These are all great showings for Grundy, but we have to remember the "nature" of Grundy's power. Grundy is after all part elemental just like Groot. He is made up of "swamp material, so saying Groot is just wood seems silly when Grundy isn't much more than that either. What makes Grundy so powerful is that his body absorbs energy both natural and super natural to empower it. (it's more partial to the supernatural variety but it still does both).
See this is the thing. Grundy is a powerhouse team wrecker against High energy powered beings who have energy his body can absorb to amp with. Yet he's been taken down by Batman and Wildcat. Many believe it's just different versions of Grundy, but I've always seen it as the same one, just the difference of fighting someone who's very power amps him.
Fighting against Alan Scot Of course Grundy's powerful. Same vs Dr fate. Superman is a walking solar power cell with heaps of solar energy to absorb. Capt Marvel has plenty of magic energy, same with Wonder woman.
Groot on the other hand gives of no more energy than batman or wildcat so why would he have any more difficulty than they do?
I'd expect Grundy to do well vs Hulk ( gamma radiation) or Thor (magic from Mjilnor) but not so well vs Thing or Colossus (unless we're talking Cyttorak)
Despite being a huge JSA fan and about the biggest Alan Scot fan anywhere, I'd give this to Groot.
That looks a LOT like pre crisis Grundy...have you got a more up to date piece of info? I can go on to the next points, but that's the first sticking point, IMO.
the story of grundy having TK due to his being in a swamp used for the dumping of radiactive waste was pre coie, absolutely. who's who however was published and put together to establish post COIE canon in conjunction with history of the DCU. added to which those who's original who's who entries were no longer canon got redone ones in the 90's update and Grundy didnt.
The lightning stike making him "the most powerful he'd ever been" was post crisis. for me that (along with a few other incidents of similar) simply confirms that the nature of his powers havent changed. if we go back even further to his first appearance in All America he was no where near as powerful operating as a simply robber until he encountered GL. then wben GL shot a construct at him Grundy got more powerful just by touching it while Alan's construct weakened.
to fuel it further in early post COIE appearsnces the exact same version of Grundy was only moderately powerful when facing some of the baser level JSAers but suddenly more powerful when the powerhouses came into play.
its clear to me that from a DC editorial standpoint that is the guide
So you don't think ANY of his showings against GA, or Batman, are just that - PIS? What's your explanation for him absolutely murdering Killer Croc (who is > Wildcat, isn't magic, isn't solar powered etc)?
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Or, if he really DOES absorb energy, and can amp off people like Supes (solar), and of the magnitude of Fate and Alan, why then was he destroyed by this:
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Surely, he would be amped to insane levels, no?
Perhaps you may argue that THAT Grundy was different. A black Lantern. Well, he was fighting Bizarro just fine - and Bizarro is NOT a solar battery. If anything, he would be the reverse.
Here he is ripping Poison Ivy's (plant) creature apart. Very similar to Groot, no? And Ivy is hardly radioactive, or magical, or a solar battery:
Yeah, i suppose thats only fair.
Still an interesting argument on BBs part. The reason i thought this was a cool fight to begin with was both guys being plant-ish...
No I don't, no more so that Batman beating Blockbuster, . You are however making false assumptions about what I'm saying the ability to drain energy means for his power level. I'll address each in turn
The 2009 one shot (faces of evil) that the scan you posted is from was the lead in to the 7 issue mini series leading up to blackest night (your other scans)
So let's point some things out. The very Grundy who fought Killer crock and who a few pages before the very tearing apart of Killer was bitten in the throat and bleeding by Killer croc
is the very same one who the very next issue was completely unharmed by the best attacks of Etrigan. Completely unscathed by his flames. Unharmed by blow that pummelled and destroyed the bridge on which Grundy landed yet didn't even phase him. The same Grundy who fought Bizarro
How may I ask do you explain the very same version of Grundy has such varying levels of durability without the ability to drain? Is it just supposed to be a Co-incident that his durability went up when he faced Etrigan who began with an attack of hell fire (magical flame energy)?? In issue 4 he crushed and absorbed much of the power of Alan Scot's power battery
As to your mention of fighting Bizarro. one of those battles was the next issue. An issue after he fought Etrigan ( who has magic etc). The fight was also directly after we see him get zapped with an electric busrt and as a consequence of the Burst he was able to trash a tanker in a single blow (causing a major explosion). Not to mention that during that fight Bizarro also herled him into power lines
Yet after expending all that energy (a feat that based on any other feat from the series should have been completely beyond his level of power to even achieve) he is damaged severely even though similar attacks from Etrigan and others ealier did none
Without the energy of Alan's lantern amping him how would he be capable of this??
