You're confused friend; I'm saying that willpower is an agent by which one wields the Force, therefore powerful expressions of the Force reflect a strong willpower, that as you so kindly pointed out, are the primary determinant of one's TP defenses.
EDIT: Though frankly its foolish to make such a distinct seperation between "force of personality" and the Force, when the Force is what sustains a person's personality.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on May 26th, 2016 at 12:12 PM
And I'm saying that you're wrong. Because you are. You can't just say "X is really powerful, so obviously they have massive willpower". It's not an automatic scale. The Revan feat by itself disproves your point since he's obviously nowhere near Vitiate + the Dread Masters in power yet he still resisted them. Sidious isn't greater than their collective might either, so by your own logic he couldn't possibly be more effective than them.
Tell that to Meetra Surik. And the Vong. Where on earth is this idea coming from that the Force is behind everyones minds? The **** is this, Evangelion?
Except I just did. Suck it. Sidious explicitly states in the Book of Anger that "anger, combined with will, is the key to power", and Vitiate himself describes how the Hero of Tython has "immense power, but you lack the will to direct it."
It being simply logical to infer that Force expressions are brought about by the user willing them to be. So yes they are relative. Force power reflects will power.
And I'm not seeing your point here, you are assuming that you need to be "anywhere near" someone in general to resist their TP, but seeing as TP resistance is far more reliant on willpower than other abilities I not seeing why that should be assumed the case.
And good point friend, Sidious > Vitiate + Dread Masters confirmed. Friend the Force sustains all living things, and binds everything together, so obviously despite being deafened to it, she was not entirely cut off. And as I recall in some book it was explained that the Vong weren't actually cut off from the Force either.
Ironically Evangelion is actually a good example here considering that much like there everyone is formed from a primordial soup/collective consciousness everyone in Star Wars is yes, formed from the Force, and when they die they become "one with the Force" i.e. return to soup.
Really this shouldn't be so hard a concept to understand, its why essence transfer is possible i.e. the transference of your conciousness from one body to another through the Force, and why spirits are able to retain their minds through the Force after death. This isn't just neurons firing off in your brain my friend, its Force-based.
Therefore it stands to reason that the stronger you become in the Force, the stronger your consciousness is made, and the fact that those with the greatest willpower happen to be the strongest of Force users reinforces this.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on May 26th, 2016 at 12:37 PM
Obviously he's wrong because you don't need anger to be powerful. Also he's talking about the key to the ****ing Force Storm, not power in general. Force Storm does have some relation to willpower. That doesn't mean every force ability does. Also Vitiate got immediately pwned just after saying that, so obviously the HoT's power was enough without will.
That doesn't follow at all. Willpower doesn't need to be comparable to Force power to use the Force. People who are born stronger in the Force than others do not possess a higher degree of willpower than someone less powerful than them. They can command greater levels of power with less will than someone less powerful but with greater will. Needing to think to use the Force doesn't mean you need to think really hard to use it really well. In DR Scout showed that her will was greater than any of the other younglings despite being the weakest in the Force. Valkorion dies from getting stabbed once while Revan survives getting gangbanged by the protags through pure will. As I said, non-force sensitives can still possess wills of iron. Are they inferior to a random Jedi in willpower just because they lack the force? No. The only thing Force power reflects is how many freaking midichlorians you have.
Did you just...... admit that willpower is separate from power and that resisting someone's TP is about willpower instead of force power?
Lol, concession accepted?
Not at all. Your logic requires Vader and Luke to be comparable to Revan, which you support with the idea that they've got feats on par with him. But if you take willpower = power as a legitimate point then the fact that he's got willpower feats vastly greater than theirs then it's just as plausible that he's far greater than they are in power.
Of course, I know you're just trolling because you're not dumb enough to actually think this is true. I'll just take it as understood by both of us that Sidious can't TP Revan since he isn't > Vitiate + the Dread Masters and that even though he's stronger than Revan, as you just suggested you don't need to be anywhere near someone to resist them in TP.
Wrong. It's directly stated that she was cut off from it.
Pure drivel. The Force can affect people's consciousnesses but it isn't made up of it. They aren't formed from the Force, the Force is formed from them. As stated in ANH.
