Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
__________________ ''It is necessary that I should die for my people; but my spirit will rise from the grave and the world will know that I was right." The Almighty Führer
Lucas' canon is more or less Disney canon, lol. Lucas has only ever been an authority on his own movies, nothing else. That said, Luke's definitely portrayed to be better than what Filoni thinks, and Grievous was, too. Filoni randomly inserting in characters like Ahsoka to disrupt continuity and repeatedly breaking continuity (which includes continuity established by Lucas), is also pretty stupid.
Your prior experience doesn't matter if you butcher things. Filoni almost certainly vastly contributed to the Legends/Canon split, since he was butchering Legends continuity so much through sheer ignorance.
Last edited by SunRazer on Aug 16th, 2016 at 08:46 AM
Again, not defending him per se. Just saying it how it is.
I don't know how badly Filoni butchered Luke and Grievous. He's never actually done any work on Luke, it's just his opinion.
But Believe it or not, Grievous getting beaten by Gungans was Lucas's idea. And Filoni kept telling Lucas the fans won't like that, but Lucas insisted (that's Filoni's story at least).
It's also Lucas who said ROTJ Luke was only half trained and not on Vader's level yet. Filoni takes it to another level sure, but Lucas began that line of thought.
Not sure how Ahsoka destroyed continuity. They specifically had her leave the order so she wouldn't be around in ROTS. Sure, she didn't exist previously, but That sort of thing just happens when you make prequels.
Pretty sure the Legends/Canon split was down to Disney.
There's no way they could have made Episode 7, under the Legends continuity, without confusing the heck out of the general audience. Besides Lucas always ignored Legends anyway, even when making the Prequels. At least Disney has dedicated itself to doing things differently from here on out, with every novel and comic book counting equally towards canon.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 16th, 2016 at 11:46 AM
1. Not saying that he butchered Luke, but he does expose his ignorance of established material on him with his comments.
2. It's not just the Gungans. Filoni's already made it clear that in his book, Grievous isn't all that formidable - strip away the unorthodoxy, strip away the intimidation, and your product isn't all too overwhelming. That's not how he was originally envisioned, either. Unorthodoxy and intimidation were integral parts of his skillset, but he was also supposed to be incredibly formidable even without them. Those (along with his cybernetics) were just the edges to make up for his lack of Force-sensitivity.
3. Ahsoka's a problem because the idea was for Obi-Wan and Anakin to be the best Jedi duo ever, and that was that. Call me hardcore conservative, but putting Ahsoka in ruins the sense of brotherhood and that deep, undisturbed connection that ran between them.
Besides, RotS clearly establishes that Anakin isn't of the mental age/maturity to be taking on his own padawan anyway. Yoda randomly forcing Anakin to accept Ahsoka is hilariously stupid and completely contradicts the way Jedi are supposed to take their padawans - which is an optional thing to begin with.
4. Of course the Legends split was down to Disney, but they wouldn't have had much choice to begin with given Filoni's rampant disregard for continuity.
And no, they could've worked around established Legends continuity, absolutely. There were a number of years that were left completely vacant in the Legends timeline. But of course, it is what it is. The only thing I complain about regarding Legends/Canon is that the new Canon is pretty damn terrible in comparison to Legends, even in terms of starting material. The novels in particular are a bit underwhelming. Fortunately, the comics are pretty good.
I'm not really following. How does Ahsoka's inclusion ruin Kenobi's and Anakin's dynamic? Obi-Wan and Anakin still had the deep sense of brotherhood and connection all throughout TCW, even with Ahsoka's inclusion, and it shows in the episodes when it's just them and not Ahsoka. Plus, there's the fact that Ahsoka left about a year before RotS, which still leaves room for Obi-Wan's / Anakin's relationship to further develop, even if you think Ahsoka ****ed shit up.
I just want to point out that Anakin didn't have to take Ahsoka if he didn't want to. That's pretty much shown in the movie after Anakin and Ahsoka destroy the shield generator and meet up with Kenobi and Yoda again.
It's only an expansion of Lucas states though. Like I said he's probably the most qualified at Lucasfilm to bridge the gap between Lucas Canon and the new Disney Canon.
I mean Unorthodox and intimidation goes back to Dooku's lesson to Grievous in both the OCW and LOE about how he would defeat the best Jedi. And even without them Filoni even outright says Grievous is clearly capable with a Saber.
