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Best Debaters
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ILS
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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: Korriban

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thumb up x2


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“The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 04:04 PM
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Azronger
Most Powerful Jedi

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: Kicking ass since 1980


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JMANGO
Does one truly see Ant going down a tier after yesterday ?

I think Ant stays in the same tier, maybe moves up a few places, but this isn't really about Ant vs Elm to me. It's Vader who's at stake largely


Keep in mind these are my thoughts after only a since read, so my opinion may be altered upon further introspection, but as of now this is my general impression.

I might be a bit unfair to him as debating ability is not solely defined by logical acumen, but looking back, Ant's entire career has been plagued by lapses in logical reasoning and these latest posts merely reaffirmed my position. Yes, Ant makes a valid point here and a keen insight there, but overall, many of the arguments he made were utter tripe - and not because it can be countered with as-of-yet-unveiled evidence from the source material, but rather due to the aforementioned amateurish logical blunders among other poor debating tactics.

Where Ant and his last two posts have excelled at is the rhetoric and the overall aesthetical appeal of the formatting. On the surface, those posts are gems and an absolute pleasure to read through if one isn't thinking analytically. In fact, so excellent has been this aspect of his arguments been that they have succesfully concealed the lackluster mess that lies beneath to the untrained eye or the unthinking mind, to the point that I think - at the moment - he is winning.

It is virtually the polar opposite of Ell's posts. Ell's rhetoric and formatting have ranged from god-awful to passable but never great as far as I recall. The actual substance of the arguments far surpasses that of Ant's, however, which is why I would pick him as the winner if it came down to my judgement. But alas, it does not, and judging from the reactions of other people, Ant is indeed winning this.

Ell's lack of proper rhetoric is killing his chances. Ant is a master at wooing the rabble to his side and his way with words has seemingly convinced even some of the greater intellects of this community. He can - like Nai (the two share profound similarities upon reflection) - make ridiculous positions and horrible arguments seem plausible due to his rhetorical expertise, but when Ell tries it with deductions that are perfectly valid academically, his bare-bones rhetoric inhibits his efforts to the point of near impossibility. Neither of his posts raised the same amount of fanfare that Ant's did, because many members here are gripped by bias, incredulity and/or simple stupidity.

It is for this reason I am so glad this debate is decided by judges elected based on merit rather than a democratic vote where every kbro, LeGenD and Nephtard can participate in. I hope they can see through Ant's word tricks and judge the debate on the basis of the substance of the arguments. And for the record, if they do give Ant the nod despite the criticisms I have outlined above, then there may be more to his arguments than I give credit for. As a reminder, these were simply my general thoughts upon first reading which are subject to change, and I am not a Tempest or a Silver; I am, to my great dismay, a simple human being so admittedly my judgement may be off right now, but we'll see.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:00 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

That was genuinely the most amusing post I have read on KillerMovies since the prime Carthage days.

Edit: When I go home, I'm adding it to my profile.


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"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Last edited by Jaggarath on Mar 8th, 2018 at 05:13 PM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:09 PM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

Well, I think your logic was good Ant.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:18 PM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Damn, the Nephtard has spoken smile

(ngl that has been a pretty clever nickname on Az's part, assuming he came up with it)


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:20 PM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

He didn't.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:21 PM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

He didn't.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:23 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

He didn't.


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:24 PM
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SheGotHerOwn
Restricted

Registered: Mar 2018
Location:

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Keep in mind these are my thoughts after only a since read, so my opinion may be altered upon further introspection, but as of now this is my general impression.

I might be a bit unfair to him as debating ability is not solely defined by logical acumen, but looking back, Ant's entire career has been plagued by lapses in logical reasoning and these latest posts merely reaffirmed my position. Yes, Ant makes a valid point here and a keen insight there, but overall, many of the arguments he made were utter tripe - and not because it can be countered with as-of-yet-unveiled evidence from the source material, but rather due to the aforementioned amateurish logical blunders among other poor debating tactics.