That doesn't stand to reason at all. The Force being connected to consciousness doesn't mean that your willpower grows comparably to your force power. Character with crippling brain damage have used the Force powerfully. In TOR a literal retard could cloak fleets with the Force. He lacked the will to form sentences, but accord to you his will would eclipse 99% of Jedi. This all just a load a utter bullshit you're spewing to give characters will power feats they don't have. Its a transparently biased attempt at conceptualizing the setting.
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Last edited by Nephthys on May 26th, 2016 at 01:40 PM
How could that be possible, if Vitiate lived thousands of years before Sidious? How could Sidious be more powerful than someone who lived a long time ago?
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One of the greatest masters of the Force is wrong about the Force because Neph said so.
He wasn't just talking in terms of Force storms either, in fact in that passage I quoted from goes on to attribute Malgus' understanding of this concept to his battlefield accomplishments. And in the Dark Empire sourcebook rendering, he describes how he himself employed this knowledge to cast Force lightning, and use Force kill from a distance. So yes, he means power in general.
And Vitiate's situation is irrelevant, what's important is him associating Force power with will, but I'm guessing the greatest master of the Force in history at that point is also wrong. Right?They tend too actually, for example Palpatine before receiving any formal training had such willpower that he was able to prevent Plagueis from intruding on his mind. But I guess it was just a coincidence he ended up going to do be the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Luke Skywalker also tested for Force sensitivity by intruding on people's minds and seeing if they would instinctively resist, but no your right, there's is clearly no correlation. These people were just really charismatic.
As for your examples: 1. An exception doesn't make the rule. It's not uncommon for someone to have innate talents in one area yet nonetheless underperform in other areas they should have comparative ability in, for unique reasons, as was the case for the Halcyon family.
2. Because the fact that he didn't means he cannot, right. I'm sure he just didn't have a big enough ego, or something... Right, kinda embarassing that I have to explain this again, though I'm just gonna quote myself:Not that the fact it doesn't involve channelling the Force in the conventional way, mean willpower isn't ultimately a product of the resilience of a Force-based consciousness. It is. I never said willpower = Force power. Merely that they are relative, learn the difference.
Could this feat nonetheless be used against Vader and Luke power-wise? Uh yeah of course. But as far as I'm concerned a holistic comparison suggests a level of parity between them all.Nah, the notion that Sidious at the very least of DE > Vitiate + Dread Masters isn't that unbelievable at all.Which you have taken far too literally, as that would make her dead. Uhuh, the chicken and the egg argument doesn't have a clear answer and isn't so easily resolved, when we have Qui-Gon telling us that without midi-chlorians, life cannot exist.
But one thing we can claim for certain is that when the Force is removed, life dies, otherwise Force drain would not be a lethal power.
And your '"retards" can't do shit' argument is a little Victorian, when there are plenty of people with mental disabilities in the real world that are nonetheless capable of amazing things. I mean you do realise that one of the most intelligent people on the planet can't string a sentence together either? No willpower my ass.So if someone disagrees with you they are "transparently biased"? Lmao.
Get over yourself. I just happen to think that Revan resisting Vitiate, the Dread Masters and coming back from the dead is actually forced based (which shockingly, you'll find is an opinion shared by others) rather than a product of his amazing personality.
On the other hand, do you seriously believed that a non-Force sensitive with sufficient willpower could pull off anything Revan accomplished? If so you are truly brain damaged.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on May 26th, 2016 at 05:43 PM
1. Tbh Sidious isn't a mile ahead of Vitiate in TP.
2. He should be up to par and maybe even slightly above, though.
3. The Dread Masters are shit compared to Vitiate in just about all aspects.
4. Sidious freaking annihilates the Dread Masters in TP, as he would in any other phase of combat/life.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
(please log in to view the image)I forgot to address this, let me correct that fault.
In a word, yes. I'd say any properly trained Jedi, however two-bit, should have a superior will to even the most resilient non-Force user. Heck often untrained Force sensitives are found to possess inordinately strong wills, much stronger than there muggle brethren, for that reason.
Rey for example, untrained yet nonetheless strong in the Force resisted the telepathic intrustion of Kylo Ren, and I'd remind you that when she does so her use of the Force is audible.
And what does Kylo say when Snoke expresses disbelief that she "resisted you?", "But, she has an amazing personality!" No, he says "She's strong with the Force!". Case closed.Tbh I can help but question this, when we consider that the Dread Masters mastered the Phobis Devices, something Vitiate never accomplished.
May 26th, 2016 12:05 PM
