within storm breaker but also that within the soul sword as well as whatever ambient magic is around.
4. It them ALSO breaches the shield of the star rod that have held up to pre COIE Ultraman ( someone beyond “planet busting” also)
5. Not to mention the telekinetic shields that have protected several from Ominar Synn, taken over the power of the most powerful Green lanterns in the known universe and used it against them, and forced a spike to impale the man who can pull stellar mass from the sky while he’s fighting against it.
6. Then finally it actually strikes the body of Captain Comet who has taken blows from Superman and Lobo with very little effect. A body I might add that because it’s merged with Occult has a “natural resistance to magic”.
7. It’s supposed to do all that and do damage (which courtesy of the shown feats of mind over matter and self healing I can heal from almost instantly) that would somehow prevent Cosmos avoiding another attack???
8. Then Judges we have smite allegedly porting to me and impaling me with a sword also magical against and anti-magic talisman that based on feats is easily it’s equal into a body that has magical resistance and is capable of healing pretty quick

Judges to tie it all together in a neat little bow, we’re expected to believe that a character with Cosmic knowledge who knows everything about my character would commit to such a folly with such dedication when he should be aware it has no chance of success.

Old Post Nov 24th, 2015 12:18 PM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

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Smurph let me know that he's content with what he's already posted so time for judgement.

Leo, Digi & Sin


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Old Post Dec 2nd, 2015 06:00 PM
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leonidas
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just sent in my vote.


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Old Post Dec 5th, 2015 03:47 PM
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Digi
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Vote sent.


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Old Post Dec 5th, 2015 07:05 PM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

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quote:

leonidas wrote on Dec 5th, 2015 10:47 AM:
thoughts as i go along...

boks--plan is to cast illusions and step out of time (illegal so will not be considered throughout the battle), so, illusions, tp scan for smurph then teleport and blast him. scans don't show occult draining anyone's powers in combat, even when occult fought enchantress is no good as he was possessed by ENVY, and the sins always amp their host so throwing that out. starman scans--underwhelming. some decent feats but nothing that made me go, whoa.... comet is a solid choice.

can smurph hide from comet's very solid tp and defend against it?

smurph--a number of scans don't work....what is it with you guys?? simple plan--cloak, shield and throw. is his cosmic awareness able to sift through the illusions to find the real boks? does he have any showings against tp? atm, seems like he would need time to FIND the real boks, so the throw wouldn't happen immediately.

hrm. would comet be able to find smurph with his tp before smurph finds the real boks? seems likely both would teleport after realizing they would need time to find each other and that throws everything out of whack....

boks--tries showing occult's power but i'm not convinced. one scan of him blasting spectre is meaningless and references aren't doing it either. he claims the disc can absorb the magic from the weapons forcibly--surely must have a scan of that and not just 'interpretation' of such?? disc vs sword--i'll call it a wash because there is no real way to know how they would impact each other. speed advantage? smurph has a herald.... don't buy the speed edge being very large at all. and really not buying that the disc would simply absorb the power of the hammer AS it is being thrown at him...

but would smurph be able to find him to throw it before comet finds him with tp?? still don't know.

smurph--correctly calls into question the disc's showings. still don't know how the sword/disc would interact and seems pointless anyway at this point. smurph's right though--no proof it could drain the hammer, especially AS it is being thrown at him.... sword could def dispel illusions but it's not being used for that. cloak shield throw. how does he find the real boks?? correctly questions occult's senses. could occult sense the hammer? need more proof from occult. smurph did not do a good job of convincing me he could hide from comet's tp. sue's shield is proof vs tk, but there is mixed proof at best regarding sue's shields and tp. so comet MAY be able to find him, even if occult can't.... still don't know for sure, nor how long it would take. smurph never did address the illusions.....i am convinced he has the more powerful character at this point though.

still don't know if smurph can find the real boks before boks can find smurph or exactly what each would do if their initial plans were forced to be delayed.....

