Rockydonovang
freedom fighter
Registered: Dec 2016
Location:
We all need to combine our skills to stand a chance vs Bart and Malgus
Jan 19th, 2018 09:39 PM
TenebrousWay
God Tier Vaylin
Registered: Sep 2016
Location:
Ell should just concede or this is going to get even more embarassing to him.
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Jan 19th, 2018 09:50 PM
Jaggarath
DarthAnt66
Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA
quote: (post ) Originally posted by JKBart
Here is the part where we're encountering problems already. You didn't provide the necessary quotes, but I guess I can deem it obvious what sources are you basing this on. If there are others, feel free to add them, but so far I can base my answer on my personal knowledge. This scaling consists of the quote from Mace Windu deeming Vastor somebody packing as much power as Grand Master Yoda himself, and then Nick Rostu claiming Vader was the strongest presence he ever knew; since Nick Rostu knew Vader, Windu and Vastor, it's supposedly simple.
However, the basis for both notions is extremely lacking. Windu himself is depicted as Yoda's inferior multiple times. Quotes below:
So there is clearly something off with Mace's opinion. If we have Vastor as Yoda's equal, and Mace as Yoda's inferior, Mace defeating Vastor in the end, effortlessly even, is a clear "error in the matrix". Now! You can argue that the quote is about general Force power, nowhere connected to actual combat skill in a fight. Meaning that Vastor is as powerful as Yoda in terms of Force connection, general "power output" and they're in similar league as far as Force-only fights are concerned, but "all-out" fighting would be purely different story. Sure thing, there are many Kyps Durrons that pack power beyond comprehension and are only Plo-tiers in actual combat. That's the line of reasoning that stops the contradiction we see above with "Mace > Vastor > Yoda > Mace ", and it gives Vastor the best light possible. But that's not helping this debate, since it's purely combat, and I'm about to prove that Malgus is Anakin's better in actual, direct combat, not in "Force only" scenario.
Not to mention that Mace is really, really the failible character. He himself said in the same book that "he can't hope to beat Vastor on his best day", then... actually beats him in the epilogue of the book. You can't get a more obvious message about the character being failible and his opinions being wrong. He is proven wrong in the same book about the same person that he deems Yoda's equal. That's as bad of a source as you can get. It's the equivalent of using character X's quote "I can stomp Y", and having character X beaten by Y in the same source. Except here it's the plain opposite - you have the character claiming "I can't beat him on my best day" and then proceeding to actually beat him. That's the worst source possible. It's purely comical, I dare say.
Now, Nick Rostu's opinion. Here I have only a simple thing to say - he's an untrained Force user. He didn't receive any Force training at all. I would call that claiming a random Padawan the ability to state that Kit Fisto > Plo Koon, but Jedi Padawan actually received training. No comment.
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Jan 19th, 2018 09:52 PM
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
lmfao @ getting a serious response
Alright, I guess I'll actually do this haha
BTW further reinforcement of what I knew, that Bart is a really high tier debater when he's "serious" lmfao
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Jan 19th, 2018 11:23 PM
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter
Registered: Dec 2016
Location:
Only Zenwolf can defeat the evil of Bart.
Jan 19th, 2018 11:45 PM
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
quote: (post ) Originally posted by JKBart
Yes, that is correct. But that does not have much impact on the further subject; "the chain is as strong as its weakest link" as the saying goes, and one weak link here can tear apart the entire line of thought because of the way its constructed, requiring every part of the chain to be in place. Here, though, there are few of such errors.
Here is the part where we're encountering problems already. You didn't provide the necessary quotes, but I guess I can deem it obvious what sources are you basing this on. If there are others, feel free to add them, but so far I can base my answer on my personal knowledge. This scaling consists of the quote from Mace Windu deeming Vastor somebody packing as much power as Grand Master Yoda himself, and then Nick Rostu claiming Vader was the strongest presence he ever knew; since Nick Rostu knew Vader, Windu and Vastor, it's supposedly simple.
