A distracted, not defending Abby who was fighting Luke and having several of hero ther bodies killed across the galaxy got drained(unsuccessfully) by Krayt so that means Traya can insta-drain Kyp Durron before he one-shots her with TK?
I'm not aware of the ability to "defend" against Drain save for Ulic's technique, which Kyp isn't implied to know at all. Abeloth spreading her power between her bodies doesn't matter when the one from Beyond Shadows was powerful enough to beat Luke/contend with both Luke and Krayt at once.
Read what people say before you start ingesting salt. Nobody said that Traya's Drain would be insta-killing Kyp (I even stated that my argument wasn't that it would let her kill him, just that it would affect him). It's not ludicrous to suggest that her Drain would affect him to a degree, and certainly not more ludicrous than Kyp one-shotting her with TK.
I'm pretty sure a Force entity like Abeloth would have the ability to defend against Drain, especially when she was getting drained for a prolongued period of time and still didn't go down while notdefending. Abby would've massacred Krayt and wouldn't have had trouble with his Drain if it wasn't for having her power/mind spread out and having Luke there to keep her busy.
> Calls me salty
> Yet is clearly salty
Oh Razor, never change.
If Kyp was going all-out, I'm not seeing anything Traya has TK wise to prevent getting ragdolled like a punk by Durron. I also didn't say Traya draining him is ludicrous, so stop swallowing sodium. I just said using Krayt/Abeloth as an example is ridiculous.
Being a Force entity doesn't give you inherent defenses against certain techniques. Without Allies, I'm sure you'd say that Abeloth's status as a Force entity would give her the ability to defend against Force nets, but that obviously wasn't the case.
Of course Abeloth would tear Krayt apart. That doesn't mean she was immune to his Drain. My point is that being far more powerful than somebody else doesn't let you ignore their Drain.
Clearly salty over... what? I'm not even arguing that Traya wins, just that her Drain will probably work more than some people are giving it credit for. You're the one who's been riding the anti-Traya counterculture train for the past few months now, and you've demonstrated your saltiness in other threads with blatant misrepresentations of ILS's feat-disregarding policy and the Maul/Dooku-being-after-Bane argument. I have no reason to be fuming over this and I'm presenting my case with nothing more than measured reason and logic. Stop being facetious.
That's a bit like saying Rivi-Anu can ragdoll Obi-Wan since he doesn't have anything TK wise that holds a candle to her capital ship feat, which also comes off as better than any of Maul or Dooku's TK feats and they've ragdolled Obi-Wan.
I think Traya instakilling three Jedi whose collective power was enough to cut Meetra Surik off from the Force against her will makes her (Kreia) powerful enough to not be one-shotted by Kyp.
You're not one to talk about swallowing sodium, considering your post was based around countering an argument that didn't even exist. That sounds like a case of swallowing carcinogenic drugs. Nobody said that Traya would insta-Drain or anything of that nature at all. Your argument was structured around making the idea of Traya insta-Draining him looking ludicrous. All I was saying is that while that is indeed ludicrous, that wasn't my argument at all and the argument I did present isn't ludicrous in any capacity, whereas your one-shotting argument is. You're now trying to save face by not acknowledging your farcically unrelated post before and instead trying to turn the tables on me by calling me salty. That's pitiful, to say the least.
Also, just saying, but sodium by itself isn't salt. And if you do agree with me that Traya's Drain working on him isn't ludicrous, then we're arguing over nothing. Just concede that you made a totally unrelated post before and that we're actually in agreement over this.
It's a pretty drastic argument to use, but that's mostly because it's one of the few examples of somebody successfully Draining a far more powerful opponent. My point is that Kyp being more powerful (even by a large margin) doesn't allow him to ignore Traya's Drain - the argument I've maintained this entire time. And it seems that you're in agreement with that.