And again with the Gungan thing, it goes back to my original point, that Filoni actually tries to give Grievous better treatment than Lucas cares to give him.
You say that as if Filoni's in charge of Disney/Lucasfilm and not the other way around.
I disagree. That's just too much major stuff for the Audience not to be aware of. Things like Palpatine's resurrection, Luke's and Han's kids, the Jedi Academy e.t.c.
Legends/Canon Grievous are clearly just on different levels rather than having different proportions of attributes like unorthodoxy, IMO. The core idea has always been that if you're strong enough in the Force and are able to remain composed against the randomized onslaught Grievous can produce, along with his superhuman physicals, you're in with a chance. TCW undeniably set the bar lower than OCW and LoE. RotS is sort of a sweet spot, with the novel paying homage to Legends and the movie corresponding with TCW.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Well, actually, I have gripes with Obi-Wan's treatment in TCW anyway, but that's talk for another day. They did do Anakin quite well at times (and utterly cancerous at other times). And the portrayal of Anakin/Obi-Wan in TCW as a duo is also pretty bad. They're constantly on separate missions (which was supposed to be a first in RotS), you have Obi-Wan fighting Grievous and Anakin fighting Dooku numerous times (which, again, retcons RotS) and the fact that people on this forum can even use TCW as the basis of an argument that Anakin and Obi-Wan's teamwork is shit speaks to how poorly the duo is portrayed together. But enough of that tangent.
As for Ahsoka, she totally disrupts that dynamic. Every single source from AotC-RotS beforehand builds up Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship as this inseparable, unbreakable and unstoppable duo. The entire idea is to build that up to make the RotS ending as tragic as possible. Ahsoka's sudden and unwarranted interspersion in most of Anakin/Obi-Wan's activities between AotC-RotS absolutely shits all over that exposition. I know you like her as a character, so I doubt this discussion will go anywhere, but surely even you can see just how much of (an unwarranted) retcon she is?
Ahsoka was still pretty much forced on him. Regardless, it's the stupidest thing for anyone (Yoda of all people) to just assign Padawans to Knights. You and you alone choose whether or not you want a Padawan (which is why some Jedi like Saesee Tiin go their entire careers without choosing one).
That's still forgoing the fact that Anakin's barely capable of controlling himself, let alone teaching a Padawan on a regular basis. The idea is that he's still learning. He's barely even Knighted by the end of 22BBY.
Lucas canon isn't very different to Disney canon to begin with.
Your average Jedi Knight is "capable" with a saber. The distinction is that Grievous is formidable enough to fight elite Council members in LoE/OCW, and it's not just unorthodoxy and intimidation that makes it so.
They both deviate from Grievous' conceptual ability.
It's not a matter of who's in charge. It's a matter of how much damage has already been done to continuity.
Well, if they had set a Legends Sequel Trilogy 30 years after RotJ like TFA was, this wouldn't be overwhelmingly relevant. Luke and Han's kids can be added in with no problem - they did it fine with Kylo Ren. And it's not necessary to have a full backstory on the history of the Jedi following RotJ. Again, in TFA, they managed fine. They'd also manage fine just saying that Luke had rebuilt the Order and allow that to be expanded upon by future material.
So really that's what the actual canon was all along. And whatever differences there are between Lucas and Disney Canon, like I said Filoni's kind of the bridge between them.
No, but Unorthodoxy and Intimidation were the tools Dooku always said in the OCW and LOE that Grievous would need to defeat the best of the Jedi.
And by the Best, he clearly wasn't referring to Yoda or Mace. Given his teacher himself wasn't even a match for those 2.
That said, the Council Members he came across in TCW usually resorted to Force attacks to defeat him.
Well TCW was more in line with ROTS tbh. And less in line with the OCW/LOE.
Filoni would always refer to Mace's ROTS line where he states "Grievous is a coward who will always run."
That said, Filoni did always have Grievous give Obi-Wan trouble, and even had GG defeating Kenobi in the unfinished episodes, and challenging Maul in SOD.
Tbh it's Legends continuity that was a mess. They just wanted to make more EU material coming from numerous different authors, with tons of contradictory statements, and no proper Canon panel in place until after tons of damage was already done.
There's just no way they were going to do that just to appease a few fans.
Palpatine's resurrection totally screws with the first 6 movies. Lucas himself always contradicted or outright ignored Legends at will.
