In all honesty, it's unlikely. Our last general election was only last year, so it's unlikely that our Prime Minister standing down will result in anything good. There's a high chance that Boris Johnson will be our next PM, and he's extremely re-electable, even if he were to hold a snap election he'd have a high chance of winning. I don't trust Boris, he plays the fool even though he's probably the smartest and most ruthless of the Tories. I don't see any good coming of this leaving of the EU, not in the hands of the Conservatives.
I'm saying that the Leave campaign was primarily built upon the spreading of misinformation. As a result, the Remain campaign (which was pitiful) spent most of its time explaining how the Brexiters were distorting the truth. I can't stand up for the Remain campaign; it didn't have half of the fervour of the Leave one. It let itself down.
"What's the problem with hard Nationalism?" – Do I have to answer that one? Really? Do you remember WWII and all that jazz?
All of the stuff I said about the working class being galvanised to vote came from the mouth of a Brexit voter (in this case a Lexit voter, i.e. a left-wing Leave voter), so take from that what you will. He saw it in a positive light, I see it in a negative one.
Fair enough, I disagree that it was primarily built on misinformation completely. I originally thought you was coming from a 100% supporting Remain side.
You don't have to answer it, because I'm very well aware of history.
Your whole point of no ferver in the Remain campaign kind of hints at what I was saying. The Leave campaign was helped by people all feeling passionate and wanting something new.
I'm very proud of my heritage and my roots. I gladly celebrate the fact I'm Scottish and venerate my forebears. Visiting the landmarks of previous civilisations. Being proud of who you you are isn't a sin. Hard nationalism isn't a a venn diagram where National Socialists are the only occupier.
I'd disagree with the Leave voter then in that case too.
And yeah, the BE was immoral. We committed a horrendous amount of harm forcing our definition of 'civilisation' upon others who we considered less human than the 'enlightened white European'. Sure things did develop from it, but nothing at all justifiable or worth the horrors done in the name of progress. I mean concentration camps were started by us in the Boer. We killed thousands because they defied us. We fuelled the transatlantic slave trade for generations, let alone other slave trades and indentured work forces the world over.
The Empire was a horrifying situation, at least when considered by our current moral standards. The fact that you say colonising in a positive sense is bad in and of itself.
It is, given that you did not say that, you said this::
And this does not qualify what you mean, but makes you look overly agressive.
Not sure what the point of that slur was tbh?
Possibly you should make more modest and more accurate claims like "a sizeable part of Polish population of young people emigrated since Poland joint the EU 12 years ago" etc. With which I'd have no quarell.
However, if this is cleared up we can move on to the Brexit issue, which I feel will be the main news for days, if not weeks, to come.
Last edited by Stigma on Jun 24th, 2016 at 10:00 AM
It wasn't entirely built on misinformation – like I say, I know plenty of people who voted Leave based on real facts. But the majority of what I saw from the Leave campaign was pure pathos, often with a disregard for factual accuracy. It seemed to primarily appeal to people who wouldn't actually follow up on the information they were delivered.
I agree with being proud of heritage and roots, it's an important part of any culture. But hard Nationalism, which is usually conservative Nationalism, is a breeding ground for racism and xenophobia. Most of the people I've met/seen in this country who would identify as a 'Nationalist' seem pretty vocal on their belief that non-Whites have no place in classic British culture, or at least secretly harbour that belief (UKIP tried to shy away from perceived racism, but the slip-ups of their MPs time and time again proved the kind of party they were).
Overall, I basically just see this leave vote as a victory for populist ignorance.
I can only disagree, but neither of us will change eachother's opinions here. So I'll agree to disagree.
A partly like UKIP isn't racist. The problem is when you have a load of old fogeys (and adults), who are annoyed at the establishment and are also thick as a short plank are given a platform to talk.
Anybody who believes different to the establishment (whether they are idiots or not) is brushed aside. So it doesn't surprise me that Roger Helmer etc end up in UKIP. And it's quite amusing because the media doesn't cover (at least generally) when a Lib/Lab/Con MP says something racist or gets convicted for something sick. Doesn't give them as much ammo as if a UKIP (who are anti establishment and seen as the enemy) member does something criminal. It doesn't prove they are anything in my opinion.
I don't see the problem with someone being a Nationalist. I guess it depends on what you consider one.
UKIP itself isn't racist, but the way that it operates is done so that it appeals to racist and xenophobes, even if it doesn't serve them. But I agree with what you're saying, generally. The only thing is, what about someone like Corbyn? He's pretty damn anti-establishment, and his chances of being elected have risen dramatically since he became the Labour leader. He gets torn to shreds by his opponents and the media sources that support them, but he's never dismissed. As well as that, I'd say that plenty of Left politicians are attacked for perceived racism and the like: look at Ken Livingstone, branded an anti-semite for his comment that 'If you say anything against Israel, you get branded an anti-semite'. It does happen on both sides.
It definitely does depend on your definition of a Nationalist. For example, there are a lot of people saying they want to leave the UK now; personally, I don't, because I don't want to live anywhere else. I love my country, and I love a huge amount of our culture. As far as it goes, I'm a Nationalist. But when a person is driven primarily by Nationalism, they tend to blinker themselves to the negative sides of their culture, and get a twisted view of why their country is actually good. It makes a person open up to any rhetoric that says, "If you don't agree with this, you hate your country" – the small-minded Brexit counter insult to the small-minded Bremain's "racist!" is "traitor!"
I'm interested to see where the UK will go from here, but I'm worried-interested more than anything. I think we're going to see some pretty big cultural divides coming up.
I would argue the difference is that while Corbyn has anti establishment tendencies. He has now absorbed himself into the Westminster Government. He's also a leader of the opposition (still a part of a main Government party) so he will be the butt of many jokes for Tory papers and such.
Whereas Farage and UKIP are like the antithesis to both. They are the opposition to everyone. So they can all bounce off of him.
And again with Ken Livingstone. He's again part of a establishment and a former Mayor with friends in helpful places. Even though he said nothing anti semitic (which the media said he did) it very soon gets swept under the brush. In short they get the criticism but then it disappears within a matter of days.
There is silly people on both sides. And mainly it is idiots arguing with idiots. For example when people say they don't want any more Muslim immigrants in the country, and not meant as harshly as that (however they phrase it). And somehow that's racist even though Islam isn't a race. It is a very big quagmire.
I could tend to agree more with the anger a Brexit supporter might express when they say traitor to a Remain voter. And it is only because of this, a lot of Remain voters seemed unaware that our sovereignty slowly erodes over time. And to see our country slowly ruined and then to see someone encourage people to vote for something that continues allowing it to happen. Although I wont say that Brexit voters are innocent. As I have seen racist remarks from them too. But I do see the point of the Brexit voters more in this case.
It certainly will be interesting in the next few months. Should be fun.
Then went on a racist cursing rant and talking about our fiat currency which means nothing in the light of things. You clearly were looking for an out.
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Jun 24th, 2016 09:36 AM
