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Whis vs Zoom
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NotAllThatEvil
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
So quick question. Zoom can or can not breathe in space?


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Old Post Dec 3rd, 2015 11:16 PM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I disagree, because of Whis time manip I see it more like 50-50.
Whis being able to manipulate time to some degree is even worse.

If he even catches Zoom, Zoom is going out cold. Not so much if he gets tagged by Zoom. Not to mention how many times he's been hit by people far slower than what we want to pretend Whis is.

In a nutshell, even if you cherry pick Zoom's best feats you'd still have a hard time proving he could even damage Whis, like Carver said. Who's the most durable guy Zoom even knocked out? Damage (who later beat Zoom under the same writer)?

Professor Zoom has a much better shot here, though still not much.

At the end of the day you're putting a guy who's best offensive feat ended with him losing to a blind Wonder Woman vs a guy who casually knocks out a guy capable of destroying a universe, and who races across the universe in minutes and is capable of signing unnoticed in the middle of battle his autograph on the previous 2/3 fastest people we've seen in Dragonball while avoiding every hit. I'm not saying Whis is faster than Zoom, but he's more than fast enough to hit him based on the numerous showings of Zoom getting hit.

You might as well put Galactus in there against Zoom.


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Old Post Dec 3rd, 2015 11:35 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Beerus flew from one Galaxy to another in a minute and 20 seconds.
No he didn't

Old Post Dec 3rd, 2015 11:44 PM
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SquallX
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Whis being able to manipulate time to some degree is even worse.

If he even catches Zoom, Zoom is going out cold. Not so much if he gets tagged by Zoom. Not to mention how many times he's been hit by people far slower than what we want to pretend Whis is.

In a nutshell, even if you cherry pick Zoom's best feats you'd still have a hard time proving he could even damage Whis, like Carver said. Who's the most durable guy Zoom even knocked out? Damage (who later beat Zoom under the same writer)?

Professor Zoom has a much better shot here, though still not much.

At the end of the day you're putting a guy who's best offensive feat ended with him losing to a blind Wonder Woman vs a guy who casually knocks out a guy capable of destroying a universe, and who races across the universe in minutes and is capable of signing unnoticed in the middle of battle his autograph on the previous 2/3 fastest people we've seen in Dragonball while avoiding every hit. I'm not saying Whis is faster than Zoom, but he's more than fast enough to hit him based on the numerous showings of Zoom getting hit.

You might as well put Galactus in there against Zoom.


1. Zoom is also a time manipulator, time has no meaning to him. Zoom is not a soeedster, but he gets his powers by manipulating time.

2. Please, ever heard of pis. A comic book character i always hindered by it. Zoom is no different. That's Flash, a guy that can move at Light Speed can be tagged by the like of his Rogue's.

3. Cherry pick, you're joking right? Zoom took on Wally, after Wally was jacked up not only his own speed, but the speed of Jesse Quick, Bart Allen, and Jay West. Wally and Zoom circle the whole world 12 times, while also traveling and every part of the world, per Wally's own monologue. Guess What? They did that in 1 second.

4. No he doesn't. Professor Zoom whose rival is Barry, can't hold a candle to Wally West, the fastest of all the Flashes.

5. You're funny. Wally West has this move called the Infinite Mach Punch. Diana is a solid power hitter. Diana at her highest level of power would mopped the floor with Whis. Not like Flash hasn't done absurd shit. He has a feat of saving a whole village in the Pico or Femto seconds.

The only saving grace Whis have, is his time powers.

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 12:17 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SquallX
1. Zoom is also a time manipulator, time has no meaning to him. Zoom is not a soeedster, but he gets his powers by manipulating time.

2. Please, ever heard of pis. A comic book character i always hindered by it. Zoom is no different. That's Flash, a guy that can move at Light Speed can be tagged by the like of his Rogue's.

3. Cherry pick, you're joking right? Zoom took on Wally, after Wally was jacked up not only his own speed, but the speed of Jesse Quick, Bart Allen, and Jay West. Wally and Zoom circle the whole world 12 times, while also traveling and every part of the world, per Wally's own monologue. Guess What? They did that in 1 second.

4. No he doesn't. Professor Zoom whose rival is Barry, can't hold a candle to Wally West, the fastest of all the Flashes.

5. You're funny. Wally West has this move called the Infinite Mach Punch. Diana is a solid power hitter. Diana at her highest level of power would mopped the floor with Whis. Not like Flash hasn't done absurd shit. He has a feat of saving a whole village in the Pico or Femto seconds.

The only saving grace Whis have, is his time powers.


Well said.