Last edited by SunRazer on May 19th, 2016 at 10:53 AM
If Darth Traya Force gripping the Jedi Council Masters simultaneously is canon content then he's really not, telekinetically dominating four powerful masters is an incredibly impressive feat (as is obliterating them with a single attack) and with an application of Force drain she could quite easily turn the tables on Kyp.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on May 19th, 2016 at 11:05 AM
We're talking about Masters who are literally featless [and with only a couple, not very impressive accolades] in an era when there were only few considerably powerful Jedi. We cannot judge Traya's feat correctly because we do not know how powerful these Masters were. Kyp is one of the most powerful Jedi in an era that includes Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn, etc.
Traya was defeated in combat by Surik. Seriously, if Kyp can resist the drain, Traya has no chance.
Featless? Not really, Kavar with a Force wave floored and incapacitated half a dozen soliders, incapacitate the Exile with a push, and also incapacitated an entire room of people with ease, while Vrook was able to with his own TK incapacitate the Exile (and her party) and later put her in a Force stun. Collectively they could sever her from the Force. Granted we don't know much about Vash and Zez-Kai Ell (though Kai Ell may have launched Hanharr like a hundred meters with a push), but Kavar and Vrook set a good benchmark.
EDIT: Its also possible if not likely that they together telekinetically rebuilt the Jedi Enclave.
And Traya was defeated by Surik in lightsaber combat, without being able to use drain, this is Force only and her Force drain will be absolutely effective against Kyp. We've no reason to believe otherwise.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on May 19th, 2016 at 03:18 PM
Registered: Jul 2014
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Either you have Traya below Fisto, or Kyp above Sidious, for this analogy to actually make sense.
I could actually believe both given the malignant cancer you've been spouting across these forums recently... A simple dose of bleach once at night could help rapidly solve your obvious problems however
Okay, I give you Kavar's dozen soldiers TK feat and the stunning of people in the cantina.
They're good, but I still hold it's not that impressive, certainly not nearly enough to prove they're anywhere near Kyp's level.
As for both Masters' feats against Surik, don't those things happen only if you go dark side? Not sure, though. Could be mistaken. If that's the case, however, I thought we were only taking into account the light side storyline of KotOR II, as it's the one that's official. If we're also considering dark side storyline feats, mid-game Surik still defeats each master individually in combat, and it's not like they tried to drain her or anything, so we can safely assume Surik is above them, and not even end-game Surik.
Telekinetically rebulding the Enclave is an OK feat, but not so much because we don't know the context of it. As far as we know, the three Masters could've TK'd the same stone at the same time and place it where it should be, which would greatly decrease the impressiveness of their individual powers.
As for the drain, I know she wasn't able to use it against Surik, but if the individual Traya is facing is way above her in terms of Force power and abilities, it's not certain that the drain will be as effective. Krayt drained Abeloth for a long period of time and did not manage to actually kill her.
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Last edited by Petrus on May 19th, 2016 at 03:44 PM
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
No one's saying they're on Kyp's level, but they're still strong. The whole masters being featless and weak was brought up to simply make Traya's feat something accomplishable by any of the major Sith Lords, when it really shouldn't be. It stands to reason that the person with arguably the best Sense feats in the mythos should have strong showings in the other categories of force power too...
Lack of exploration isn't lack of strength, tbh. It amuses me how people are fine applying that logic to ancient Sith but not anywhere else
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
Petrus, I'm seeing a pattern of you deciding that someone isn't impressive, then someone providing you with impressive feats/accolades for them and you going "well ok I give you that but they're still not impressive". Which makes for a pretty pointless discussion.
Considering I still don't think those feats/accolades from the Masters are very impressive, my argument pretty much stands. I was actually very much aware of the feats Beni provided, but I honestly did not consider them good enough, at least not on this versus.
I assure you, if this was Council Masters vs. Someone Who I Rank On A Similar Level, I would've made use of those feats, as well.
There's frankly no pattern.