Where Ant and his last two posts have excelled at is the rhetoric and the overall aesthetical appeal of the formatting. On the surface, those posts are gems and an absolute pleasure to read through if one isn't thinking analytically. In fact, so excellent has been this aspect of his arguments been that they have succesfully concealed the lackluster mess that lies beneath to the untrained eye or the unthinking mind, to the point that I think - at the moment - he is winning.

It is virtually the polar opposite of Ell's posts. Ell's rhetoric and formatting have ranged from god-awful to passable but never great as far as I recall. The actual substance of the arguments far surpasses that of Ant's, however, which is why I would pick him as the winner if it came down to my judgement. But alas, it does not, and judging from the reactions of other people, Ant is indeed winning this.

Ell's lack of proper rhetoric is killing his chances. Ant is a master at wooing the rabble to his side and his way with words has seemingly convinced even some of the greater intellects of this community. He can - like Nai (the two share profound similarities upon reflection) - make ridiculous positions and horrible arguments seem plausible due to his rhetorical expertise, but when Ell tries it with deductions that are perfectly valid academically, his bare-bones rhetoric inhibits his efforts to the point of near impossibility. Neither of his posts raised the same amount of fanfare that Ant's did, because many members here are gripped by bias, incredulity and/or simple stupidity.

It is for this reason I am so glad this debate is decided by judges elected based on merit rather than a democratic vote where every kbro, LeGenD and Nephtard can participate in. I hope they can see through Ant's word tricks and judge the debate on the basis of the substance of the arguments. And for the record, if they do give Ant the nod despite the criticisms I have outlined above, then there may be more to his arguments than I give credit for. As a reminder, these were simply my general thoughts upon first reading which are subject to change, and I am not a Tempest or a Silver; I am, to my great dismay, a simple human being so admittedly my judgement may be off right now, but we'll see.

10/10

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 05:24 PM
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JMANGO
Restricted

Registered: Feb 2018
Location:

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger


I might be a bit unfair to him as debating ability is not solely defined by logical acumen, but looking back, Ant's entire career has been plagued by lapses in logical reasoning and these latest posts merely reaffirmed my position. Yes, Ant makes a valid point here and a keen insight there, but overall, many of the arguments he made were utter tripe - and not because it can be countered with as-of-yet-unveiled evidence from the source material, but rather due to the aforementioned amateurish logical blunders among other poor debating tactics.



Ant has made some logical blunders in the past. And I largely agree that when it comes down to precise logical argumentation in metrics that share a common denominator, no one has keener eye for detail, or sifting through BS than Elli. However, the mistakes Ant has made have mostly regarded the somewhat inconsequential points - an example being the supposed absence of electric towers. The main victories however, do stand up nicely. And unless i'm swayed in the other direction:

- Vader is no longer carried by the awesome theatrics of starkiller
- Vader has a few limitations himself when it comes to environmental feats
- The scope Malak's power is greater than most have pinned him down

These are subjects where Ant's better research of the topics at hand, really shine through. Ex - Starkillers showings are the only thing that carry carried Vader in a feats argument. Regardless, Starkiller II was utterly exhausted in the fight. Probably impeding his skill to a great degree. The rebuttals Elli had to that point based on Maul and Dooku's respective methods of combatting exhaustion didn't really work regarding what he wanted starkiller to represent. Ant could not only refute those exmaples specifically, but also had an example of his own that gave a broader perspective to how one views force reserves and exhaustion to jedi in general. He was better equipped to tackle that point, and it's a pivotal one.

quote:
Where Ant and his last two posts have excelled at is the rhetoric and the overall aesthetical appeal of the formatting. On the surface, those posts are gems and an absolute pleasure to read through if one isn't thinking analytically. In fact, so excellent has been this aspect of his arguments been that they have succesfully concealed the lackluster mess that lies beneath to the untrained eye or the unthinking mind, to the point that I think - at the moment - he is winning.


The formatting is nicely done and it's easy to read. But it's not exactly a visual masterpiece that strays one from sober thought. The readability is actually something that encourages people to analyse the substance of a post, and allows them process the information more easily. This way we can understand exactly premises are being stated and the conclusions that are being made. Likewise well formatted points that don't make sense can be spotted a mile a way. Ant's post being easy on the eyes is a point in favour of him. But it's aesthetics aren't compensating for a lack of reasoning. More they help readers peer into his line of thinking, and decide for themselves wether they agree or not.

quote:
Ell's lack of proper rhetoric is killing his chances.


