Fightsaber invented the seven styles of lightsaber combat so it was evidently considered official. It also doesn't appear to contradict later sources, or say much of anything that people have claimed it's said.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Aug 2nd, 2016 at 03:26 PM
Actually according to the AotC novel he did just that:
"Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust, and he soon had Dooku backing, the red blade working furiously to keep Obi-Wan at bay."
EDIT: Let me put this another way, Anakin had already mastered one half of Form V by AotC, Shien, but only later into the Clone Wars to be develop his skills in Djem So.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Aug 2nd, 2016 at 08:32 PM
You know both Vaapad and Juyo are form VII correct?
Shien is made for blaster deflection while Djem So for lightsaber combat. It makes sense that they'd be taught separately.
Dooku obviously believed it to be possible as he didn't suspect Anakin of having any capabilities in the Djem So variant despite apparently employing Shien against him in their ruse at the beginning.
Last edited by Syndicate on Aug 2nd, 2016 at 09:11 PM
They are described as distinct variations of a single style, which employ different moves but based on the same philosophy.
Galen Marek being another individual who'd only mastered Shien, Kenobi I believe also picked up Shien but not Djem So and the Jedi Exile is only taught Shien by the KOTOR Jedi Masters. Ahsoka too, only demonstrated proficiency in Shien before her apprenticeship.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Aug 2nd, 2016 at 09:24 PM
Just to clarify, Star Wars Insider is still a non canon publication, originally created by the LucasFilm FanClub, and not the LFL. However, I've just done some research that might clarify why some articles of Insider are canon within the Legends continuity:
"Leland vets the stuff I write for Insider that's fiction or includes new continuity. He's a busy man; I doubt he'd do that for kicks on his break."
- Jason Fry
So anything that includes new continuity or a fictional work within Insider, is C-level canon. Under this rule, the Fightsaber article is probably is C-canon, because rather than just making an interpretation of the source material, it does include what's likely counted as 'new continuity' - the first mention ever of Lightsaber forms and their marks of contact. However, it is undoubtedly contradicted by Jedi vs Sith regarding it's description of Makashi, and how it became popular. In this instance, the newer continuity takes precedence over the older one.
I understand the obvious reminiscing for the ROTS novel, but do realize that any notion of Dooku being 'unfamiliar' with their forms is an old concept, and probably not worth clinging to. The massive amount of content in TCW does somewhat shit on said concept... given the numerous occasions where Dooku fought Skywalker and knowing the latter taught Djem So to Ashoka.
It's about as reliable as that one statement regarding Palpatine's lightsaber, claiming it had not seen the light of day for over a decade. Obviously we know that's not true because he fought Savage & Maul with said lightsaber. Much like that nugget of text, Dooku's internal commentary can also be hand-waved as something that's no longer relevant.
The only thing that can be hand-waved is Dooku being unfamiliar with Anakin's developments prior to RotS, nothing in Canon however contradicts the notion that he didn't master Djem So until after AotC.
Certainly nothing you've presented.
Rag on about Ahsoka all you like but all we have been told is that she was being taught to "fight more like him", which is entirely relative to how Anakin fights, nor does it preclude Anakin developing skill in Djem So in those months between AotC and TCW. More importantly you continue to fail to provide evidence that he fought as a Djem So stylist as of his first duel with Dooku. Contrary to what Legends tells us. Try again.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Aug 3rd, 2016 at 10:15 AM
So rather than accepting obvious truths, we're still going with continuity according to Beniboybling's agenda - whatever that may be - which comes with his incessant need to reply to lost debates? Sorry but it absolutely does contradict the notion Beni, and it does so by making it no longer relevant to story. That's how retcons - which is short for retroactive continuity - work. Instead of creating an exception to the rule regarding the story, we have an old and outdated concept that is replaced by a newer one. But that's not the only flaw within Dooku's internal commentary. If you've read Revenge of the Sith, especially the paragraph regarding Anakin & Obi Wan's preferred forms, you'll notice that Dooku makes this statement:
blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well. Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.
- Revenge of the Sith
So by your line of thought... and by the Count's evident surprise regarding Kenobi's preferred form, we can conclude that he never used Soresu up until that point? Well you'd be wrong on all fronts there. It has been established in c-canon that Kenobi originally specialized in Ataru, and was trained in the form by Qui-Gon Jinn. We also know for instance, that upon witnessing his master's death - which is pinned down to Ataru's lack of defensive capabilities - Kenobi decided to switch his focus to Soresu. A switch that was chosen to eliminate this weakness in his own technique. All this happened directly after TPM, 10 years before his first encounter with Dooku. I'm not sure how long it takes to 'master' Soresu, but we know that Niman could have been mastered in that time :
How long can you expect to study Form VI before you master it? If you dedicated yourself only to Form VI, you will study for at least ten years.