Well, the thing is, I honestly didn't consider their dark side storyline feats, and their light side storyline feats are a bit less impressive. If we do take it into account, we also have to consider the CM's were beaten by a mid-game Surik who still was not in her prime. That reduces their standing considerably.
It wasn't my intention to say Traya's feat can be replicated by some average, random Sith Lord. So, if that's the idea I communicated, I apologize. I actually rank Traya quite highly in terms of Force power, but I do not believe she's on par with Kyp.
Was this inside the Onderon cantina? I played the game like a week ago. If this happened, I honestly missed it. I thought he just stunned the soldiers.
Being beat by her isn't a bad thing at all, but the Exile is quite below Kyp, and the fact that the Exile beat those Masters without being in her prime, makes the Masters less impressive.
Traya managing to drain and grip individuals who are far less powerful than Kyp is not a good enough argument. Nothing suggests she would be able to do the same thing to someone who is above her in terms of Force power and combat skills.
Last edited by Petrus on May 19th, 2016 at 04:20 PM
Aww shucks, I liked you, Sel. But it turns out you are just as unnecessarily hostile and intellectually unclean as the lower Neph-ilk. I will have to purge you in fire, Gideon-willing. With Gideon as my ally, I will do what I must.
In terms of raw power? I do have Fisto above Traya, and I would entertain Kyp being Palpatine tier, seeing as how he replicates Luke's dovan basal feat with greater ease than Skywalker himself, who believed that Kyp rivaled him in potential. But of course, you obviously have a Neph-tier understanding of how analogies work, since the absolute magnitude of the disparity between the two doesn't have to be equivalent for them to convey an argument - presumably you, using a similar figure of speech, do not actually think that my posts cause cancer, but you thought to be clever to say as such, yes? Does my pointing out the biological impossibility of a literal interpretation of your prose discount your accusation? Nah. You being a moron sort of does, but that's different.
Lmao. What kind of an argument is this supposed to be? They're "still strong" - what does this mean? How strong? How do you know that being able to drain them casually translates into being able to drain Kyp in any realistic timeframe? How did you quantify this? What was your algorithm/argument? And just pointing out that a lack of feats does not imply weakness means nothing when the burden of proof is on you.
Let's make it clear. In order to demonstrate that Traya's drain would work on Kyp, you'd have to establish some level of parity between them. Otherwise drains are useless; Krayt was able to harm a weakened Abeloth with Force drain...after doing it continuously for like an hour. Do you think Traya could just walk up to Vitiate and drain him? Of course not, or any sith in his empire who learned the technique could've just killed him on a whim. It's stated and implied multiple times throughout the mythos that a significant amount of Force reserves and willpower can be generalized to counter any Force attack, and you've yet to demonstrate that drain is any different.
How do we know that the Force disparity is significant? Well, firstly, powerscaling - Traya admits that she's nothing next to ancient Sith, whereas Kyp's raw power is stated multiple times to rival Vader's and even Luke's. Traya furthermore can't defeat the Exile on a nexus, and the Exile is nothing next to Revan, who isn't very much next to Vitiate, who is weaker than Luke, who is stronger than Kyp by a much smaller margin than that massive chain from Vitiate down to Traya. For another, we can look at feats - when has Traya ever done anything to match Kyp's using a freighter as a telekinetic projectile, or manipulating f*cking singularities? Nothing, I see. You just have her killing a few featless Jedi masters and then putting the burden of proof on us to establish that they're not strong enough for this to matter. Brilliant debating tactics at work there.
And if the drain doesn't work, Kyp can ragdoll her. Even if it's break even and neither can hurt the other through that medium, Traya's dueling feats are...oops, what exactly? Levitating a few lightsabers? Kyp, meanwhile, is put by Luke in the same tier as Kyle Katarn as a duelist. He eviscerates her up close, from a distance, blindfolded, and drunk.
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May 19th, 2016 09:02 AM