However, the basis for both notions is extremely lacking. Windu himself is depicted as Yoda's inferior multiple times. Quotes below:
So there is clearly something off with Mace's opinion. If we have Vastor as Yoda's equal, and Mace as Yoda's inferior, Mace defeating Vastor in the end, effortlessly even, is a clear "error in the matrix". Now! You can argue that the quote is about general Force power, nowhere connected to actual combat skill in a fight. Meaning that Vastor is as powerful as Yoda in terms of Force connection, general "power output" and they're in similar league as far as Force-only fights are concerned, but "all-out" fighting would be purely different story. Sure thing, there are many Kyps Durrons that pack power beyond comprehension and are only Plo-tiers in actual combat. That's the line of reasoning that stops the contradiction we see above with "Mace > Vastor > Yoda > Mace ", and it gives Vastor the best light possible. But that's not helping this debate, since it's purely combat, and I'm about to prove that Malgus is Anakin's better in actual, direct combat, not in "Force only" scenario.
Not to mention that Mace is really, really the failible character. He himself said in the same book that "he can't hope to beat Vastor on his best day", then... actually beats him in the epilogue of the book. You can't get a more obvious message about the character being failible and his opinions being wrong. He is proven wrong in the same book about the same person that he deems Yoda's equal. That's as bad of a source as you can get. It's the equivalent of using character X's quote "I can stomp Y", and having character X beaten by Y in the same source. Except here it's the plain opposite - you have the character claiming "I can't beat him on my best day" and then proceeding to actually beat him. That's the worst source possible. It's purely comical, I dare say.
Now, Nick Rostu's opinion. Here I have only a simple thing to say - he's an untrained Force user. He didn't receive any Force training at all. I would call that claiming a random Padawan the ability to state that Kit Fisto > Plo Koon, but Jedi Padawan actually received training. No comment.
With that out of the window, your notion is defeated. Your further points can go on to prove that Plagueis > Vitiate, that Palpatine > Plagueis, and that Yoda ~ Palpatine, but they don't touch Anakin or Vader at all. You can try going for all the stuff that claims Anakin and Yoda are in the same league, I presume, and hey, I agree with that notion actually. Problem is, while Yoda and Palpatine > Vitiate as confirmed by sources, it doesn't have to mean that Vitiate is out of their league. They are better, end of story, but the gap is nowhere specific. Vitiate can be in Yoda's league, while Anakin is in Yoda's league, while I can easily argue Malgus is in Vitiate's league while the inferior one as well.
However, there are actually more holes.
We have it pretty clear that Sidious, as of end of the book, is Plagueis's superior, agreed. But we have no prove on Plagueis > Vitiate, I can only agree with Sidious > Vitiate. Now, I think I can guess that you're using the backcover of the Plagueis novel here, but since I believe it to be an insane use of material, I'll just ask you to give me your basis for that part; maybe it's something different than that quote. If not, I shall write some details on this quote being non-usable for the purpose of this debate.
I won't disagree that Palpatine > Vitiate, and that Yoda ~ Palpatine, and that Anakin is somewhere in their league. Of course, I won't disagree neither that Vitiate > Malgus. However, that does nothing to displace Malgus > Anakin at all.
Darth Malgus himself is just a better combatant than Anakin. His feats are better, and he scales up enormously above every Jedi of the RotE era. If not for the quotes of Yoda and Palpatine being the clear superiors of all time, it would be easy to claim Malgus > Yoda. But as we have material surpassing Yoda from Malgus, and this quote, the only logical outcome is that Yoda is indeed better, but just the smallest notch possible, since Malgus other showings and scaling superseeds Yoda. [/B]
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I had underestimated you, Grand Inquisitor Bart. I thought the years of Bane trolling and straw-TORism had made you weak, but it has only made you stronger.
I shall now abandon my facetious Kar Vastor scaling to employ more...destructive means.
Anakin is frequently placed on Yoda and Palpatine's tier.
*grabs Nova's respect thread*
RotS novelization:
quote:
This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.
He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
Notice the elaboration on combat-applicable attributes.
Nick Gillard in The Making of Revenge of the Sith:
quote:
Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.
Notice the direct mapping of "most powerful" onto combat ability.
RotS novelization:
quote:
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
Note that the part about "getting stronger" discredits potential rebuttals of power meaning potential.
RotS novelization:
quote:
"We won't try, Anakin. We will do. After all, they are only Senators. Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."
Palpatine in the RotS novelization:
quote:
"He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself."
"Potentially" here indicates actualized power given that there would be 0 doubt that Anakin > Sidious in potential.
Anakin is a tier 9 duelist per https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908 putting him in the same tier as Yoda:
quote:
"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."