- Jedi VS Sith
You mean your own personal theory of Anakin developing Djem So in those months during the clone wars, while teaching it raw to Ashoka? The realm of speculation and guess work is fine, dear, but that's only when said speculation is logical. There are certain tools that both philosophers and scientists use to determine ideas that are uncertain in nature. What you're omitting here is called the fallacy of the least plausible hypothesis. Shall I explain further.
"I left a saucer of milk outside overnight. In the morning, the milk was gone. Clearly, my yard was visited by fairies."
- Beniboybling
There is an old rule for deciding which explanation is the most plausible. The current phrase among scientists is that an explanation should be "the most parsimonious", meaning that it should not introduce concepts (like fairies) when concepts (like neighborhood cats) will do. On ward rounds, medical students love to come up with the most obscure explanations for common problems. A traditional response is to tell them "If you hear hoof beats, don't automatically think of zebras". Likewise, it's not too likely that Anakin had studied Djem so to the point where he could teach it to a neophyte. It's certainly possible, but still a less likley conclusion.
You've been provided with plenty of evidence, Beni. All the evidence points to it being the most logical conclusion, while your stuck with fairies kidnapping saucers of milk.
__________________
Last edited by Ziggystardust on Aug 3rd, 2016 at 11:43 AM
Gosh your egotistical sub-narrative is mind-numbing, in future could you start with the point and save the fluff till later? Will make it much easier to skim. Moving on you continue to raise zero evidence to support your claim, no surprises there. So let's get on with the rest:
1. Dooku notes that Kenobi had become a master of Soresu which there is certainly no evidence to suggest he was by AotC, or that he wielded it as his dominant form. Instead in the script, novel and film itself, Kenobi comes at Dooku with a notable aggression uncharacteristic of Form III, so evidently he was still using Ataru primarily. Something that should be obvious considering the source that established post-TPM Kenobi as picking up Soresu (Fightsaber) predates RotS, it's not a retcon, just a misinterpretation on your part.
On the other hand in regards to Anakin, he simply notes that "the boy was a Djem So stylist", precluding the notion that he was in AotC entirely. So no, as far as a comparison between their fighting styles at the beginning and end of the Clone Wars, the novel remains accurate.
2. You've made the claim that my interpretation is unlikely, yet in all your pseudo-intellectual blather not once explained why. Again no surprise.
Regardless you've evaded the central point; the fact that Ahsoka was taught to fight more like him does not prove she was taught Djem So, that only follows on from the assumption that he had at that point mastered the form. In a word it proves nothing. Given that I'm not sure I can be assed to explain to you why for Anakin mastering the later half of Form V in a relatively short space is perfectly feasible.
Altogether I'm afraid you're going to have to try again, if this even qualifies as an attempt.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Aug 3rd, 2016 at 01:01 PM
And that was the total extent of Obi-Wan pressing Dooku as right after it says:
"Obi-Wan pressed forward more forcefully,but Dooku continued to fend off his strikes, and then his momentum played out."
As for Anakin, he was clearly giving Dooku far more trouble, and for a longer period:
[i]""I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light. For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying. He tried to step out to the side, but stopped as if he had hit a wall, and his eyes widened a bit when he had realised that this young Padawan, in the midst of that assault, had used the Force to block his exit."
I belive Nick Gillard also stated that Anakin was more skilled than Obi-Wan as a swordsman during AOTC which was quite surprising (for the people who cling to every word he says).
So yeah I'm with Anakin for this fight.
On a side note a major advantage of Makashi not producing much kinetic energy:
"Off to the side, Obi-Wan understood that it couldn't hold. Anakin was expending many times the energy of the efficient Dooku, and as soon as he tired..."
Problem is though with Anakin, especially ROTS Anakin, with his seemingly unlimited Force reserves, he won't tire for a long long time. Hence Anakin's major advantage over Dooku that wouldn't apply with 2 equally powerful Djem So vs Makashi practitioners.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 6th, 2016 at 12:08 PM
Aug 2nd, 2016 03:08 PM
Thanks Scribble!
