Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Is "Cut Content", specifically TLSRCM, to be considered Canon?
Often when discussing The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod, unfinished episodes from Star Wars: The Clone Wars, or plot points that were never finished due to the Disney reshuffle from PT to OT eras, people fight tooth and nail that unfinished content is not to be considered canon.
The forum does not have an overarching consensus on the subject, so every debate in which this material is used devolves into a repeat of every other debate on the subject of what is considered canonical. I'd like to present the arguments of the "canon" crowd in this thread in a somewhat conclusive statement as to why they must be considered canon. Anyone who has a differing opinion may reply, debate, and help reach an overarching consensus on what this forum thinks.
I understand we'll never reach a phase where these things are not debated in threads, but hopefully this thread will help to remove clutter and bring the forum back to a point where the characters themselves can actually be debated.
First:
Cut Content as a whole.
Leland Che discussed Canon breakdown on the Star Wars: Message Boards way back when, in 2007. He had this to say:
In this he shows that Lucasarts view scripts as canon, as much as they do the final product. If this is the policy used by the Holocron for G-Canon, it's certainly the same for canon tiers below that. Especially given his words on C canon being "everything else".
This was further clarified recently, credit to Beniboybling for the quotes:
This mindset fits with Leland Che's analysis that Deleted Scenes are Canon:
So how does this fit in with The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod (Seeing as almost all other cut content is conclusively canonized with these quotes).
So far, we have heard that:
Script Notes are Canon
Deleted Scenes are Canon unless deleted for continuity reasons
Authors continue to write characters based off scenes that never made it into the public domain.
Addressing the first point, the script notes were released with the official game in a text file that anyone who bought the game can view. In said text file, it explains how every scene was originally supposed to go down. That's why when restored Content modders create scenes like Traya butchering 20 Sith Assassins, and strangling Sion, they're reading it straight from the script. The script for that scene says the following:
These modders are not creating their own story, they are telling the Story how Obsidian originally intended, which moves me on to the second bullet point.
Obsidian did not delete these scenes for continuity reasons. Every scene shown in TSLRCM fits with the overall story and does not drastically change the finished product in any way. The loopholes left by the scenes are never closed, on Malachor the party may not show up in the vanilla game, but they're never explained as being anywhere else. Bao Dur never makes it to the HK factory in the original game, but we still know that he died and HK is missing.
These scenes were cut due to time constraints, as Chris Avellone explains here:
And Feargus Urquhart explains here:
So they were forced to cut the unfinished areas of the game. In the same interview as Avellone, the lead programmer Anthony Davis says this of TSLRCM:
So, TL;DR: Obisidan supports TLSRCM as it tells Kotor II how it was supposed to be told. All additions are supported by script notes and scripts for the deleted scenes, which according to all executives at LucasArts, are considered canon.
There is absolutely no reason or logic behind not counting TSLRCM as canon, other than an attempt at underrating Kotor II characters.
TSLRCM is canon. Deal with it.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
No, it's not canon, but then again, neither is KotOR II, so literally no one cares. The problem is, some of you people try to use every deleted scene, completely ignoring some weren't removed just because of time constraints.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Quote? How do you have the ability to define what is, and is not, only not in the final game due to time constraints? Every edit is supported by the scripts that were released with the game.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
I'm not talking about this mod, although I'll look into that later, I'm talking about certain people named AncientPower going on about how powerful Atris is because she was intended to be Darth Traya at one point.
Eh, on the one hand, I don't give a shit about authorial intent. On the other, I haven't played KotOR II, without TSLRCM, since 2005. I don't actually know the story without it.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Fair enough, I understand both of those feelings.
I struggle to stomach author quotes about their characters relative to the rest of the universe, especially if we're talking direct comparisons between different characters. I do however respect an author's opinions on their own character or clarification on things they were trying to do with their material.
I guess at this point we've reached the question of what counts as "authorial intent" and what is an official statement of support. They did release their script notes, so at that point it's a source in the public domain that doesn't contradict the original game, merely go deeper.
I touched on it in the original post, unlike the Rancor incident from the TCW film (that I concede on, btw) none of the plot holes are covered up. Traya, for example, dominating Zez Kai El on Nar Shaddaa isn't covered up. We know Zez came, was stopped and never arrived... we just don't know why. It's the same with Bao Dur and the HK Factory, it's the same with Traya force choking Visas on the way into the Jedi Council Chamber on Dantooine. We just know Traya came in, and we have no knowledge on where Visas was...
It's almost like the game is a film, and the script is the novel released which expands on said film.
They don't contradict each other at all, I don't quite understand the issue people have
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
I think it definitely depends on the content itself and the circumstances behind it. The Kotor 2 restored content seems pretty solid in that it was indeed intended to be in the game. The lead developer said that the content in the mod was the intended experience.
Chee says that deleted scenes are canon unless they contradict existing continuity, applying that logic to KOTOR II cut content, anything that contradicts the vanilla game (i.e. Kreia ragdolling the masters instead of just draining them) should be considered non-canon, but I agree there is no logic behind considering shit non-canon when it isn't contradicted.
Problem is however deleted content, and even fan-made content, is readily used as evidence without any context given, so its important that if used it can be backed up with some proof that it would have made it into the final game.
Finally, anyone who treats TLSRCM as canon, should treat the unwritten Ahsoka story arcs as canon too.
Aug 6th, 2016 04:46 PM
Thanks Scribble!