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 12:27 AM
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NotAllThatEvil
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So i'm just gonna go ahead and assume zoom can't breathe in space. The guy whos job it is to go around blowing up planets blows up thr planet and zoom dies of lsck of oxygen.

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 12:30 AM
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SquallX
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
So i'm just gonna go ahead and assume zoom can't breathe in space. The guy whos job it is to go around blowing up planets blows up thr planet and zoom dies of lsck of oxygen.


I don't think oxygen is a problem for Zoom. Am not 100% sure, give me sometimes to search for an answer. Might take a little time since i don't remember the exact issues Zoom appeared in.

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 12:43 AM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SquallX
1. Zoom is also a time manipulator, time has no meaning to him. Zoom is not a soeedster, but he gets his powers by manipulating time.

2. Please, ever heard of pis. A comic book character i always hindered by it. Zoom is no different. That's Flash, a guy that can move at Light Speed can be tagged by the like of his Rogue's.

3. Cherry pick, you're joking right? Zoom took on Wally, after Wally was jacked up not only his own speed, but the speed of Jesse Quick, Bart Allen, and Jay West. Wally and Zoom circle the whole world 12 times, while also traveling and every part of the world, per Wally's own monologue. Guess What? They did that in 1 second.

4. No he doesn't. Professor Zoom whose rival is Barry, can't hold a candle to Wally West, the fastest of all the Flashes.

5. You're funny. Wally West has this move called the Infinite Mach Punch. Diana is a solid power hitter. Diana at her highest level of power would mopped the floor with Whis. Not like Flash hasn't done absurd shit. He has a feat of saving a whole village in the Pico or Femto seconds.

The only saving grace Whis have, is his time powers.


laughing out loud laughing out loud


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 12:46 AM
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SquallX
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
laughing out loud laughing out loud


What' funny, is that you can't prove me wrong.

Oh don't worry Carver, am still gonna make that New 52 vs DBS thread, just wait a few seconds.

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:05 AM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SquallX
What' funny, is that you can't prove me wrong.

Oh don't worry Carver, am still gonna make that New 52 vs DBS thread, just wait a few seconds.


Prove you wrong? Lol...you said Diana can take Whis or Beerus. Zoom hasn't beaten anyone worth a grain of salt. The hate in you is strong.


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:13 AM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SquallX
1. Zoom is also a time manipulator, time has no meaning to him. Zoom is not a soeedster, but he gets his powers by manipulating time.

2. Please, ever heard of pis. A comic book character i always hindered by it. Zoom is no different. That's Flash, a guy that can move at Light Speed can be tagged by the like of his Rogue's.

3. Cherry pick, you're joking right? Zoom took on Wally, after Wally was jacked up not only his own speed, but the speed of Jesse Quick, Bart Allen, and Jay West. Wally and Zoom circle the whole world 12 times, while also traveling and every part of the world, per Wally's own monologue. Guess What? They did that in 1 second.

4. No he doesn't. Professor Zoom whose rival is Barry, can't hold a candle to Wally West, the fastest of all the Flashes.

5. You're funny. Wally West has this move called the Infinite Mach Punch. Diana is a solid power hitter. Diana at her highest level of power would mopped the floor with Whis. Not like Flash hasn't done absurd shit. He has a feat of saving a whole village in the Pico or Femto seconds.

The only saving grace Whis have, is his time powers.
Zoom only can travel up and down his own timeline. Which means his time powers beside his Flash powers are rather irrelevant considering any application of his powers don't involve Whis besides hitting him.
Any sort of time powers from the opposition can't hurt them but could only theoretically hinder Zoom. Since Zoom is effectively only a time traveler. Though it's really meaningless to get into the specifics.

So what every appearance of Zoom is pis besides his one appearance against amped Wally? What would we even begin to base Zoom being unhittable off of? One arc where he was hit and effectively frozen in time?
Light speed and your world traveling isn't too impressive though when Whis traveled the universe in a very short time. Not saying Whis is faster but when your best Zoom feats are piggy backed off of Flash, it looks sad when the opposition who's supposed to be a snail actually has better speed feats than what you know.

You just did the definition of cherry pick when you questioned it. So yeah.
In that same arc Zoom to my recollection was thwarted by a lightspeed shove by Wally which messed with his whole abortion torture he was doing. I'd go look at the comic to make sure but don't want to. But yes, cherry pick. There are apparently two Zoom appearances according to this forum. One where Flash amped fought him and one where he hits harder than Superman. Sometimes the Power Girl showing too... but we ignore naturally a billion punches doing nothing to Power Girl in the same panel.
When you say every appearance where he gets hit is pis, and then bring up his best speed feat (where his power wasn't impressive) while questioning cherry picking, then you're cherry picking.
But like I said, even cherry picking his best feats you'd be hard pressed to find a feat that even showed Zoom could hurt him. You question this by using an arc where he raced around the planet and hurt a bunch of Flashes? How does that work?
Though I'd go and actually check how close your context is since it sounds questionable but again I don't want to. Every area of the globe sounds suspect though from what I recall of that arc and it doesn't make a difference anyway.