From Labyrinth of Evil:
quote:
Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.
+ way more sources than I want to post.
So observe that:
1. Anakin's placement is repeated multiple times
2. These accolades are frequently in the context of combat ability
You could then say that some of these quotes come in conflict with sources saying that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi to his time or Palpatine the most powerful Sith, but the solution is pretty clear: the mixture of sources, many in the context of combative ability, suggests that Anakin is comparable to them to at least some degree.
Likewise, you could complain that Anakin has moments where he doesn't seem to be as powerful as Yoda or Sidious, but the answers to that are clear too:
1. Anakin grows vastly in power between TCW and RotS
2. Anakin frequently fears releasing his true power - but he's not going to hold back against a Dark Lord of the Sith. He underperforms initially against Dooku because of the emotional conflict (e.g. he's pissed at Dooku but afraid of letting loose, so he consciously holds back) ala Mustafar, but Malgus here represents the goldilocks zone of being a Sith Lord that Anakin doesn't have emotional baggage against.
(cont below)
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Last edited by The Ellimist on Jan 21st, 2018 at 11:05 AM
Jan 21st, 2018 10:59 AM
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
So Malgus could hope that Anakin holds back and then win before Anakin can realize he's being outmatched and let loose. This would require Malgus to be massively above "suppressed" Anakin...but even suppressed Anakin is doing this to Dooku:
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without beingcut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was gettingstronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade
And Dooku is, per The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48:
Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
The quote clearly refers to all time , and this was before his power growth as a Sith Lord (so this is just AotC Mace > TPM Dooku). This would scale Dooku above the likes of novel Revan and the Hero of Tython as a duelist. Likewise, from Fact File 11:
Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.
This is AotC Mace Windu. Yet by Dark Rendevous:
The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.
This is after AotC, by which Windu has grown in power. The prior two quotes establish Dooku's superiority in power as well as swordplay (in case if you want to argue Malgus > HoT and Revan in sabers or something weird).
So suppressed Anakin > Dooku >= AotC Mace > TPM Dooku > HoT (or KotOR Revan) > Malgus.
Ergo, even if Anakin inexplicably holds back, he still wins. And he certainly doesn't get killed quickly enough for him to not realize he has to try harder.
Malgus has NEVER been put on Vitiate's tier of power.
Indeed, it's pretty obvious that Vitiate would destroy him with a gesture (quotes putting Vitiate above all other Force users, a weaker strike team beating Malgus but being described as no match for even a spirit Vitiate in SoR, etc.). And yet you agree that Sidious > Vitiate, so Anakin gets compared seriously to Sidious while Malgus is an ant next to an inferior foe.
Anakin wins.
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Jan 21st, 2018 11:00 AM
Azronger
Azronger Reborn
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Stop wasting ur time.
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Jan 21st, 2018 11:09 AM
Azronger
Azronger Reborn
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
quote: (post ) Originally posted by Azronger
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Jan 21st, 2018 11:10 AM
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
I have defeated the Bart
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Jan 21st, 2018 11:14 AM
Ursumeles
Traitor
Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC
Shit response Ell.
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Jan 21st, 2018 11:18 AM
JKBart
Restricted
Registered: Aug 2015
Location: PolandAccount Restricted
nice, reply incoming today/tomorrow
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Jan 21st, 2018 12:13 PM
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
up
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Jan 29th, 2018 10:58 PM
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter
Registered: Dec 2016
Location:
Elimnist's avi keeps making me think he's urs
Jan 29th, 2018 11:23 PM
Darth Thor
Senior Member
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard
Nice collection of Anakin praise right there
Jan 29th, 2018 11:47 PM
Freedon Nadd
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania
Anakin never stood up to his accolades and claims.
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Jan 29th, 2018 11:48 PM
Ursumeles
Traitor
Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC
quote: (post ) Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Elimnist's avi keeps making me think he's urs
#stopEllimist
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Jan 30th, 2018 09:51 AM
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
Anakin wins
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Feb 2nd, 2018 07:23 PM
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
bump
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Feb 20th, 2018 06:34 PM
Geistalt
SilenceThatSpeaksVolumes
Registered: Oct 2016
Location: True Happiness
It was a good fight, but I'm pretty sure Ellimist wins this.
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Feb 20th, 2018 08:18 PM
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