Gender: Unspecified Location: North Bergen New Jersey
But like you said.. there are random elements in your choice to drink and drive. There is no guarantee that you will hit someone and kill someone. There is no guarantee that teh police will pull you over. There is also a chance that you will get home fine. The true outcome in some cases you cannot know because of random elements.
Neo is taking the Architects advice that Zion will be destroyed if he saves Trinity, but it will also be destroyed if he goes through the door on his right and saves it at the same time by choosing 23 individuals to repopulate it. So in the reality of the Matrix, Neo is not truly making a choice that will change anything. In both scenarios Trinity dies and Zion is destroyed. But then, of course, that is what he is being told. The A.I. was solely interested in his thought processes concerning this situation. He made a different decision than the other 5 chosen. He went out stage left.
You keep assuming that Zion will fall in the 3rd movie. For all we know they find a way to fight and beat the machines. Again i say the arch. saw a certain path. If you leave left Trinity will die and Zion will fall. Well that is the most likely outcome but that dosen't mean it will happen. You said yourself their are random elements. Maybe they find some giant EMP that kills all machines. We don't know what can happen and neither does the arch.
The architect did tell the truth, but it manipulated it to his liking. The architect was baseing what he said to Neo in what he thought would lead to the most control. Look at what he said...
1. the first 5 had chosen this door, always. Neo should follow their example.
2. Death of all mankind
3. Death of Trinity.
The archietect was trying to manipulate Neo by using the things that matter most to him, and making it look grim.
He is loading the question to try and control.
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
technically the arch can't know that it will be death to all mankind.
I have a question to pose to you who believe neos choice had no relevance. If you can disuade my argument i will concied.
What if neo wakes up from his coma and decides to go for a walk outside the ship? While walking he finds a button that says push for a giant EMP. This in turn kills all machines. Than the arch. would be wrong about all mankind dying.
My point is he can not know what will happen next their are to many possiblities.
Gender: Unspecified Location: North Bergen New Jersey
Oh yes, the Architect absolutely knows. He is a manifestation of the A.I. just like The Oracle, and the A.I. has created the entire scenario. The question is, what is Neo going to do. Smith is involved in this as well. Well he tie up Neo to the point that Zion is bereft of his help? His input? Smith is the random element. Another thing. The EMP cannot be used when members of Zion are jacked into the Matrix. They will short circuit and "die". Not quite a random element, but definitely something to consider.
The entire scenario is the dreamstate the A.I. created. The humans are trapped within it, but there are levels. Neo will move to a higher level if he "survives" this massive and dangerous encounter.
Finally, all of humankind does not die. Only Zion "dies"... 250,000 individuals. Humankind is numbered in the billions across the planet. All subjugated.
He maynot beable to know but by saying that, he was trying to manipulate the feelings of Neo. The machines seem to be doing a great job of playing with feelings.
you are right, each day is full of new possibilities, but his choice was made. That doesn't mean that Zion will or will not be destroyed. That can only bedetermined by the people in which it involves and their resolve to win or lose.
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
My question is how can the the architect know, if he only created the matrix? He is basing his knowledge of the first five anomolies? How then could he know the outcome already, if it hasn't happened already and if they are not inside the matrix, how can he control them? They are not plugged in to his will. So therefore he can't control them or know if there is only the one matrix?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
This is new to the arch. New scenarios new x's and y'z. He as never seen nor needed to think about this equation. And even then it is outside of his realm the matrix. It is in the real world. Where he has no power
Gender: Unspecified Location: North Bergen New Jersey
Of course that is what he told Neo. Neo needed a point of reference on human terms and so the A.I. appeared before him as a human... The Architect. It probably used is visage of the actual human who pioneered or oversaw the development of the A.I. 200 years ago. The same for the Oracle, but she never said who she truly was. Morpheus said that she is very very old. clue. The Architect is very very old. Long deceased. The A.I. used the visage of its "maker" to talk to Neo. Give him clues and crumbs and talk rapidly and in half riddles to spur him on. Neo is smarter than the other 5 chosen. Plus the Architect appealed to Neo's emotional side. His mildly selfish side. He is not as altruistic as the other chosen. He chose his lover. But, of course, there is more to all of this. Neo had listen extremely closely to what the Architect had to say to him. He chose stage left because of the Architect. Neo knew there was more. In the end maybe he will realize that the Architect and the Oracle are one and the same... the A.I.
