She was a Darth, dude. Why would it be not be impressive to disarm her with bare hands? This is clearly a Darth Malgus level strength feat.
BioWare promotes Hero of Tython as the Outlander at official level. Hero of Tython is arguably the most skilled duelist (among the Jedi) of his era. And Arcann was able to match Hero's dueling skills, even impale him (if you refuse Valkorion's assistance).
Arcann have prodigious defensive abilities. I doubt that Count Dooku can affect him much with his Force abilities.
Even if you choose Sith Warrior or Barsen'thor as the Outlander, Arcann manages to overwhelm you in the battle.
I disregard Darth Nox from a comparison because he is not depicted drawing on the power of Force ghosts since the original story. BioWare is not paying much attention to this story element unfortunately or Darth Nox freed the Force ghosts he had bind to himself to defeat Darth Thanaton.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Apr 30th, 2016 at 05:46 AM
Why do you believe that? Also even if that was the case Savage's feats in an enraged state are as I said not equivalent to his feats at his standard level and so the comparison between the two at their base levels is not an accurate scale to use for Dooku and Arcann.
Plenty of people were Darth's friend. It doesn't mean they were any type of impressive. Because when someone is gripping your wrists hard you're going to instinctively release your own grip to allow your wrists more circulation? How is squeezing somebody's wrist hard enough to make them let go of their lightsaber as impressive as shattering marble flooring or a stone pillar with the excess kinetic force used from physically launching someone with your strength alone?
"BioWare promotes Hero of Tython as the Outlander at official level."
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?
Because of his accolade of being a battlemaster? Like Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow were?
I don't disagree with you here.
We're assuming HoT as that's the most skilled/powerful incarnation of the protagonist correct?
Fair enough.
Last edited by Syndicate on Apr 30th, 2016 at 05:57 AM
Yoda's never been an immense powerhouse of strength. He could be, but that's not his style. He humiliated Dooku due to speed and skill, which was sufficient.
The fact he was capable of making Dooku's lightsaber immovable is proof that it was within his abilities as well to pose a clear threat to him via physical strength.
With Grievous, novice Jedi have defended against him in the past. The argument doesn't really stand, despite Grievous' rare displays of ridiculous strength.
And then you concede that two individuals noted to actually use strength to turn the tide of battle exploited Dooku's weakness. I'm glad you see the point.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
He's matched Sidious. If he was capable of disarming Dooku with his strength he would have to have ended the war before it started. In regards to speed I'd agree with you though I find technical skill to be more debatable.
Apparently it wasn't the most viable combat option against Dooku otherwise he would have employed a more strength based attack.
Grievous was simply adjusting to his bodies capabilities. It'd certainly be an interesting transition to go from 2 arms to 4 and learning how to adjust and control your strikes to apply just the right amount of kinetic force to maximize speed and efficiency. That's my belief anyways as it's one of the only logical explanations if we're taking Legends and canon together.
I concede that a focused Anakin and an enraged Anakin provided a threat to Dooku via strength alone and that Dooku when unprepared for Savage's combative skill and precision in conjunction with his brute strength was able to disarm him, yes.
Except Yoda's style is focused speed and agility, not strength, hence why he utilized the former and not the latter. Stop trying to argue things obviously not true.
I don't care for your theories on Grievous. Foul Moudama was capable of handling his attacks with one arm while handling Palpatine with the other right before the third film.
Good.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
I agree his style was based around speed and agility. Yoda obviously viewed it as more beneficial to employ his speed advantage against Dooku then his strength advantage. What do you mean arguing things that aren't true?
Well then we have to accept that those Jedi were simply physically strong enough to do so if you don't want to use logical deduction. Given Moudama's build it's actually not that surprising.
Yep. Alright Ant going to bed but I'm excited to see your response tomorrow. ^^
Last edited by Syndicate on Apr 30th, 2016 at 06:07 AM
Savage Opress managed to put Count Dooku in a choke-hold during enraged state of mind (early in his training process). Afterwards, Darth Maul took the responsibility for training Savage Opress in the ways of the Sith at some point. Savage Opress grew in power as a consequence and was able to defeat powerful Plo Koon in a confrontation. He was able to affect even Palpatine with his Force abilities. Therefore, you don't have to be Palpatine-TIER to affect Count Dooku with Force powers. And Arcann > Savage Opress.
Clear enough?
You make it sound like as if the title Darth is meaningless in the Empire; it is not.
Darth: The strongest Sith Lords ascend to the position of Darth. Many take a new name at this point, symbolically embracing their transformation into something greater.
Taken from SWTOR Codex Entry titled "Sith Titles."
Also, disarming a normal individual by gripping his wrists is different from doing the same to a Force-user (that too a Darth among the Sith). A Force-user uses the Force to augment his physical abilities and resist efforts of an opponent to overwhelm him in any manner.
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That is the official face of Hero of Tython.
Yes and following recognition:
"You are our greatest warrior… and our best hope." (Satele Shan)
"The Hero of Tython. Your martial skills are legendary." (Loyat)
That the fact Yoda didn't use his strength to dominate Dooku doesn't means anything other than that he didn't use his strength to dominate Dooku.
Jedi never throw all their cards on the table - especially their trump card. That's one of the main things that separate them from Sith in combat.
Look to Revan in the novel and how instead of telekinetically dominating or charging the small group of Mandalorians, he ducked for cover.
Look to Luke Skywalker in later works and how, despite being the greatest Jedi in history, did not dominate Lumiya quickly despite wanting to.
However, when something they want can only be achieved by utilizing X, and then assuming X is acceptable to their doctrine, they will use it.
I point to then Revan unleashing both sides of the Force upon Vitiate or Luke Skywalker pinning Darth Caedus against a chair for this.
Yoda did not need to throw down all his cards against Dooku to win quickly, and so he didn't. He stuck with his main cards and kept the others back.
If anything, that further brings the point home: Yoda was humiliating Dooku without even bringing all his powers to bare upon him. Pitiful.
When the instances of Grievous dominating Jedi through physical strength are an actual fraction compared to those where the Jedi handled it fine, your argument that Dooku not being bothered by Grievous' blows is not that relevant. There's also the fact that "there had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to out-duel the cyborg," bringing forth the possibility that Grievous' strength could have actually challenged Dooku anyway. We don't know.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Apr 30th, 2016 at 06:18 AM
I actually agree with Ant on the Yoda vs. Dooku thing; the various sources depicting their duel makes it clear that Yoda is basically dominating him in every capacity, and I wouldn't be surprised if he could have just defeated him with telekinesis outright, but doesn't do that because he's a dumbass he's a Jedi. As Ant points out, it's pretty common for Jedi to mysteriously not use their telekinesis when they pretty obviously could; Luke's musings in Specter of the Past suggest that the Jedi fear that abusing the Force could tempt them to the dark side. Yoda does use TK in certain circumstances, such as against Palpatine and his red guards, and even against random clone troopers, but hey, the Jedi can be hypocrites, who knew? Plus, Dark Rendevous makes it clear that
1. Yoda doesn't want to kill Dooku
2. Nexus! amped Dooku still can't take on Yoda
The gap is pretty vast.
That being said, I don't see any reason to think that Arcann can dominate him outright.
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Last time I checked, nobody has infallible memory. Almost everybody whom I had the honor to debate with, have made a mistake or two while recalling events.
Next time, I will document such mistakes and PM to you. But seriously...
Apr 30th, 2016 05:38 AM
