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Intelligent design
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Van Hohenheim
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Intelligent design

Does anybody care to show me how this argument looks like? Any Christian's here?

Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 06:29 AM
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riv6672
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God doesnt play dice with the universe.
A pretty smart guy made that observation.
Good enough for me.


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 06:39 AM
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Van Hohenheim
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So you believe in this argument?
Or rather you think this argument is true because a smart guy came up with it?

Last edited by Van Hohenheim on Feb 10th, 2016 at 06:45 AM

Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 06:43 AM
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Mindship
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ID POV, in essence:

- The universe has countless physical attributes, that all fit together neatly and precisely, to produce planets, life and people.
- The odds of all this working out so well by chance are vastly beyond human comprehension. Thus, the universe had to be intelligently designed.

So...

- If ours is the only universe, then ID apparently has merit.
- If there is an infinitude of universes (eg, chaotic inflation), then ID doesn't have merit, because given infinite chances, sooner/later a universe like ours would pop up.


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 12:09 PM
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Surtur
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Your logic makes no sense. So because humans can't comprehend the odds of something it must mean the universe was designed intelligently?

Or maybe we just can't comprehend the fact nothing created this?


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 03:29 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Your logic makes no sense. So because humans can't comprehend the odds of something it must mean the universe was designed intelligently?
Not my logic, but this is the argument (afaik). Personally, I'm waiting for the LHC to find one of those compactified dimensons, or for cosmologists to determine what those 'bruise' patterns in the cosmic microwave background mean.

As I understand it, there are currently quite a few theoretical models for a multiverse/parallel realities:

http://physics.about.com/od/astrono...iverseTypes.htm


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 03:50 PM
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Surtur
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I understand. Also it needs to be said that while a lot of things in nature do fit well, the circumstances needed for intelligent life to come about are incredibly rare.


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 04:45 PM
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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 05:05 PM
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Surtur
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I think you're racist against puddles.


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 05:15 PM
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Robtard
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I'm not a Christian and Mindship answered your rather question well, but as a mild believer of ID or something akin to ID, I do think it's more likely that there is a greater power and method to the universe than it just being absolutely random chance(s). In the end I ultimately don't know, it's just what I choose to believe as it makes more sense to me.

Narrowing it down to something smaller like 'creation vs evolution', I believe in evolution as the creation story to me is fairy-tale nonsense. But I also wonder if the mechanisms for evolution didn't have someone/thing/power behind it as opposed to more random chance(s).


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 05:28 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not a Christian and Mindship answered your rather question well, but as a mild believer of ID or something akin to ID, I do think it's more likely that there is a greater power and method to the universe than it just being absolutely random chance(s).
For reasons I've posted many times elsewhere (eg, nature of proof), neither am I convinced that physical reality is all there is. But ID is not the answer, IMHO. It is the physical version of an ontological argument, and I find those lacking as well.


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 06:37 PM
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Robtard
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For sure, as I said, in the end I ultimately don't know, just the concept of there being some greater power as opposed to just all randomness makes more sense to me.

The watch argument or even the eye argument are silly to me. Even if evolution were proven to be false, that in of itself does not prove God/ID to be true on that merit alone. Also find the God-of-The-Gaps argument to be faulty.


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2016 06:49 PM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
As I understand it, there are currently quite a few theoretical models for a multiverse/parallel realities:

No. There are no theoretical models for a multiverse.

When you have Brian Greene and other popular science writers talking about the multiverse, they're not talking about a requirement for any theoretic model. They're talking about non-scientific interpretations you can make from the various concepts that are introduced in those models.

Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 01:56 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by riv6672
God doesnt play dice with the universe.
A pretty smart guy made that observation.
Good enough for me.
Terrible haiku.


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Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 03:05 AM
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Van Hohenheim
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not a Christian and Mindship answered your rather question well, but as a mild believer of ID or something akin to ID, I do think it's more likely that there is a greater power and method to the universe than it just being absolutely random chance(s). In the end I ultimately don't know, it's just what I choose to believe as it makes more sense to me.

Narrowing it down to something smaller like 'creation vs evolution', I believe in evolution as the creation story to me is fairy-tale nonsense. But I also wonder if the mechanisms for evolution didn't have someone/thing/power behind it as opposed to more random chance(s).

You state your belief but don't state why. Why do you think think it had an intelligent design? What leads you to think this?

Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 06:19 AM
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Van Hohenheim
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
No. There are no theoretical models for a multiverse.

When you have Brian Greene and other popular science writers talking about the multiverse, they're not talking about a requirement for any theoretic model. They're talking about non-scientific interpretations you can make from the various concepts that are introduced in those models.

Those damn string theorists give scientists a bad image.

Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 06:24 AM
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S_W_LeGenD
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Big Bang theory gives the impression of an intelligent design in the works.

Big Bang process is apparently continuous and leading to creation of new and more advanced/complex stuff with passage of time in the Universe at large.

Have a look:

http://meta-gaia.angelfire.com/big_bang_nageo.jpg

http://www.cosmosup.com/wp-content/.../12/BigBang.jpg

http://www.khabdha.org/wp-content/u...2/big_bang1.jpg

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Feb 11th, 2016 at 07:36 AM

Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 07:30 AM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
No. There are no theoretical models for a multiverse.

When you have Brian Greene and other popular science writers talking about the multiverse, they're not talking about a requirement for any theoretic model. They're talking about non-scientific interpretations you can make from the various concepts that are introduced in those models.
Close enough. wink. They still suggest a far more viable path of investigation than empirically searching for an immaterial superconsciousness.


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Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 11:07 AM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
You state your belief but don't state why.

Why do you think think it had an intelligent design? What leads you to think this?


I did actually, here it is again: "In the end I ultimately don't know, it's just what I choose to believe as it makes more sense to me."

I'm not an ID proponent in the sense of the actual ID theory, though I don't think we can call ID a theory.


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Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 05:41 PM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Van Hohenheim
Those damn string theorists give scientists a bad image.

The many-worlds interpretation isn't part of string theory.

The main argument for the multiverse—without getting too technical—relates to the Calabi-Yau space through which the extra dimensions in m-theory are conjectured to be compactified. The problem with the moduli spaces of the Calabi-Yau space are solved with the superpotentials generated by two flux vacua leaving holes that correspond to a number different vacuums each of which is supposed to be a universe.

Once again, it's a very specific—and I'd argue: wishful—interpretation of a solution to a problem in a model that does not allow for predictions.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
Close enough. wink. They still suggest a far more viable path of investigation than empirically searching for an immaterial superconsciousness.

Not really.

Old Post Feb 11th, 2016 10:45 PM
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