Professor Zoom would though. He actually can hurt high level beings like a Flash. Speed isn't the only equation and Bart is the fastest Flash anyway. Speaking of, remember when Bart treated Zoom like a child when he syringed him? Oh yeah, that feat doesn't exist in the two sometimes three appearances of Zoom that the forum uses.

Yes, hence my point with Professor Zoom. Flash has an infinite mass punch (which is quite frankly lackluster in comparison). Zoom doesn't. Flash has absurd feats. Zoom doesn't. Because his powers aren't the same. Because he has nothing to show he can hit as hard as Flash can at higher levels. You show me Zoom knocked out even a Colossus level being and I'll be impressed. He has "speed feats" but that's where it ends. He could be the fastest character ever but he still can't put momentum behind that like Flash can.

And lol at Wonder Woman beating Whis. And the thing is at the end of it, Diana simply was not at her highest level of power against Zoom anyway. She was completely hindered and still won. Still stayed awake through it all. Still couldn't see. And this is what we use to say Zoom can beat a guy who casually karate chopped out someone who was about to destroy the universe.

Even with the lowballing of Beerus vs Goku destroying the universe in 3 hits, they were still shaking the planet as an absolute low perspective of the feat from far away. Did Flash do so when he landed an Infinite Mass Punch?
Beerus casually finger tapped half a planet. You realize that that roughly amounts to the same thing WBH did (split planet destruction with a shockwave).
And Goku with more training from the Beerus fight and Vegeta who was slightly above Goku got their full force punches completely stopped by a thumb and a pinky from Whis on the same hand. Which at the absolute least means he's strong enough to casually stop two planet destroyers with 2 digits. Though power scaling puts that far beyond that of course. smile

Simply put in the short time Super has aired, some characters (Beerus) simply has better strength showings than Wonder Woman by far and with ease. Even in the basic first movie he destroyed like 9 planets in a second or so and got dropped by Whis. There's really no comparison. Though you don't want to admit it, you're dealing with universe busters without the glass canon of comic characters (low durability, etc) vs planetary scope characters. Which wouldn't be so much of an issue if those universe busters didn't only train to heighten everything to cover any sort of possible weakness. They aren't slow, weak, made of glass, don't lack fighting skills, don't lack long range, etc. There is nothing for a purely physical character to exploit here like what exists in comics (Molecule Man getting knocked out by Cap for example).
You'd need esoteric means to put your characters over and when the debate only stretches to trying to limit raw power, that isn't going to work when others can see the desperation. Both Wonder Woman and Zoom would get one shotted.


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:14 AM
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NotAllThatEvil
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Oxygen, does he need it?

Last edited by NotAllThatEvil on Dec 4th, 2015 at 01:19 AM

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:14 AM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Zoom only can travel up and down his own timeline. Which means his time powers beside his Flash powers are rather irrelevant considering any application of his powers don't involve Whis besides hitting him.
Any sort of time powers from the opposition can't hurt them but could only theoretically hinder Zoom. Since Zoom is effectively only a time traveler. Though it's really meaningless to get into the specifics.

So what every appearance of Zoom is pis besides his one appearance against amped Wally? What would we even begin to base Zoom being unhittable off of? One arc where he was hit and effectively frozen in time?
Light speed and your world traveling isn't too impressive though when Whis traveled the universe in a very short time. Not saying Whis is faster but when your best Zoom feats are piggy backed off of Flash, it looks sad when the opposition who's supposed to be a snail actually has better speed feats than what you know.

You just did the definition of cherry pick when you questioned it. So yeah.
In that same arc Zoom to my recollection was thwarted by a lightspeed shove by Wally which messed with his whole abortion torture he was doing. I'd go look at the comic to make sure but don't want to. But yes, cherry pick. There are apparently two Zoom appearances according to this forum. One where Flash amped fought him and one where he hits harder than Superman. Sometimes the Power Girl showing too... but we ignore naturally a billion punches doing nothing to Power Girl in the same panel.
When you say every appearance where he gets hit is pis, and then bring up his best speed feat (where his power wasn't impressive) while questioning cherry picking, then you're cherry picking.
But like I said, even cherry picking his best feats you'd be hard pressed to find a feat that even showed Zoom could hurt him. You question this by using an arc where he raced around the planet and hurt a bunch of Flashes? How does that work?
Though I'd go and actually check how close your context is since it sounds questionable but again I don't want to. Every area of the globe sounds suspect though from what I recall of that arc and it doesn't make a difference anyway.

