Here is a bit that I give to theists on free will.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.
As an aside.
Christians do not seem to care much about morality. They follow a genocidal son murderer and only have eyes for the prise of heaven and will follow such a vile satanic demiurge.
-Demands you worship him
-Demands you never worship anything else
-Demands you can never say his name in vain like he's Lord frickin Voldemort
Does this sound like someone who wants people with 100% free will serving him?
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
1 and 2. Going by the theological 101 the most perfect being is indeed worthy of worship, per definition. No other being is worthy, but the perfect being is. Be mindful that being perfect being includes perfect love, perfect justice etc.
3. Jesus > Voldemort
Free will means you can freely choose not to do that. Which is rather obvious when looking at the number of people who don't.
Look at what happened to Job, that isn't perfect love.
There is also a difference between being worthy of worship and demanding it. A true just and loving God would of said "feel free to believe in whatever you want, these things are not wrong".
Also it is free will but it isn't. We are not forced into worship. However it is demanded and we are told breaking the commandments is a sin.
True no strings attached free will..God wouldn't of ever told us who to worship or not worship. It would of never been mentioned at all.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Jul 26th, 2016 at 07:48 PM
In short, the mistake people make is that they believe "no strings attached free will" is a thing.
Not really, even in the very real day-to-day life, it is clear there is no freedom without responsibility. Yep, freedom entails responsibility. *
You are free to put your hand into the fire metaphorically speaking (say break some commandments) but will it be a good thing? Sin is the degradation of good in a human being. You are free to pursue it but in the long run it will degrade you. You are also free to follow God.
Also, I'm sorry but this is what philosophy/theology/logic says. The most perfect being is the one worthy of worship, therefore Him saying "worship me" is perfectly fine and logical.
To make this reply shorter, in a nutshell, God's justice is perfect even though it does not always appear to us so. Given that God is magnitudes greater than any human intellect this is quite logical.
EDIT: * I know you agree on that, a least in principle, given that some groups like 3rd Wave Feminists or BLM have a twisted view of freedom without real responsibility for their actions.
Last edited by Stigma on Jul 26th, 2016 at 08:07 PM
Freedom entails responsibility, but only to an extent. I technically have the freedom to murder someone, but it doesn't mean I'd be free of consequences.
However we aren't talking about an act like murder or theft or anything like that, but a belief. We should be free to believe whatever we want and on top of that we should be free to believe whatever we want without being told "worship whoever you want, but btw the only right person to worship is me". IMO a truly perfect being would be so utterly perfect they recognize this and thus refrain from doing it.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Um? You actually confrm freedom entails consequences everytime. Which is my stance all along.
Not at all.
If the premise thta God exists is true than indeed worshipping whatever ypu want or believing whatever you want is the expresion of freedom without responsibility e.g. moral relativism.
Taking it to the extreme: believing suicide bombings are ok is just a matter of belief. Still, it is evil.
By constrast, believing "love your enemies" is also a matter of belief, but good.
Morover, beliefs always influece actions to a degree.
How do you mean?
Being perfect does not equal saying "do whatever you want" as some of the choices will be bad/evil/stupid etc., as per definition.
I never said they could be told they could do whatever they wanted. Rather that they were free to worship whoever they wanted.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
God's first ruling as judge was to ask for a bribe or sacrifice to change his usual justice, which was like man's, as above so below, of punishing the guilty and not the innocent, to punishing an innocent Jesus instead of the guilty.
How in hell is that perfect justice?
Is punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perfect justice to you.
As Ingersoll said; 'no man would be fit for heaven who would consent that an innocent person should suffer for his sin.'
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Jun 10th, 2016 10:05 PM
Thanks Scribble!