If not for the fact that he had expended the energy to achieve the very feat of crushing the lantern, why would he have been so badly damaged by it when he had (the very same version) tanked much greater damage throughout the series to this point??
The next issue he struggles for a while against Frankensien. Then when Alan Scot arrives (having reconstituted his power- reabsorbed it and reformed the lantern) he casually destroys his constructs.
This is all the same version of Grundy with wildly inconsistent of strength and durability. Apparently by your take it's just pure coincidence that he's more powerful either facing or just after having faced someone with huge energy levels (or being exposed to pure energy). I also don't know why you would think he would be amped by Sunlight. If that were the case wouldn't he be amped by the light of day ?? I hardly think anyone thinks that the energy stored in Superman's body is like light and heat. That wouldn't allow him to do what he does.
His base stats are considerably above Killer croc, and man bat. Frankly above the physical ability of Reddy too. The thing is Bat's WC, and GA all take on guys that level and above and win due to skill and using that strength. None of those characters however do.
As for the use of handbooks? I didn't. i used an actual DCU comic that is source material published by DC (not an external publisher like Dorling Kindersley (a publisher of several inaccurate "hand books").
Most "hand books" are published by outside publishers under a license and a level of freedom or loose of control is given. While those published by DC and marvel and controlled by their editorial departments are
The inconsistencies that exist in Grundy's power levels aren't as many say different from version to version. They vastly differ within the same version. Given that the level of difference and when it occurs seems consistent with the traditional take that Grundy absorbs energy, it's pretty clear to still be the case.
So all this tells me, is that Grundy can be bitten and harmed by Croc, then with ZERO explanation, absolutely rip him apart. WITHOUT any external amps. So, my point still stands - as you yourself have pointed out, it is wildly inconsistent, without any explanation. So we shouldn't ADD our own explanation to it.
As you said:
Solar energy. And you used this as an explanation as to why he's doing so well against Superman. Saying look, he can absorb energy - even from lightning! But strangely, does not have this ability when near the Sun, chock full of solar energy. In the very post prior to my current one, you even acknowledge that Grundy grows stronger when exposed to pure energy:
So which is it? Surely being thrown into the Sun would amp him??
Point of my Reddy scan, was to show Grundy casually tanking his winds. at that point - without any energy there.
So you used an actual Pre-Crisis comic to support your case. Fair enough.
Without any (canon) proof, and with proof to the contrary (i.e. his power levels fluctuated against Killer Croc - as you noted - he apparently can absorb lightning and energy and solar energy, but is destroyed by the Sun, being able to stand up and tear Reddy's arm off without amps, defeat Man-Bat without amps, defeat Amazo etc), I mean...what is it? He absorbs energy from different sources (lightning, power lines, Amazo, Etrigan, Alan), except when he's next to a powerful energy source?
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his power levels have always varied. i assumed this was classic, powerhouse grundy, in which case he'd win this easily. were there versions groot could beat? sure, but in general grundy kills him most of the time. and this weird power absorption theory...?
How is it inconsistent. I referenced his durability not his strength. His strength without any energy should be greatly superior to Croc
Way to completely miss the point
In that series we see Killer Croc bite and brake his skin. But afterwards
We have him tank Etrigan's hellfire and blows that followed unharmed (an enrgy attack that he could have absorbed especially since it's magic which his elemental nature prefers..
We then have him tank being thrown at a bridge that makes it crack.
We have him bust a fuel tanker that eplodes in a ball of flame and does him ZERO harm.
We have him being hurt by Bizarro blows before being electrocuted and not after.
