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Star Wars: The Last Jedi
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
What's pretend about it?


I honestly believe Disney cares more about looking like they're in favour of diversity, than putting their money where their mouth is.

They talk all about female empowerment, yet Rey is not written very well, and Leia did more (and has had more impact thus far) in the OT than she's done in these new movies. And the less said about Rose the better.

And Finn? So much made of them having a black lead, only to make him a glorified space-janitor. I mean, sure, the whole former hitler youth thing was interesting, but they really didn't go anywhere near as far with it as they could with it. Oh, and him being lectured by Rose. That was real nice.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 06:17 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly believe Disney cares more about looking like they're in favour of diversity, than putting their money where their mouth is.

They talk all about female empowerment, yet Rey is not written very well, and Leia did more (and has had more impact thus far) in the OT than she's done in these new movies. And the less said about Rose the better.

And Finn? So much made of them having a black lead, only to make him a glorified space-janitor. I mean, sure, the whole former hitler youth thing was interesting, but they really didn't go anywhere near as far with it as they could with it. Oh, and him being lectured by Rose. That was real nice.


I actually have noticed this among not just these movies, but others that are supposed to be about empowerment(It happens in WW too). And you just pointed out why I don't like forced diversity. Him being a black lead shouldn't matter. If they had this character and saw this actor and said "he is the best for the role" then that should be that.

They minimize it when they just simplify him down to "oh the black lead".

I think SWs is important to Disney, consider this:

Disney’s Profit Drops, but ‘Star Wars’ Saves the Day

It's from November though.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 06:22 PM
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-Pr-
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Eh, I actually think WW was well-done for the most part. I really liked it. She had an arc, she had flaws etc, but she was still a badass.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 06:28 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly believe Disney cares more about looking like they're in favour of diversity, than putting their money where their mouth is.

They talk all about female empowerment, yet Rey is not written very well, and Leia did more (and has had more impact thus far) in the OT than she's done in these new movies. And the less said about Rose the better.

And Finn? So much made of them having a black lead, only to make him a glorified space-janitor. I mean, sure, the whole former hitler youth thing was interesting, but they really didn't go anywhere near as far with it as they could with it. Oh, and him being lectured by Rose. That was real nice.


Hmmm, that seems like a pretty unwinnable situation. Any genuine attempt at diversity could be reflexively labelled as such I think.

I disagree. She's written just as well, or better, than Luke was in the OT. But being well-written isn't an issue of diversity. And Leia is not one of the main characters in these movies and frankly Carrie Fisher wasn't really in a good enough shape to be running around shooting people.

Again I'm not sure what any of that has to do with diversity. I suppose he needs to be a badass for it to count? But yes, part of his arc in the movie is him finding out what the galaxy is really like after a lifetime of indoctrination and learning that he actually does care about what the Rebellion is fighting for. Which Rose plays a big part of in her Canto Blight scenes.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 06:43 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Eh, I actually think WW was well-done for the most part. I really liked it. She had an arc, she had flaws etc, but she was still a badass.


I agree, but if you recall in the end she was all helpless and then what empowers her to get up and win is...[SPOILER - highlight to read]: her bf dies, lol.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 06:44 PM
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quanchi112
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Pr's entire post isn't proof of anything other than he didn't like the film. He didn't have one solid point about diversity. Sadly he won't see it.


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Last edited by quanchi112 on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 06:52 PM

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 06:45 PM
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Nephthys
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I'd also like to add that I have rewatched ANH and ESB recently and Rey is frankly more likeable as a protagonist than Luke is.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 06:50 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmmm, that seems like a pretty unwinnable situation. Any genuine attempt at diversity could be reflexively labelled as such I think.

I disagree. She's written just as well, or better, than Luke was in the OT. But being well-written isn't an issue of diversity. And Leia is not one of the main characters in these movies and frankly Carrie Fisher wasn't really in a good enough shape to be running around shooting people.

Again I'm not sure what any of that has to do with diversity. I suppose he needs to be a badass for it to count? But yes, part of his arc in the movie is him finding out what the galaxy is really like after a lifetime of indoctrination and learning that he actually does care about what the Rebellion is fighting for. Which Rose plays a big part of in her Canto Blight scenes.


It could, but it shouldn't be.

Can't say I agree (about Luke) tbh. And no, I don't mean running around shooting people. You can be impactful in other ways.

Except that he already did that in TFA, for the most part. TLJ, to me, just retreads everything and doesn't really add anything new to the character other than "he needs to be lectured by Rose" I guess?

If I can shorten my point to make it easier to get across, here it is: Don't talk about how great it is (I mean, from Disney's POV) to have diverse characters played by diverse actors if you're not going to make them interesting, well-written, well-rounded characters. Finn is the only one that approached that, and I still feel like he was wasted in TLJ.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
I agree, but if you recall in the end she was all helpless and then what empowers her to get up and win is...[SPOILER - highlight to read]: her bf dies, lol.