boks--wastes time replying to smurph's jab. never a good idea. this is a very poor and confusing post. he expects us to agree with his interpretation of why he can fight some and not others. that isn't gonna fly. on panel proof is needed that the disc can absorb or be powered by ambient magic. and how much time does it take to get powered up? if there isn't on panel proof i'll be forced to ignore this. also--all he needs to do is want to know it bad enough and he can find anything?? yeah, need a LOT more proof of this....

left scratching my head after this post....focus is occult and his senses, not comet and his tp. i'll take this into account as i go forward. it's not just magic he's looking for--it's cloaked by power cosmic so his magic finding is at least partially irrelevant. dearth of proof and a veering away from what could be his trump card....

smurph--correctly calls into question the same things i've been questioning re the lack of support for bok's claims... speed is a wash, especially given the teleporting of both. FINALLY--smurph shows the extent of his cosmic senses.

i believe it likely smurph could find boks through the illusions, or at least detect the REAL star rod (though smurph should have made that claim himself...) fast enough?

boks posts--again relies on his interpretations of a scan and takes too much time defending a scan. interpretation shouldn't be necessary--it's stated on panel or it isn't. and it isn't. also, no pretty "pretty much gets" cosmic awareness. FINALLY addresses what happens if he can't find smurph. doesn't say he would port though and tk is a good option but smurph's shields will defend it. would he have time to use his star man attacks? maybe. could he survive a hit from a cloaked hammer? maybe, but he'd be in really bad shape. had he shielded it would have changed things. next post deals with speed which is a non issue imo since both are fast and can teleport. wastes time definding time manip which is illegal regardless of how he tries to defend it. detecting magic is one thing, detecting through a cosmic shield is altogether different.

still think smurph finds him. boks should have focused on comet's tp--it is his best chance at finding smurph who seems to have no proof he could hide his mind.

smurph--again correctly calls into question much of boks interpretations. smurph counters bok's quick change of plans. i agree--the disc isn't redirecting the hammer...

would smurph find him before bok's plan b comes into play? maybe? even if he doesn't he has answers for bok's plan.

boks'--more on speed and time manip.... circles....again claims the disc can be powered but still no proof nor any idea of how long it would take. had he used a tp shield from the start maybe it would have helped. too much scrambling against a very straight-forward plan. talks about shields--no shield raised in battle part of OP.

ok, sorry for the length. i had a hard time following parts of this. can't believe neither addressed the illusions which i thought were a big issue throughout this. they may have allowed time for boks to find smurph or forced him to change. by the time the change of tactics was brought up, smurph had easy answers. boks made a big error in not focusing on his tp as a source of finding smurph. once both initial plans were tossed, it could have been very difficult but again boks didn't move or teleport (or didn't focus on it). too diffuse an offense vs smurph's more surgical tactic. this was as much about debating skill and focus as the characters for me. and while the characters COULD have been close, the debate really wasn't. boks def had his chances, but my vote goes to smurph.


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Old Post Dec 6th, 2015 01:20 AM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

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quote:

Digi wrote on Dec 5th, 2015 02:05 PM:

“Be the change you wish to see in the world.”
- Hitler, maybe

Alright, Boks v. Smurph. This is my usual style; a rambling list of stuff as I read through the match. My opinions may change as the comments go further.

