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Iron Fist vs. Midnighter
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Sharivan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Yep.

The doors comes from the Carrier itself.

However both versions of Midnighter stomps Danny.


The only Door that might be a problem Midnighter can't even use without Jenny Quantum, and the ones he can use are easily dealt with.

Nope, and by virtue of the fact you frequent comicvine I am going to go ahead and say you're not entirely unbiased either.

It also explains a lot about your debating style. Now I know where it comes from.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 11:52 AM
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
The only Door that might be a problem Midnighter can't even use without Jenny Quantum, and the ones he can use are easily dealt with.

Nope, and by virtue of the fact you frequent comicvine I am going to go ahead and say you're not entirely unbiased either.

It also explains a lot about your debating style. Now I know where it comes from.


You don't get it...

Midnighter can use doors...

That's just the way the doors are used in the scan that have been posted isn't the feat of Midnighter, this particular way to use them has a precise context which Midnighter can't replicate.

Rofl. I'm totally unbiased. If you paid more attention to what I've said you should know it.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 11:57 AM
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Sharivan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
You don't get it...

Midnighter can use doors...

That's just the way the doors are used in the scan that have been posted isn't the feat of Midnighter, this particular way to use them has a precise context which Midnighter can't replicate.

Rofl. I'm totally unbiased. If you paid more attention to what I've said you should know it.


You said Midnighter would win despite not having anything that he needs in order to do this. You're disguising it as an attempt at being reasonable while at the same time not being reasonable.

I say the bias because comicvine is notoriously infamous for this sort of thing on the OBD, Spacebattles, and what have you.

The particular kind of Door that Midnighter needs here he doesn't have, and his garden variety is much easier to take care of.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 12:08 PM
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
You said Midnighter would win despite not having anything that he needs in order to do this. You're disguising it as an attempt at being reasonable while at the same time not being reasonable.

I say the bias because comicvine is notoriously infamous for this sort of thing on the OBD, Spacebattles, and what have you.

The particular kind of Door that Midnighter needs here he doesn't have, and his garden variety is much easier to take care of.


1) Danny has nothing to counter the battle computer.

2) I'm not comicvine so stop immediately your hasty generalization.

3) I've never made a single argument about Midnighter using a door in this thread so stop with strawman.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 12:17 PM
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Sharivan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) Danny has nothing to counter the battle computer.


Besides the fact Danny is faster, tougher, stronger? Specifically has fooled telepathy and the like with his drunken style

quote:
2) I'm not comicvine so stop immediately your hasty generalization.


Going by your debating style? Yeah, you are.

1) The use of databooks.

2) The casual dismissal of nearly any and all feats.

3) The positively brain melting opinions.

The list goes on.

quote:
3) I've never made a single argument about Midnighter using a door in this thread so stop with strawman.


Oh, really?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Well, he can ask the Carrier to make a door thanks to their mechanical telepathic link but anyway with Midnighter physical stats, combat experience and battle computer Danny is toasted.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
You don't get it...

Midnighter can use doors...

That's just the way the doors are used in the scan that have been posted isn't the feat of Midnighter, this particular way to use them has a precise context which Midnighter can't replicate.

Rofl. I'm totally unbiased. If you paid more attention to what I've said you should know it.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 12:25 PM
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
[B]Besides the fact Danny is faster, tougher, stronger?


Based on ?

quote:

Specifically has fooled telepathy and the like with his drunken style


That's completely irrelevant against Midnighter's battle computer as it calculate every possible scenario.

quote:

Going by your debating style? Yeah, you are.


Everybody don't debate the same way on comicvine, you should know if you wasn't a rookie.

quote:

1) The use of databooks.


Canon sources:

There is no problems in using Databooks (the OHOTMU for Marvel and the Secret Files & Origins) as they are canon to both their Universes. They are official informations given by Marvel and DC , so the reader can understand their characters better.

Same stuff with the Datafiles, which are part of some stories like Dark Reign, Storming Asgard, etc...


Non-Canon sources:

Everything not published by the main company itself which gives unreliable information besides the interviews like Marvel Fact Files, Eaglemoss Chess Collection Books, DC & Marvel Encyclopedias, etc...

Those are not canon and should not be taken seriously.

quote:

2) The casual dismissal of nearly any and all feats.


I didn't dismiss any feats, I replaced them in their proper context instead.

quote:

3) The positively brain melting opinions.

The list goes on.


LOL.

Random Comment.


quote:

Oh, really?


A) I was speaking with Darksaint85 how the doors are managed as a power for Midnighter, I didn't make a claim about Midnighter using them in this thread.

B) Same stuff here.

You should pay more attention.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 01:14 PM
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leonidas
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not even sure the doors would be necessary if this is pre-nu midnighter (i know less about nu nighter). with his computerized scenarios, danny would be in trouble even without the doors....


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 02:52 PM
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
not even sure the doors would be necessary if this is pre-nu midnighter (i know less about nu nighter). with his computerized scenarios, danny would be in trouble even without the doors....


That's my point.