Grief can be a huge motivator.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Pr's entire post isn't proof of anything other than he didn't like the film. He didn't have one solid point about diversity. Sadly he won't see it.


Nice try.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd also like to add that I have rewatched ANH and ESB recently and Rey is frankly more likeable as a protagonist than Luke is.


I'd say she's more inoffensive, not more likeable, but again that's me. You obviously disagree, so that's cool.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:12 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
It could, but it shouldn't be.

Can't say I agree (about Luke) tbh. And no, I don't mean running around shooting people. You can be impactful in other ways.

Except that he already did that in TFA, for the most part. TLJ, to me, just retreads everything and doesn't really add anything new to the character other than "he needs to be lectured by Rose" I guess?

If I can shorten my point to make it easier to get across, here it is: Don't talk about how great it is (I mean, from Disney's POV) to have diverse characters played by diverse actors if you're not going to make them interesting, well-written, well-rounded characters. Finn is the only one that approached that, and I still feel like he was wasted in TLJ.



Grief can be a huge motivator.



Nice try.



I'd say she's more inoffensive, not more likeable, but again that's me. You obviously disagree, so that's cool.
You basically said you didn't like it. That's all.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:14 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
You basically said you didn't like it. That's all.


No I didn't. If you weren't so busy trying to be such an edgy ****, you'd see that. Though I'm sure you don't want to, so there's that too.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:16 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
No I didn't. If you weren't so busy trying to be such an edgy ****, you'd see that. Though I'm sure you don't want to, so there's that too.
She is the main hero of the film so that is pushing a female into the Luke Skywalker role. That's diversity but it has nothing to do with how badass she is. Luke also wasn't badass until the final film. Give Rey time to shine. She also won the first duel whereas Luke wasn't involved in any major duels until the second film. He clearly lost in ESB.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:19 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
She is the main hero of the film so that is pushing a female into the Luke Skywalker role. That's diversity but it has nothing to do with how badass she is. Luke also wasn't badass until the final film. Give Rey time to shine. She also won the first duel whereas Luke wasn't involved in any major duels until the second film. He clearly lost in ESB.


Way to completely address something I wasn't even talking about. You seem to do that a lot. Hearing what you want to hear can't be healthy, you know.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:23 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd also like to add that I have rewatched ANH and ESB recently and Rey is frankly more likeable as a protagonist than Luke is.


Gotta agree here.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:25 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Way to completely address something I wasn't even talking about. You seem to do that a lot. Hearing what you want to hear can't be healthy, you know.
Another dodge.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:26 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Another dodge.


Hey, if you want to keep lying, that's up to you.

Am I doing this right? Are these the kind of responses you want? I mean, I feel like I'm being nice enough to troll back at you, so I want to make sure I get it right.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:40 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Hey, if you want to keep lying, that's up to you.

Am I doing this right? Are these the kind of responses you want? I mean, I feel like I'm being nice enough to troll back at you, so I want to make sure I get it right.
I don't troll so I don't know how that works.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:42 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't troll so I don't know how that works.


laughing


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:51 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Can't say I agree (about Luke) tbh. And no, I don't mean running around shooting people. You can be impactful in other ways.

Except that he already did that in TFA, for the most part. TLJ, to me, just retreads everything and doesn't really add anything new to the character other than "he needs to be lectured by Rose" I guess?

If I can shorten my point to make it easier to get across, here it is: Don't talk about how great it is (I mean, from Disney's POV) to have diverse characters played by diverse actors if you're not going to make them interesting, well-written, well-rounded characters. Finn is the only one that approached that, and I still feel like he was wasted in TLJ.


Like what? She's already the leader of the rebellion, what more do you want her to do? Especially when her very well-documented health problems make it so that I'm amazed they gave her as big of a role as they did here. Even this much was a gamble. Which seems to have unfortunately backfired on them with her death. Whatever role she would have had in Ep 9 can't happen now ad I'm sure that will cause some issues.

Not really. When they get to Starkiller he admits that he was pretty much bsing his way into the mission so he can get Rey and leave. He didn't really know how to shut it down. He wasn't part of the Rebellion, he only cared about Rey. Which is why at the start of TLJ he immediately tries to leave. His arc in the movie is him discovering something else to fight for besides Rey.

Those characters would have been exactly the same in those aspects if they were all white dudes. Its a pretty ridiculous way to measure the realness of diversity. Suggesting that you can only have real diversity if you personally like the characters is a silly and frankly kind of entitled way to look at it.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 07:59 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't troll so I don't know how that works.



laughing out loud

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 09:10 PM
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Firefly218
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Those characters would have been exactly the same in those aspects if they were all white dudes. Its a pretty ridiculous way to measure the realness of diversity. Suggesting that you can only have real diversity if you personally like the characters is a silly and frankly kind of entitled way to look at it.
thumb up TLJ does not have "forced diversity". Every character in the movie has a motivation, a character arc and a reason for being there.

Just because you're not used to so many non-white or non-male leads doesn't mean there's a problem with the film.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 09:27 PM
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