- That disc of Occult’s is a helluva plot device. Powerful stuff. Will it repel the sword, though, which itself is something that severs magic? And what other magic is Smurph bringing to bear? Stormbreaker has somewhat mystical origins, but is basically a melee weapon. Interesting discussion to be had here.
- Punking Mephisto in his realm has to be the most overrated feat in comics. How many characters have done it at this point? Just an observation; I don’t actually think it’s a huge knock on the sword. I just think it’s an overrated feat.
- Similarly, one Silver Age feat of dubious and undefined reflexes doesn’t mean he’s > Flash in reflexes. The myriad feats of Comet brawling with other herald-style bricks without reactions feats (many of which are impressive for other reasons, mind you), kinda dispel this. Comet’s a much more impressive pick than I thought he’d be. But a speedster he is not. Juxtapose lifting some grass with, say, BRB’s fight with Surfer and the hilarious comparison really becomes clearer.
- Boks, starting after your writeup, the formatting of your posts improved greatly. Gotta work on the scans, though. I don’t know why you’re having so much trouble with them, but there were some not working for me. I use Imgur, which has been a godsend for me. Maybe it’s time for a switch from Photobucket? Good news is, enough worked that I don’t think anything affected my estimation of the match.
- Both are trying to out-stealth each other, but it’s a bit of a moot point, yeah? How long are either of you planning on staying stealthed after the match starts? Both have speed enough to tag the other, and stealth is basically just to get first strike in. It’s not a completely worthless consideration, but I’m honestly unconcerned if I deduce who would detect who.
- Lots of other near-washes. Cosmic awareness v. time viewing. Speed vs. speed. I get that one of you will have a slight edge in these departments. But it’s small, and I’m looking for what will decide the match.
- Jesus Smurph. You made us wait for those energy soak scans with Stormbreaker, didn’t you? I was nearly honor-bound to vote against you if you didn’t use them.

I thought this match focused a little too much on undermining and countering the others’ plans. At times it was hard to imagine what you guys were using as sustained attacks.

For Boks, Comet was the main offense it seemed, and it was quite impressive. The anti-matter shenanigans were a nice touch, and Comet has held his own or won against opponents that put him in the same discussion as anyone in this tournament. Your initial plan fell a bit flat, though. Illusions are easily cut through with cosmic awareness, and are a momentary distraction at best anyway, and TP was a non-starter as well. This puts you aware – and, presumably, teleporting around – but on the defensive at first.

Smurph had the more coherent plan out of the gate. Cloaked Stormbreaker, and teleport + soul sword was a simple but effective way to avoid the pitfalls that the matchup with Occult presented while keeping a strong offensive mindset.

Assuming Stormbreaker doesn’t entirely blindside Boks (I don’t really know if it would or not), I do think Occult’s shielding holds up against its initial strike, and several subsequent strikes. Stormbreaker isn’t a magical item that emanates magical energy, though. It’s a melee weapon that absorbs and redirects energy. That Smurph is only using the soul sword in close quarters further hinders Boks’s attempted draining.

So I actually don’t see this going down quickly. Occult’s shielding is impressive, Comet’s soak is impressive, and the same is true for Johnny and BRB. And the combined shielding and manipulation capabilities of both teams means that ganking the others’ energies or attacks to use against them is likely a tall order.

So who wins an extended brawl? Smurph. Occult wasn’t used for offense a ton. And, as impressive as Comet is, I saw very little that couldn’t be matched by the combined efforts of the power cosmic and Stormbreaker.

Boks, your loss here was marginal. A slightly better plan, matchup, or pairing with either of your picks, and you could have won. Comet’s an amazing, catch-all beast, and I was impressed with your usage of him. This wasn’t easy, and if this were a vs. match instead of a tourney, I’d probably be saying something like “Smurph wins 7/10” instead of 10/10.


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Old Post Dec 6th, 2015 01:21 AM
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psycho gundam
The Nightmare of Solomon

Gender: Male
Location: Konpei Island

Smurph wins


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Old Post Dec 6th, 2015 01:21 AM
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Digi
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Congrats to both. Good luck to Smurph in the next round. Boks, Comet's a beast. Nice find there. We all knew his power set, but I don't think I realized the extent of his versatility and power. Drawing that kind of versatility out of obscure picks is a strength of yours; you got my vote in a match in the last tourney when you did the same (Animal Man + Arion, iirc). Tighter plans with less parts prone to interpretation will put you up with anyone in these things. Smurph, not much to say. Nice amalgam. Well-rounded, powerful, and to the point.

Always fun judging these things. Cheers, fellas.


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Old Post Dec 6th, 2015 01:33 AM
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beatboks
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Gender: Male
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congrats smurph. best of luck in the next round.

Had fun

Old Post Dec 7th, 2015 03:36 PM
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