Eli's rhetoric is absolutely fine. In fact, he has a way of turning people's premises against them that make him truly terrifying to argue against. Ant's rhetoric in battling some of the Vader scaling may look fancy yet lack substance, but here's the thing... the scaling itself is so inconsistent with the rest of material all one has to do is point out the implications to rebuke it. Ant did that in his last post by demonstrating the kind of people that gave Vader trouble in his early career, and there are too many numerous examples of this happening to just be deemed lowballing.


quote:
It is for this reason I am so glad this debate is decided by judges elected based on merit rather than a democratic vote where every kbro, LeGenD and Nephtard can participate in. I hope they can see through Ant's word tricks and judge the debate on the basis of the substance of the arguments. And for the record, if they do give Ant the nod despite the criticisms I have outlined above, then there may be more to his arguments than I give credit for. As a reminder, these were simply my general thoughts upon first reading which are subject to change, and I am not a Tempest or a Silver; I am, to my great dismay, a simple human being so admittedly my judgement may be off right now, but we'll see. [/B]


We will see indeed.

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:36 PM
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Selenial
I Choose Violence

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That was genuinely the most amusing post I have read on KillerMovies since the prime Carthage days.

Edit: When I go home, I'm adding it to my profile.


I quite enjoyed the part where he said the presentation and articulation of the arguments were awful, but the core (that he helped come up with) was glorious. I wonder if he sees a trend

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: not that I necessarily agree or disagree with the post, but I got a chuckle out of it


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Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 12:02 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote:
an example being the supposed absence of electric towers.


I simply opted not to respond to the Canon argument until The Ellimist and I agree on policy.

(AKA. Is continunity relevant given the guidelines we allegedly agreed on?)

I maintain my argument about the electrical towers, which The Ellimist Azronger grossly misinterpreted.

I will address that point seperately tomorrow, since I never realized people thought Azronger was right there.


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Last edited by Jaggarath on Mar 9th, 2018 at 01:59 AM

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 01:54 AM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
I'm not exactly fond of Selenial, or Ziggy yet still placed them alongside the greats. I have absolutely nothing against or for NewGuy, but I placed him at the top, and I've placed one of my gewd friends as a mid-tier. And I can say several other users do the exact same.

I don't agree with Az's general positions(like DE Sheev is millions of times more powerful than TPM Palpatine) but he is articulate and intelligent. I agree with Ellimist on more things than I do with Ant, but still I ranked Ant higher because he's better in my eyes. I'm ranking arguments, not opinions.



I do not... Nor do I see how this is relevant?


1. I have nothing with Ant. I talk about Azronger. But holding Ant in higher regards than Azronger is a good thing.
2. Eh, I was just checking on you.


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RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 04:25 PM
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MythLord
Diamond

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Homeworld


 

You truly are a strange human being.


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Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 06:36 PM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

Yeah, ironically Az/Elm actually proved Ant right about the electrical towers imo. Theres no sign of the ripped up sections in the second kind of cutscene.


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Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 08:37 PM
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ILS
Restricted

Registered: Oct 2014
Location: Korriban

Account Restricted


 

I'm better than you all.


__________________

“The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 08:51 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
You truly are a strange human being.


I don't believe that, and you're sounding like a Separatist.


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 09:08 PM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, ironically Elm actually proved Ant right about the electrical towers imo. Theres no sign of the ripped up sections in the second kind of cutscene.


__________________
RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 09:09 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Immortal Emperor

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: The Eternal Throne


XSUPREMEXSKILLZ is online now!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
I'm better than you all.


Kill yourself


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Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 09:09 PM
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Deronn Solo
King Yami

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: The Astral World


 

Az is salty, a superior debater, in his mind at least, in Elm - is seemingly getting his rear kicked in using arguments he help give birth to.


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Last edited by Deronn Solo on Mar 9th, 2018 at 11:07 PM

Old Post Mar 9th, 2018 11:03 PM
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