Professor Zoom would though. He actually can hurt high level beings like a Flash. Speed isn't the only equation and Bart is the fastest Flash anyway. Speaking of, remember when Bart treated Zoom like a child when he syringed him? Oh yeah, that feat doesn't exist in the two sometimes three appearances of Zoom that the forum uses.

Yes, hence my point with Professor Zoom. Flash has an infinite mass punch (which is quite frankly lackluster in comparison). Zoom doesn't. Flash has absurd feats. Zoom doesn't. Because his powers aren't the same. Because he has nothing to show he can hit as hard as Flash can at higher levels. You show me Zoom knocked out even a Colossus level being and I'll be impressed. He has "speed feats" but that's where it ends. He could be the fastest character ever but he still can't put momentum behind that like Flash can.

And lol at Wonder Woman beating Whis. And the thing is at the end of it, Diana simply was not at her highest level of power against Zoom anyway. She was completely hindered and still won. Still stayed awake through it all. Still couldn't see. And this is what we use to say Zoom can beat a guy who casually karate chopped out someone who was about to destroy the universe.

Even with the lowballing of Beerus vs Goku destroying the universe in 3 hits, they were still shaking the planet as an absolute low perspective of the feat from far away. Did Flash do so when he landed an Infinite Mass Punch?
Beerus casually finger tapped half a planet. You realize that that roughly amounts to the same thing WBH did (split planet destruction with a shockwave).
And Goku with more training from the Beerus fight and Vegeta who was slightly above Goku got their full force punches completely stopped by a thumb and a pinky from Whis on the same hand. Which at the absolute least means he's strong enough to casually stop two planet destroyers with 2 digits. Though power scaling puts that far beyond that of course. smile

Simply put in the short time Super has aired, some characters (Beerus) simply has better strength showings than Wonder Woman by far and with ease. Even in the basic first movie he destroyed like 9 planets in a second or so and got dropped by Whis. There's really no comparison. Though you don't want to admit it, you're dealing with universe busters without the glass canon of comic characters (low durability, etc) vs planetary scope characters. Which wouldn't be so much of an issue if those universe busters didn't only train to heighten everything to cover any sort of possible weakness. They aren't slow, weak, made of glass, don't lack fighting skills, don't lack long range, etc. There is nothing for a purely physical character to exploit here like what exists in comics (Molecule Man getting knocked out by Cap for example).
You'd need esoteric means to put your characters over and when the debate only stretches to trying to limit raw power, that isn't going to work when others can see the desperation. Both Wonder Woman and Zoom would get one shotted.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
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Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:17 AM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Nothing I said was wrong. thumb up


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:18 AM
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Can zoom hurt universal beings?

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:29 AM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Decter
Can zoom hurt universal beings?
He made cameo appearance Superman make a face with an entire panel dedicated to show after image Zoom punching him a bunch in a sort of surprise attack... then he got tagged by Hal... and failed to ko Batman though that's understandable.
He hurt a blind Wonder Woman though while punching her around countries. Lost that fight. He may or may not have knocked out an Amazon in 2 hundred punches in that fight too.
Knocked out Damage and knocked out Jay while punching him to another state.

I think those are his best offensive feats. Naturally he can if we judge based off this


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:40 AM
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NotAllThatEvil
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I have another question. How does zoom move in a vacum? Can he just speed force is way around or does he still need traction?

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:43 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I have another question. How does zoom move in a vacum? Can he just speed force is way around or does he still need traction?
He blinks in and out of time at lightspeed. If we follow that he shouldn't even be able to go into space.

However a lot of shit Zoom does doesn't make any sense following the way his powers work. Like running up walls for example. Or even hitting somewhat hard. You'd think a lot of his movements just wouldn't show up as well in the right time he wants it to...

But no he doesn't have the speed force. His powers seem like Flashes' but he apparently doesn't have super speed. I think he's been shown nigh air flying with his running too.


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:51 AM
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So even if he can breathe in space, he would be a sitting duck that whis can lazer to death at his convienence? Whats stopping him from blowing up the planrt. That seems like a win/win right there.

Old Post Dec 4th, 2015 01:55 AM
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How the hell is he even hurting Whis much less hit him? The guy can day dream about flowers and cake while fighting two SSG's at the same time.


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