It is very possible that the architect and the oracle are one and the same. I think Neo knows there is more than what the architect said and that in part led him to chose the other door, how about when he left, Neo and the architect talked about meeting again. What is the possibility of them meeting again? What would happen?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
Has anyone ever considered that perhaps even "Zion" is part of the Matrix? That it's just another realm created by the machines as a form of control? They created it as a place to go for those who don't accept the "normal" Matrix, so that they will THINK that they are free, when in fact they are not. Remember what Morpheus said..."What is real? Define real." If the machines can develop a program that enslaves humanity by making them believe they are living in a 20th century city, why not just write a program that makes you THINK you've been unplugged, freed and taken to Zion. The fight against the machines is the "misery and suffering" the machines realize we need to BELIEVE everything is real. (Remember, they tried to make everything nice and perfect, but humans rejected that Matrix)
That would explain Neo's ability to stop the "squiddies" even when he was apparently not "plugged in." It would also explain why Zion has been "destroyed" numerous times previously, as it's just another part of the program. Just some thoughts, any comments?
It is possible that could be, but what is to stop the machines from having matrix upon matrix and why are there none that are trying to free people from Zion, like Morpheus is to the people in the main matrix?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
In my opinion the Wachowski brothers are leading up to the idea that the Universe is essentially a fractal. Each layer of reiteration within the larger program generates a sub-layer of reality (an individual Matrix).
Philosophically it ties in perfectly with all of the other ideas they are presenting.
Well, why would you try to escape a prison that you didn't know you were in? I surmise that those in Zion already THINK they are free, and in reality NOONE is REALLY unplugged from the Matrix, thus noone trying to "free" people from Zion. I think THAT is what Neo is going to find out. I really think his ability to stop the "squiddies" was the clue, as noone would have that ability in real life, yet he does because they're really still inside the Matrix. Maybe I'm wrong, but It's been bugging me ever since I saw the movie. I have a feeling I'm close.
His ability to stop the squiddies has bugged me to death as well, but if they are still in the matrix or the second matrix how did someone first get into that second matrix? Wouldn't there be people in the second Matrix like people in the first. That want out? Someone had to start in the first in order for the second matrix to appear? Why not in the second as well? or does it work 100 percent?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
Well, I would surmise that the machines created "Zion" as a realm rather than lose those that rejected the original Matrix. Then created a "program" in the form of a person who then began "freeing" other people. (Maybe the person Morpheus mentioned in M1 as being the one who was born inside the Matrix and freed the first minds, was really just a "program") What do you think? Sound feasible?
Gender: Unspecified Location: North Bergen New Jersey
I have said before that Zion is part of the Matrix dreamstate that it created for the encapsulated humans. The humans who have been "freed" actually think they are living in the absolute real world in a underground city called Zion. It is not. It is part of the world the A.I. created.
Could be reasonable enough to say that the 1st person to free minds was a program, but then what about the people that would reject he matrix? The architect talks about how 1 percent reject the matrix, wouldn't that be the same for the second as well? Wouldn't that also mean in the second matrix, there should be an anomoly like Neo?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
Maul, I read this entire thread before I posted, and I thought that's what you were getting at, but you never actually stated it. Did you do so in another thread?
This is a great thread BTW!
KMC Community Forums
Jun 5th, 2003 06:10 PM
clue. The Architect is very very old. Long deceased. The A.I. used the visage of its "maker" to talk to Neo. Give him clues and crumbs and talk rapidly and in half riddles to spur him on. Neo is smarter than the other 5 chosen. Plus the Architect appealed to Neo's emotional side. His mildly selfish side. He is not as altruistic as the other chosen. He chose his lover. But, of course, there is more to all of this. Neo had listen extremely closely to what the Architect had to say to him. He chose stage left because of the Architect. Neo knew there was more. 
