I haven't cited the example of Vitiate managing to warp the minds of Revan and Malak in that sense. I cited this example in the context of both being battle-hardened and strong-willed individuals at the time. Revan being the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at this point is a trump card that I utilize against claims that raw power makes much difference in this regard (just like yours). Moreover, being more powerful is not just about raw power.
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Vitiate cannot be trusted! The crux of KoTFE story arc.
My point was intended to address this part of your statement:
"the magnitude of the specific degree of TP Vitiate uses on Scourge can't be more effective because it doesn't actually dominate him so the method clearly doesn't work, etc.)" (Ellimist)
- WTF you were trying to convey with this statement? You were jumping to premature conclusions (which is a norm in your case). Vitiate gave Lord Scourge a glimpse of his true-self in a split-second moment as a warning that his betrayal will not go unpunished. Vitiate was not interested in breaking Lord Scourge and neither does this imply that this tactic was not useful for breaking a target.
You should make more effort in improving your arguments instead of insulting me.
Now coming towards Lord Nyax not trying to scare Luke Skywalker part:
Then it answered-not in words, but in images. Luke saw the power of its will, expressed through the Force, rolling over the remaining people of Coruscant like water roaring down a canyon through a burst dam. He saw them sweeping across Coruscant, killing and eating everything in their way-the Yuuzhan Vong, the disobedient, the Force-blind. He saw the workers here boarding the machine beneath their feet, crashing it through kilometers of buildings until they came to some place, a source for more power to fuel this glorious, deliriously happy destructive impulse.
In that instant, Luke joined in the plan. He longed to slaughter the outsiders, those who did not understand or join. He longed to taste their flesh,
Taken from Enemy Lines: Rebel Stand
The red part represents scary images, you idiot. Lord Nyax's strategy is same as that of Vitiate but his intent was to motivate Luke to join him and embrace the madness.
The above is similar to what Vitiate did to Lord Scourge but Vitiate was not interested in reducing Lord Scourge to his pwn and therefore withdrew his assault in split-second moment. Vitiate's intent was to warn Lord Scourge of serious consequences for his betrayal. There are however examples of Vitiate causing some Jedi to descend to madness and even destroying there minds. The strategy might be same but the intent behind it is important and determines the outcome.
As for giving someone the desire to join him, Vitiate is a step above this as apparent from:
"He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed." (Revan)
See above
Not going to entertain this nonsense but I will say one thing:
The magnitude of stupidity and ignorance you have demonstrated in this debate is astounding and you need to look yourself in the mirror.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 6th, 2016 at 05:21 AM
Without a nexus, I don't see Vitiate stomping anybody here. If he's up against Caedus and Vader fights Arcann, then team one wins. If Vitiate attacks Vader while Arcann fights Caedus, team 2 has a chance.
What the hell are you talking about? Nyax didn't horrify Luke - he tried to give him the desire to join, and you took this to mean that his telepathy is analogous to Vitiate's. UnuThul also gave people the desire to join - .ie his is similar to Vitiate's by the same logic that you claim Nyax's is. UnuThul's telepathy being unrefined hardly changes anything - Nyax's is too.
If you think UnuThul's telepathy translates to Vitiate's, Nyax's must too, and so Caedus can resist Vitiate for the same reason Revan, Scourge, Meetra and the Hero can.
This is thoroughly irrelevant to what you were responding to - you were using Scourge's original dream of Vitiate breaking his mind as proof that Vitiate could TP him outright, when it actually just means that he could TP him after he he had already beaten him. It doesn't mean he could overwhelm his mind outright. You still have not demonstrated any examples of an unamped Vitiate dominating a mind comparable to Caedus's or Vader's. At this point, your entire argument hinges on claiming that because a weaker and younger Jacen couldn't outright resist UnuThul, he obviously couldn't resist novel Vitiate, by circularly arguing that Vitiate's TP > UnuThul's because he's had more opportunities to dominate non-Force sensitive populations, and some Jedi clearly far weaker than Jacen. In other words, you have absolutely nothing.
Funny; in another thread you tried to dismiss Taalon's TK'ing of Luke by pointing to injuries Luke had sustained. Now I assume you concede your prior position.
Anyway, you're once again contradicting yourself; your entire case here is predicated on assuming that your ability to resist Force telepathy has nothing to do with your raw power (despite Luke stating in the RotJ novelization that anything generated by the Force can be resisted by the Force). If that's the case, then that Scourge hadn't lost raw power by getting injured wouldn't matter; being injured and lying on the ground would make it much harder to focus, and that is what matters, according to you.
