Okay, so quote some Quran that supports this, because that would be great to help calm down the middle east. Somehow I doubt it exists in the Quran, but this does exist in the Quran...
(The words of the Quran quoted in Red for the blood of infidels it intends to spill; praise be to Allah). "Inveterate enemies." That doesn't sound like it's preaching peace to me. You can do all sorts of verbal gymnastics to justify it, but the meaning is clear and it's not peace with non-believers.
I really am astonished that people can defend this religious bullshit and not admit to themselves and others that we (as humans) would be far better off without it. It's astonishing.
I'm not saying that, I'm merely saying he was a warlord.
What do you mean when you say they "taught the jewish clans a lesson" ?
I will grant you that we don't truly know the age.
What about the Jewish man tortured with fire? What about the poets who he killed? Oh and speaking of the battle you just mentioned, let us look at the insanity of that from wiki:
"According to Ibn Hisham, a dispute broke out between the Muslims and the Banu Qaynuqa (the allies of the Khazraj tribe) soon afterwards when a Muslim woman visited a jeweler's shop in the Qaynuqa marketplace, she was pestered to uncover her face. The goldsmith, a Jew, pinned her clothing such, that upon getting up, she was stripped naked. A Muslim man coming upon the resulting commotion killed the shopkeeper in retaliation. The Jews in turn killed the Muslim man. This escalated to a chain of revenge killings, and enmity grew between Muslims and the Banu Qaynuqa"
Okay so we start off with a tiny bit of a crazy, then it suddenly gets ramped up to 11 when a Muslim man comes along and sees this shopkeeper with her clothes torn off and just flips out and murders the Jewish guy who did it.
Everybody in that scenario in batshit insane.
You don't need to be an expert to see these things IMO.
It more or less sounds like you are saying it's okay to give her a little slap as a warning.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
I think desperately sad people will try to spin what is shown. There is always an excuse. Look at the excuses for why it's okay to slap a chick. That came from someone defending this horrid religion lol. The defense is essentially "well hell, they try to put up with her behavior before slapping her and it's a last resort, but sometime she just gots to be slapped".
I'd love to see someone spin this line:
"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing"
Oh and...
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. "
Not batshit insane at all. Respect this religion. Why should you respect it? I don't even know: astronauts and banana's? Any gibberish will make sense as to why. Carpets in San Diego love the Mets. That is why you should respect it.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on May 28th, 2017 at 12:31 AM
Quran is a comprehensive read with its different surahs addressing different situations and contexts of life. It is really stupid to pick and choose among its quotes for point-scoring like you and Surtur are doing.
I have clearly pointed out to you that Islam encourages self-defense against forces that seek to eliminate Muslims be they conspiring Christians and Jews.
They crucified Jesus Christ. Do you think they wouldn't have crucified Muslims?
So wait...you say you pointed out it encourages self defense against forces that seek to eliminate them. But before that you talk about picking and choosing stuff.
So how is that not you picking and choose stuff as well? Since you talk about it encouraging self defense. Let me ask: does it ever at any point encourage anything else? Anything that would be seen as bad?
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
"Picking and choosing" is exactly what denominations do in various religions. That's a religious thing. Saying we are guilty of it is completely beside the point.
Ok, a few of those are good. 1-4 seem legit (if they are indeed true). But 5 doesn't include a verse to support it and 6 and 7 don't sound particularly relevant to advocating peace, since "doing good" is an extremely vague idea, especially in religious terms.
So that's like 4 or 4 1/2 verses (lol) to the hundred or so violent and awful-as-shit verses. Not a good ratio. And not to mention the treatment of women, gays, and apostates. But regardless, yes, those are the verses that moderates need to emphasize and be empowered by. It's up to Muslims to rise up and fix their religion, for sure.
Also when it comes to picking and choosing, the extremists choose to follow some of the horrible stuff in their religious texts. If there are positive peaceful parts of their holy texts they seem to be ignoring them, which is the problem.
