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The Architect.... The Great Trickster.
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mac11586
Fallen Jedi

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Atlanta

i agree,

it would seem neo is being led on a journey of discovery. For instance, in the first movie he meets the oracle she puts him on a path to so something that has never been done before and face the agents. He does this at the federal building and frees morph.

That path also leads him to fight an agent one-on-one, again he wins something that was never done.

Next he is killed and is resurected than totally kills an agent, never done.
(are we starting to see the pattren then hold on i got more.)

We later find neo waiting to hear word from the oracle again in m2.
In the first movie she led him to discover himself now he must discover the matrix. From the oracle he is led to the french dude. From there he meets the keymaster. From there he meets the archiutect. He then discovers his new powers.

The past 2 movies have been basically man vs. himself, and man vs. society. Meaning first one he had to find himself and second he had to find and beat the whole system.

I am very excited to see what he cand do and will do next. And to see where his path takes him. "The path of the one is made by the many. If one fails then we will all fail." I'm sure that line wasn't in the movie and game for nothing.

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 04:05 PM
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maul's woman
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Location: North Bergen New Jersey

Yes the Architect didn't look too pleased, but smug as well. Why? Because Neo chose to save one life instead of saving a community by choosing 16 females and 7 males for future breeding? That would be the "common path" in the eyes of the Architect to choose one person. The Altruistic path, or the sacrificial path would be to choose the community survival.

Btw, Helmut Bakaitis did an excellent job acting the part of the Architect. He was perfection there... intense eyes, stone faced... he has an aura that was perfect for the role.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 04:46 PM
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mac11586
Fallen Jedi

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Atlanta

i don't think the arch. knew what neo was going to do. For instance the oracle said that they can see the end of the path but beyond that they can't know.

The arch. knew neo's path ended with him but he couldn't know the choice. He could guess and reason. The 5 before neo chose the entire civilization. Neo was the first to do otherwise. He might have known when neo started to make the choice, the whole line about reaction to love.

But i doubt he knew from the begining because if he did i cant see why he would let the one be someone who would fall in love and throw away everyone else. This wouldn't be the first time he was wrong either. He said trinity would die and there was nothing neo could do about it when in fact neo did bring her back to life.

The fact is he is to smart for his own good. He keeps overlooking obvious things for normal people. That is why his first matricies didn't work and why it took the oracle to figure out why. He is not all knowing and he dosen't know what neo is going to do. CHOICE.

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 05:00 PM
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maul's woman
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Could be that is what the Architect WANTS Neo to think and know. He knows all too well that Neo is the random element and not a true rogue program. He has been expected. There is a certain magic in the number 6. What that magic is will be determined in MATRIX REVOLUTIONS. The thing is that the Architect is a part of the A.I. that builds or "creates" while the Oracle analyses and makes deductions. The Architect Neo will never see again. That present manifestation is done with. Neo moves to do whatever it is he is meant to do. The Matrix itself continues and probably in the end Neo becomes part of the A.I.'s higher functions. The old "keep your friends close, but keep your 'enemies' closer".

Maybe in time Neo becomes the Architect.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 05:10 PM
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Ushgarak
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Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

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Complicated it may be but only as an interaction of relatively simple concepts. I think you will find it is all a hell of a lot simpler than you have been trying to make out. You deliberately make life more complex by assuming the Architect lies.


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"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:35 PM
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maul's woman
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Location: North Bergen New Jersey

The most effective and dangerous lies are the ones buried within the truth. Disguised so ingeniously that the listener wouldn't even know it's a lie. Both the Oracle and the Architect "lied" in their own fashion as a prod to move Neo along. I love the look in Helmut Bakaitis' eyes at the end..."triumph". big grin


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:40 PM
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Ushgarak
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That is still, more than likely, more complex than it needs be. The effect is FAR greater when the Architect tells cold, clinical truth.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:41 PM
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mac11586
Fallen Jedi

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Atlanta

i agree with Ushgarak,

if your arch. is all knowing there is no reason to lie to neo. And the oracle never lied about anything.

1. She told morph he'd find the one.
2. Told trinity she would fall in love with the one.
3. Told neo either he or morph would die. Neo died.

The only person that "lied" was the arch. I think he didn't mean to lie he just didn't know neo could do anything about trinity when she died. Neo broke the rules of the program which he can do being the one, and the arch. being a program could not have forseen that.

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:47 PM
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Ushgarak
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No, that wasn't a lie. He was right, Trinity did die. But Neo brought her back after death just as he was.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:52 PM
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maul's woman
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Location: North Bergen New Jersey

That is also very true. But that is for us and Neo to discern. How do we actually know he is telling the cold clinical truth. Deception can occur with the truth. The absolute truth the Architect told was that Zion will be destroyed and that everyone was going to die... i.e. the A.I. system is about to be backed up and rebooted. He can save Trinity in either case regardless which door he goes through. The "lie" is that he has a choice in the grand scheme of things. The "choice" in itself was a deception.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:52 PM
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Ushgarak
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He DID have a choice, though, or as the Oracle pointed out he would have been able to see if Trinity died.