And even if that weren't true, you'd still have no argument; you still haven't provided any actual reasoning as to why you think Vitiate can break their telepathic defenses beyond lazily trying to scale his telepathy with UnuThul's. UnuThul was never in a situation where he had to dominate planets [with prep, a nexus, and 3 centuries of power growth], but he has dominated a lot more impressive Jedi/Sith than Scourge and pre-KotOR Revan. You still have nothing.
They're exceptions because they're exceptionally gifted in the Force, just like Caedus and Vader are. You, once again, have done nothing to suggest that Vitiate can break Force users of their caliber.
You're missing the point - you claim that Vitiate's telepathy can't be resisted by Vader because he hasn't experienced anything like it before, but he has. That he couldn't the first time against Palpatine means nothing.
Palpatine's telepathy is dissimilar from Vitiate's, while incredibly dissimilar telepathy from Nyax and UnuThul are? Seriously?
"not easy" is a meaningless quantifier, as I've explained before and you'll probably never understand. OT Palpatine could dominate a planet of billions; does this mean he could dominate Vitiate?
Now, I want you to actually justify your assertion that telepathic defense has nothing to do with raw power, when it a) just happens to be that the ones with the best TP defense feats are really powerful Force users and b) every single other Force defense correlates to raw power. And if you can somehow substantiate this, I want you to present a cogent case for why Vitiate can dominate the team here, when he's never dominated anyone beyond a conflicted pre-KotOR Revan. Please, please answer this.
No, because he couldn't dominate him for the purposes of winning a confrontation.
I love how you just vaguely call prep and nexus jabs "misleading and disingenuous" without explaining how a nexus that explicitly strengthens his power in the dark side...wouldn't strengthen his ability to use the dark side.
I still see no actual arguments for you to justify your notion that Vitiate can dominate Vader and Caedus's minds. He's never dominated anyone of their caliber,
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Seriously? You think dominating Revan translates to dominating Caedus because Revan is "battle hardened" and "strong willed"? When Caedus was f*cking tortured by the Yuuzhan Vong?
Revan at that point had beaten a bunch of Mandos. Caedus had f*cking dealt with a Force-immune extra-galactic invasion force when he was a teenager. Oh, and he fooled Luke Skywalker multiple times with his illusions. The notion that he can be compared to pre-KOTOR Revan and Malak is ridiculous.
Except he clearly can here, because otherwise he'd have just mind controlled him.
*facepalm* You were making the argument that how horrific a telepathic attack is portrayed establishes how effective it is. This "split-second moment" is still more horrific than UnuThul's, so by your logic it ALONE should have been enough. The fact that Vitiate was holding back is irrelevant - your argument is predicated on taking the description of the event as an indicator of its power unto itself, so Vitiate's holding-back TP should still be > UnuThul's by your metric, and his full-power one should just be more effective. But this is clearly wrong, so your metric is bullshit.
BTW, it also contradicts your previous claim that Nyax's TP was different from Vitiate's because it tries to give people the desire and eagerness to join, .ie you can't belittle it for not being horrific because it isn't trying to be.
That's like saying Palpatine is a sh*tty manipulator in the PT compared to a mafia crime lord because you don't see him intimidating the Jedi. He wasn't trying to, he was using another strategy. Duh.
You literally don't understand elementary logical statements. Your argument was "if more horrific then more effective". This if-then fails given your very example, that Scourge wasn't broken by it. That Vitiate was holding back has nothing to do with the failure of your conditional.
Dude, the passage describes Luke LONGING to join in on the slaughter, not being horrified by it. Jesus f*cking Christ.
No, the strategy isn't the same. Vitiate's strategy is breaking people; Nyax's is tempting people. You've not established any link between the two.
What? He's better at it because he can dominate pre-KotOR Revan? What feats does pre-KotOR Revan have again?
Once again, we get back to ground zero; you can't establish that Vitiate can overpower Caedus or Vader when his more powerful incarnation can't overpower the Outlander. You just keep asserting this over and over again.
No, I don't need to see above. Above doesn't provide any actual justifications for your assertion that raw power doesn't correlate to telepathic defense when every other Force ability does.
Nah, there's a reason why nobody here takes you seriously (except for Neph, and nobody takes him seriously either).
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__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Caedus isn’t one tat likes playing around when he fights most of the time. I’d hes in character then he should blitz vitiate while Vader rag dolls arcann.
May 6th, 2016 05:09 AM
Dude, the passage describes Luke LONGING to join in on the slaughter, not being horrified by it. Jesus f*cking Christ.