The doors aren't necessary at all.

Midnighter has enough striking power and his combat skills + the computer makes him faster than Danny in combat as he can anticipate everything

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 03:19 PM
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cdtm
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Pre MN's got some nice feats, but not "that" nice.

Danny should take him. (He could take Zealot, too, imo.)


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 04:51 PM
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Sharivan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Based on ?


I already posted it on the first freaking page.

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Deflecting dozens of flechettes at once, and creating numerous afterimages.

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg

Catching a bullet with bare hands.

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

He is able to move within the time-frame of a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://imgur.com/a/TiUNn

It only takes him 0.05 seconds to charge and use his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg


quote:
That's completely irrelevant against Midnighter's battle computer as it calculate every possible scenario.


No limit fallacy.

The drunken style has worked against people who can literally know what Daniel Rand is planning to do next.

quote:
Everybody don't debate the same way on comicvine, you should know if you wasn't a rookie.


It's impossible to debate on comicvine due to the draconic, and positively asinine moderation. You could be permanently banned simply for disagreeing on something even if you provide evidence.

quote:
Canon sources:

There is no problems in using Databooks (the OHOTMU for Marvel and the Secret Files & Origins) as they are canon to both their Universes. They are official informations given by Marvel and DC , so the reader can understand their characters better.


Yes, there is problem.

As they are notoriously inconsistent and don't take into account what characters have actually even done.

quote:
Same stuff with the Datafiles, which are part of some stories like Dark Reign, Storming Asgard, etc...


Only if they adhere to what is actually seen, and stated in the story itself. They are secondary sources. That's it.

quote:
Non-Canon sources:

Everything not published by the main company itself which gives unreliable information besides the interviews like Marvel Fact Files, Eaglemoss Chess Collection Books, DC & Marvel Encyclopedias, etc...

Those are not canon and should not be taken seriously.


Interviews or questions are not reliable either. As you people such as Stan Lee saying Galactus is the strongest character in Marvel bar none, and Tom Breevort saying that Black Panther is stronger than Silver Surfer.

The writers and editors themselves can incredibly stupid.


quote:
I didn't dismiss any feats, I replaced them in their proper context instead.


No, you dimissed them and ignored context that proved you wrong whilst fixating certain statements by cutting them out of the rest of what was said.


quote:
LOL.

Random Comment.


There are people on comicvine who think Thor from the MCU is more powerful than Thor from 616.

quote:
A) I was speaking with Darksaint85 how the doors are managed as a power for Midnighter, I didn't make a claim about Midnighter using them in this thread.


You specifically stated that he can use the rectangular variety in an attempt rebuke me. When I never said he couldn't. Then said he so much more powerful that he doesn't even need Door.

When he does.

quote:
B) Same stuff here.

You should pay more attention. [/B]


This coming from the guy who ignores the mountains of evidence that I provide.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
That's my point.

The doors aren't necessary at all.

Midnighter has enough striking power and his combat skills + the computer makes him faster than Danny in combat as he can anticipate everything


The Doors are necessary, and what I was saying was that you were bringing them when I never said that Midnighter couldn't use the garden variety.

That's not the same as speed. You need to actually be able to move fast enough to react to what you see is going to happen. Otherwise, the only thing it does is give you a glimpse of your own death before it's already too late to do anything about it.

As I already noted Iron Fist can counter people who literally know what he is planning to do next.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 06:28 PM
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Also, I can't forget this.

He catches a bullet here after Brenda tries to kill herself. Do keep in mind since the gun was right next to her head? That means the timeframe he had to cross the distance had to be incredibly tiny.

Iron Fist: The Living Weapon #12

http://imgur.com/a/Fup9N

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 06:40 PM
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Zack M
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
not even sure the doors would be necessary if this is pre-nu midnighter (i know less about nu nighter). with his computerized scenarios, danny would be in trouble even without the doors....


I agree.

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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 06:58 PM
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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 06:59 PM
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carver9
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Ironfist 8/10


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On ignore list: Darksaint

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 07:53 PM
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Zack M
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Mids ko's him in less than a second.


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 07:59 PM
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Sharivan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
Mids ko's him in less than a second.


Iron Fist punches his head off in less than 0.06 seconds.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 08:36 PM
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RealityWarper
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sharivan
I already posted it on the first freaking page.

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Deflecting dozens of flechettes at once, and creating numerous afterimages.

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg

Catching a bullet with bare hands.

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

He is able to move within the time-frame of a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://imgur.com/a/TiUNn

It only takes him 0.05 seconds to charge and use his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg


Unfortunately.

All the scans that you are spamming in threads are irrelevant and worse than that misinterpreted.

You didn't post a single feat that could turn the tables in Iron Fist's favor.

quote:

No limit fallacy.

The drunken style has worked against people who can literally know what Daniel Rand is planning to do next.


Mr X low-grade telepathy is far from being close to Midnighter's computer...