Disney/Lucasfilm already Had To include Episodes 1-6 and TCW as Canon (probably part of the deal with Lucas). So why would they cuff their hands further with all the Legends stuff, when even Lucas always ignored that.
That would just make little sense, but like I said, at least they've taken it on themselves to make sure all EU going forward counts. Something Lucas never did.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 17th, 2016 at 10:20 AM
Well, I'm kind of discussing Legends continuity here. I'm talking about how Filoni ruined it.
Which is true, but Grievous holds his own against the best of the Jedi even without them. And Grievous occasionally challenges Dooku himself prior to the LoE criticisms, as the Count himself notes. It's certainly not unorthodoxy and intimidation which allow him to do that.
Dooku is a match for Mace, and he could've well been referring to them as well, since he does mention them as being among the Jedi that Grievous can't defeat or would have trouble with(when he makes the criticisms in LoE).
Yeah, it's interesting to see him nearly beat Obi-Wan, yet struggle with Ahsoka and Nahdar at times.
Well, RotS kind of goes both ways. The novel especially has Grievous in line with OCW/LoE, and I believe the junior novel does as well. The film has Grievous not looking so deadly, indeed. Which is, of course, an affront to his character's abilities as they were originally intended.
Which doesn't exactly align with his original conceptualization either.
Any large continuity with so many writers eventually gets out of hand and involves retcons and discrepancies. The new Canon won't be free of that, either.
Filoni demonstrates his ignorance/disregard of Legends (and even Canon) continuity on numerous occasions. The implementation of Ahsoka, the way Yoda forces Ahsoka on Anakin, the way Anakin and Obi-Wan keep getting separated or keep fighting Dooku & Grievous, the fact that he had Adi Gallia killed by Savage instead of Grievous, etc. TOR and TCW were some huge offenders that damaged continuity significantly and introduced some really stupid concepts. Some of the early Legacy era was also a problem.
I will agree with you that Lucas made some laughable judgment calls too, though.
30 years after RotJ is about 25 years after DE. It's not necessary to refer to Palpatine. And the rest of your examples were already debunked. It's not impossible - as I said, there were gaps in the Legends timeline that could've easily been filled. It's just that they decided to do the revamp because the timeline was now a mess with all of the retcons. And guess which sources have the most retcons/ignorance of continuity? TOR and TCW.
Last edited by SunRazer on Aug 17th, 2016 at 10:25 AM
__________________ ''It is necessary that I should die for my people; but my spirit will rise from the grave and the world will know that I was right." The Almighty Führer
He didn't though. Because he was never following it in the first place. He was only following Lucas, who also never followed Legends. In fact I'd be surprised if Lucas ever even read an entire Legends novel.
That's too much of an undertaking for 1 man who created this whole Universe. It can only work with a Canon panel workign on this from the beginning, which is what they've done with the new Disney Lucasfilm Canon. And as you've mentioned there will still be contradictions and mistakes.
Sure, but he was never truly a match for Dooku. And therefore shouldn't be for Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Anakin either.
Well he did beat Nahdar, and would have beaten Ahsoka had she not escaped. Bear in mind Filoni has Ahsoka challenging Vader.
He's not just nearly beaten, but has actually beaten Kenobi in the unfinished Kyber crystal episodes. And he was only beaten by Maul and Ventress on Dark Side nexuses.
So like I said, apart from the Big 5 I mentioned above, TCW has at least kept consistent with the idea that Grievous is capable of beating any Jedi.
Yes, the novel gives Grievous much more credit than the film does.
If Lucas didn't agree with that concept then it wouldn't matter.
Addressed above.
Again, how can Filoni (or Lucas) ruin Legends when he was never following it in the first place?
It was the fault of Legends to try and incorporate every bit of Canon into it's continuity, including all the Prequels and TCW, despite knowing full well they were completely ignoring Legends.
They wouldn't be as free though. I mean the Jedi Order wasn't wiped out 25 years after DE was it? So TFA wouldn't have been possible (not that that would be such a bad thing Lol).
And they obviously want to benefit from their own novels and comics in that time period, and keep the whole history of the Galaxy up until that point a mystery.
Again, why would they keep Legends canon just to satisfy a few fans. When Lucas himself never did? Would make no sense tbh.
Aug 16th, 2016 01:37 AM