Also yeah, this is about Islam. I have said I don't like all religions, but I can acknowledge some are worse than others. I wouldn't be afraid to be around a Jainist extremist, for example. Not all Muslims are bad because not all follow the religion very strictly. But if you choose to actually follow it all...yeah, bad shit follows that.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
To understand a religion, one needs to study it in full and try to make sense of all of it. Majority of Muslims are peaceful because that is what they came to understand after years of education and deliberations on Islamic matters.
Quran is written in the format of surah; different surah in it address different issues that Prophet Muhammad (and his followers) had to contend with during the course of their lives. An individual verse will not explain you the big picture.
Quran was not written in a single day, revelations came from time-to-time to guide Prophet Muhammad (and his followers) on how to respond to actions of their enemies, cope with different situations and introduce reforms.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 29th, 2017 at 01:36 PM
I am simply responding to queries of members here.
I am not picking and choosing among verses in the manner that I will consider some verses that suit me and discard the rest.
My point is that Islam is a much more complex subject than a few verses that are encouraging self-defense and whose message is often blown out of proportion in media and in discussions where people discussing them have very limited knowledge of the subject in question.
I don't recall Islam encouraging BAD. However, Islamic notions of morality and do's and dont's for men and women are not 100% identical to Western norms. Still, one can find common ground in some areas. For example, Islam won't say Democracy is bad or unislamic because people have the right to choose their leader. However, Islam will encourage people to choose the best individual among candidates.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 29th, 2017 at 02:03 PM
You don't understand that book. You cannot, by selectively reading it.
To understand Quran, you need to:
1. Consider a good translator (Sahih International is a good one).
2. Understand composition of Quran.
3. Determine when a surah was unveiled and it corresponds to which event or development of the time.
It is a full-time scholarly work.
The stuff that you consider horrible mostly corresponds to people who could not be reasoned with and wanted to kill Muslims. Quran doesn't encourage aggression against those who are peaceful. The seven verses I shared with you represent the crux of Islam. Rest is context-constrained.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 4th, 2017 at 07:21 PM
To fully understand the context of the historical situations, sure, it would take a lifetime of study. But that's not an argument for Islam to be a legitimate set of beliefs for millions of people to pattern their lives around. I suspect that many Muslims don't study much of the context and make it a "scholarly" exercise and there is certainly plenty of room for violent interpretations.
It doesn't say a whole lot to discourage it, though, and says a lot about taking out infidels, not specifying whether they are peaceful or not.
Okay, great, it's easy to say that, but it's much harder to demonstrate. You haven't convinced me. And again I'll mention the horrible, violent verses GREATLY outnumber the vague, ambiguous, and easily twisted peaceful ones. the problem is many millions of people don't seem to take it in context, and clearly the supposed "religion of peace" doesn't seem to stress peace very much.
And don't forget about dogmas against apostasy and violence and subjugation against women in the Quran. These are ideals not conducive to civil and peaceful society. So again I ask: why defend this ideology?
Your suspicion is surprisingly correct. I can attest to it based on my personal experiences and what I have observed.
Every Muslim should invest time in learning Islam in its true spirit but this is not possible if one does not bothers to understand Quran in a proper way, its composition and the contexts behind its Surah. However, this is time-consuming effort and many tend to consult the literature body of Hadith for quick references and guidance in practice. However, understanding Quran is important for self-awareness and to establish consensus in matters pertaining to the religion in question.
Selective reading is the root cause of all problems and creates room for violent interpretations as you put.
Quran is not about statistics. Every verse carry weight but its context should be understood. As I pointed out earlier, selective reading is a problem. If one is to consider selective reading, why bother to compile all of it into a single coherent form of literature?
If you are reading a book, you should read it in full to understand what it is all about. Only than you will be in the position to correctly evaluate it.
A large number of versus in Quran are merely descriptions of behavior of people and warnings to disbelievers to mend their ways or they will pay the price during an event known as "Day of Judgement." Such warnings extend to apostates as well. However, Quran does not authorize Muslims to take action against apostates unless they engage in politics against Islam. Once again, a conditional matter.
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