We have him hurt severely by a sword at the hands of Frankenstein (AFTER he crushed the power battery of Alan Scot and was harmed by it - a feat that surely would have expended every bit of energy he had absorbed).
We have multiple varying levels of durability for the very same version of grundy in a single series. Every single high durability (and strength) showing during that series is after hes been hit by or faced high levels of energy ( Alan's Lantern was fighting to defend itself) , and every low one either without that, OR after he has clearly used/expended vast energy (like shattering Alan Scot's power battery).
But according to you that's just coincidence and doesn't provide canon proof that a shown and stated ability of the character is still canon.
I might add that this is just one story that shows this pattern there are many more.
Example two. In Infinity Inc just after COIE ( Grundy's very first post crisis appearance). We have Grundy trading blows with Nuklon for a page and a half with neither really getting an upper hand. Then Jade, PG anf Fury join the fray and after PG and Jade blast him he can suddenly solo all three. This was I might add Nuklon back before he started using his power to alter his mass and rarely used his abilities to alter density or size (the size and mass the powers that allow him to fight outside his normal class 30 to 50 weight class). So yet another example of Grundy proving to be physically even with a Class 50 without any energy expended near him but able to solo two class 100's and a low herald level energy manipulator after exposed to high energy.
There are many many more.
First I never said "grundy absorbs solar energy", I said Supes is a battery of solar energy that Grundy could absorb. Grundy isnt like parasite or Rogue, he can't siphon the energy, it has to be directed at him directly. Does supe's energy in any way operate like a sun? Does it give off heat and light? No, it creates an energy field around him that makes him invulnerable. Superman uses it to generate heat vision, generate thrust for flight. On top of which part of Grundy's curse is linked to day and night. There are many times that he's been transformed into Cyrus Gold by the rising sun (though this is very inconsistent at best).
Two points
1. So we just forget he'd alredy faced several JLAers who had directed energy at him?
2. Why wouldn't he tank Reddy's winds? Even without amps by outside energy directed at him, he's casually class 50-70.
A pre crisis comic confirmed by a post crisis one to still be canon
That scan is from Green Lantern Corps Quarterly issue 4 1993 (6 years post COIE) confirming the events of the pre coie story I posted the scans from as still canon. It also referenced the previous page the first battle of Alan and Grundy where Grundy also absorbed the energy of Alan's constructs.
His power level didnt fluctuate against Killer croc at all. Without any amp of any kind base Grundy is physically superior to KC. KC is at best what, class 10-20 ?Grundy is easily more than double that at base.
thats exactly "what it is", every single instance I've shown or referenced of him absorbing energy was when energy was directed against him. Just like I showed the post crisis lightning strike where it stated so on panel. Just like the pre crisis story (referenced post Crisis) where he was in a swamp used for dumping radioactive waste, attacked by Dr Fates magic (that fate was amazed had little effect). Just like the scan where he strikes power lines and is electrocuted.
If you look at the history of Alan and Grundy's fights or even those vs Fate. When Alan uses his power to creat a bubble to contain Grundy he can. The energy isnt directed at him but in a way to contain him (same foe when Fate used his power to do the same in All Star comics). But whe n they both direct the energy to attack him they have problems. He can suddenly shatter Fate's spells and Alan's constructs.
I believe you think I'm saying that without energy Grundy is Batman level. I'm not, without energy Grundy is a brick IMO below Thing, Standard Colosos level. A level that a smart or skilled enough fighter can put up a fight against just kike they do vs those other bricks I mentioned not thinki g of as PIS (especially since like Grundy they fight stupid).
So sorry but the canoninity of the stories that confirm the several DCU published bios stating that it is a part of his powerset is solid. Its been consistently supported for decades (I could supply several other examples including scans of Superman and others actually thinking Grundy is more powerful than earlier the same day).
Its not a theory, its been published by DC in thre different printed bios I've seen since Crisis (I've posted one) and supported by plenty of canon material.
You do know what the 'sword' that Franky uses is, right? I posted it here. It's a VERY powerful MAGICAL artifact. The Sword of the Archangel Micheal.