BTW, the Architect said they had become exceedingly good at destroying Zion. But it was not a certainity in the same way that Trinity dying was.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:54 PM
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mac11586
Fallen Jedi

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Atlanta

thats a good point i didn't think of that (should have though).

I still say they can't tell what neo is going to do because
1. He dosen't have to follow the same rules as the other programs. So the programs can't even imagine what he can do. A program can only do what it is told or knows.

2. There is still free choice. The arch said it himself the matrix needs it or it fales. The very nature of free choice is that you decide you can't be told what to do. At the most these all knowing programs can only see the diffrent paths that are open.

Like morpheus said in the movie "I can only show you the door. You have to walk through it."

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:57 PM
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maul's woman
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Location: North Bergen New Jersey

Ah! Withholding of vital information. Never give too much and let the listener mull it over. Roll it around on the tongue for a spell. Perhaps Neo heard and saw something in what the Architect said. He is not human so there is no body language but the face spoke volumes. The Architect was pleased. The gleam in the eye that was ever so slight and the infinitessimal smile on the lips at the end. Neo was actually doing exactly what was expected. That we will find out in the next movie no doubt. Humanity changes, Zion dies but Neo moves on.


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Last edited by maul's woman on Jun 3rd, 2003 at 07:19 PM

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 06:59 PM
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mac11586
Fallen Jedi

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Location: Atlanta

you are reading way to deep into that. I think you are missing the whole point of free choice. and why would the arch. want the end off all people which is the machines power supply. And if for some reason he did why wait until the 6th time why not the 3rd or 4th or wait for the 7th that sounds like a good number. Again i say he didn't know you can't know someones descion. You might make an educated guess but again he didn't know or else it wouldn't be "free" choice now would it.

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 07:07 PM
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maul's woman
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The truth of all truths here is that there really isn't any "free" choice. All choices are made in conjunction with the choices of others depending on all circumstances. Remember also we and they are told that humans were the sole source of power. Any machine and artificial mind as advanced and powerful as the A.I. would have found alternate power sources and adapted itself to it's usage. Geothermal, for instance. The surface of the earth has not been seen in a very long time by humans. They assume it is covered in darkness, but cannot be very certain. The scene we saw in the first movie was taken when. When did any human last saw the surface of the earth and the sky. No life form on earth cease to exist in total. Even on Venus there are light patches no matter how small. The A.I. would have found a way to get back the sun for its power uses. All this information is not necessary for Neo to know. All he needed to know was what was needed for him to "choose" a door. The Architect gave him ONLY what was required.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 07:26 PM
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Ushgarak
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Right, look, we are told the humans are the machine's only practical source of power, and that is the set-up of the film. You say they WOULD have found other sources... but the set-up of the movie is that they have NOT. So stop assuming things that are outside the concept of the film.

BTW, Morpheus has seen the human fields, which are on the surface, and also the Osiris was on the surface when it saw the diggers, and it is still dark, the sky still 'scorched'. Captain Thaddeus even talked of the surface as something he had seen several times before; it is not that rare.

The AI has NOT FOUND ANY SUCH WAY.

Please God, stop making this more complex than it is. You are virtually inventing a different film. It really is quoite conceited of you to assume one of the basic lynchpins of the WHOLE scenario is false.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 07:29 PM
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maul's woman
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Location: North Bergen New Jersey

We have not seen the last movie yet so we have to assume all kinds of things within the boundaries of that universe the Wachowski Brothers created. LOL!!!

FIRE AWAY! THIS IS GREAT!!!

They have been on the surface yes. But within the boundaries of the "make believe" world the A.I. created. Why? To hold the humans hostage for an eternity. Feeding off them, using them.


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I'm Maul's Woman... BEWARE!

Last edited by maul's woman on Jun 3rd, 2003 at 07:40 PM

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 07:37 PM
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Ushgarak
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Well, they have already stretched that point far enough with the Architect's revelation that they COULD survive without the humans, albeit clealry not very happily.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 07:38 PM
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maul's woman
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Ok! Ok! Good. But it goes further than that. Ultimate reality can kill the humans just as quickly as the sentinels. This highly evolved and convoluted world created by the A.I. is for a reason other than using the humans as a power source. Why do you think that is? For survival of another kind. As protection against the humans? Why?


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I'm Maul's Woman... BEWARE!

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 07:41 PM
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Ushgarak
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It's there because it has a practical purpose and keeps the humans safely enslaved, is all.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2003 07:43 PM
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