With your hypothesis, why should it hurt him severely?
Yeah, sorry, I really don't understand this at all (i'm probably being slow).
According to you, Grundy can absorb energy from Supes.
Can absorb energy from being electrocuted
Can absorb hellfire magic
Can absorb GL magic (as its magic, he prefers this).
Can absorb energy from Leaguers attacking him (your later point)
Yet, put him near the Sun, and he dies? Use a magical weapon (when previously, you said he prefers magic) and he is severely hurt?
This is due to his curse? OK.
But the post COIE scan you have used does not have the crucial detail needed. That he absorbs energy. It's the Crisis. Things changed. Unless you have scans with the EXACT, main detail that we are debating here, you can't use a pre Crisis scan as evidence.
Yet, direct the Sun at him and he dies. Use a magical weapon, he dies. Amazo ripped him apart with lasers and energy blasts.
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but the nature of his absorption is.....vague, at best. you're trying to rationalize every showing by using the energy absorption schtick, but...it is inconsistently shown, again, at best. in most cases where it isn't explicitly shown, you can't simply infer that it is being used. in most cases, i'd say the writer didn't even KNOW about it, or didn't use it the way it was intended to be used. unless there is explicit mention of his absorbing something during a battle, i don't think you can say he is using it. i think it's far easier, and far more accurate imo, to just say writers see him differently and portray him inconsistently. he's not the first character to be portrayed erratically, and he certainly won't be the last. as frustrating as that realization is.....
at most-frequently-portrayed-levels, grundy kills groot.
No question but that doesn't make it invalid. there are quite a few characters with "vague" power natures.
If that's how it appears than I'm sorry. Of course there are going to be stories where the writer isn't clued up. I don't however think they are many in this case.
Grundy isn't a prolifically used character. he's appeared in only 400 issues in 72 years. and frankly not a whole hell of a lot post COIE where he actually "does anything". Aside from the mini series prior to blackest night (which I've shown supports the absroption) , he has his appearances in Inf Inc all written by Roy Thomas, who just happens to be the guy who wrote the Who's who entry. So I'm pretty sure he knew exactly what the Absorption was about. especially given his passion for writting explanations for inconsistencies in characters histories (probably the reason he created the idea).
Aside from those two we have two JLA Arcs, quite a few appearances in Starman under Robinson (again know he is aware as he has referenced it). Two JSA stories from the 90's. One where Star Spangled kid (Courtney) is handing him his backside right up until she shoots him with her shooting stars and the battle turns around. Another where he battles Alan while Vandal Savage watches on waiting. Savage has spread a power in the air that drains the starheart energy (in a hope of taking it) and it weakens not just Alan but Grundy also.
Then we have cameo's like the ones in GLC where it just references pre COIE stories. Fact is the only appearances he has post COIE that don't support it are his two arcs in JLA. Those I grant are likely the writer not knowing about it as I doubt Meltzer and McDuffie would.
I've sown a couple, admittedly written by Thomas.
See the thing is it's not from "writer to writer" that he changes, not even from story to story or rebirth to rebirth. The same version under the same creative team has changed power level many times over. The very consistency of this change WITHIN a story coinciding with the obvious energy used against him. Just seems to obvious to dismiss.
But that's just it, post COIE he only has one appearance at levels like that consistently throughout the appearance. The "smart Grundy under Meltzer. Aside from that his power level has been from someone Groot could tear apart to someone Groot would be torn apart by. That is consistently WITHIN stories.
That aside, just wanted to cover this
To be perfectly honest the absorbing energy from Supes and leaguers is pure speculation on my part. The only energies i have specifically seen Grundy absorb and be amped by are
magic from both Alan and Fate when fired at him ( Alan's blasts, Fate's spells)
Electricity ( on about 5 occasions)
Energy blasts from either Starman's rod or Star Spangled kids belt.
There was only one story where Supes Fought Grundy that I remember Grundy being amped ( or rather Superman saying he was getting stronger than he was earlier that day). I vaguely recall that one was JUST pre COIE and IIRC might have also been one involving the Parasite (so not sure whether the boost came from him or not).
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