If there is a "no limit fallacy" it is yours for bringing up the Drunken Style as a possible way to counter Midnighter's battle computer.

quote:

It's impossible to debate on comicvine due to the draconic, and positively asinine moderation. You could be permanently banned simply for disagreeing on something even if you provide evidence.


You are mistaking Comic Vine with other forums.

quote:

Yes, there is problem.

As they are notoriously inconsistent and don't take into account what characters have actually even done.


The only inconsistency here is your personal interpretation of Iron Fist's abilities.

quote:

Only if they adhere to what is actually seen, and stated in the story itself. They are secondary sources. That's it.


They are a legit source of information whatever you like it or not.

quote:

Interviews or questions are not reliable either. As you people such as Stan Lee saying Galactus is the strongest character in Marvel bar none, and Tom Breevort saying that Black Panther is stronger than Silver Surfer.

The writers and editors themselves can incredibly stupid.


You know better than the writers and editors, right ?


quote:

No, you dimissed them and ignored context that proved you wrong whilst fixating certain statements by cutting them out of the rest of what was said.


*sigh*

quote:

There are people on comicvine who think Thor from the MCU is more powerful than Thor from 616.


Completely irrelevant.

quote:

You specifically stated that he can use the rectangular variety in an attempt rebuke me. When I never said he couldn't. Then said he so much more powerful that he doesn't even need Door.

When he does.


The doors are not needed to beat Iron Fist.

quote:

This coming from the guy who ignores the mountains of evidence that I provide.


This coming from the guy whom will not agree with someone using hyperbolic statements and cognitive bias as evidence.

quote:


The Doors are necessary, and what I was saying was that you were bringing them when I never said that Midnighter couldn't use the garden variety.


Necessary to what ?


quote:

That's not the same as speed. You need to actually be able to move fast enough to react to what you see is going to happen. Otherwise, the only thing it does is give you a glimpse of your own death before it's already too late to do anything about it.


Useless attempt at paraphrasing an argument.

Danny Rand has zero feat that could make us believes that he is too fast for Midnighter to be tagged as both fight at human speeds.

quote:

As I already noted Iron Fist can counter people who literally know what he is planning to do next.


Rofl.

Nope.

You overplayed a Kung-Fu Drunken Style in order to make Iron Fist look stronger and have a mean to counter Midnighter's battle computer.

Which isn't the case and you should know it if you actually had read a single comic book with Midnighter.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 08:44 PM
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Sharivan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Unfortunately.

All the scans that you are spamming in threads are irrelevant and worse than that misinterpreted.


No, they're not and you were the one butchering the context. As I made clear in the Kenshiro Gauntlet.

Not only that you added context that wasn't there. Such as Danny's punch only destroying the guidance system of that helicarrier despite the fact this is never noted, and that Danny went through that train full of explosives. When we don't see that.

You didn't post a single feat that could turn the tables in Iron Fist's favor.

quote:
Mr X low-grade telepathy is far from being close to Midnighter's computer...

If there is a "no limit fallacy" it is yours for bringing up the Drunken Style as a possible way to counter Midnighter's battle computer.


Nope, it's not you're the one that claimed that Midnighter's battle computer can accommodate practically any and all scenarios.

That's a no limit fallacy.

I didn't say Danny's drunken style is undefeatable, and can't be predicted by anyone. Someone who has legitimate precognition instead of prediction or telepathy can defeat it.

quote:
You are mistaking Comic Vine with other forums.


No, I am not that is literally how comicvine operates. The moderators ban people at moment's notice for any sort of slight with no forewarning. Just for disagreeing with them.

quote:
The only inconsistency here is your personal interpretation of Iron Fist's abilities.


No, it's your headcanon in regards to this that's contradicted by everything we see and hear in story.

quote:
They are a legit source of information whatever you like it or not.


They are retarded no matter how you want to ignore or pretend that isn't the case. On top of being against the rules to even use to begin with.

quote:
You know better than the writers and editors, right ?


Yes, Tom Brevoort is literally that stupid that a random nerd on the internet knows more that he does.

quote:
*sigh*


That's how it is.

quote:
Completely irrelevant.


In regards to this particular topic? No. As it showcases how idiotic their community is.

quote:
The doors are not needed to beat Iron Fist.


(please log in to view the image)

quote:
This coming from the guy whom will not agree with someone using hyperbolic statements and cognitive bias as evidence.


They're not hyperbolic statements as I made clear. How in the world are specific timeframes such as "microsecond" and "0.05 seconds" hyperbolic.

How is "hundreds of megatons" and "wiping London off the wipe if it's not stopped" hyperbolic?

quote:
Necessary to what ?


They're necessary for Midnighter to defeat Iron Fist.

quote:
Useless attempt at paraphrasing an argument.

Danny Rand has zero feat that could make us believes that he is too fast for Midnighter to be tagged as both fight at human speeds.


Despite the many instances I brought up that proves you wrong. Neither fight at human speed. I mean Jesus Christ the Midnighter is a bullet-timer at least. He was able to deflect a tank shell with a kick.

Now you're undermining his abilities too?

quote:
Rofl.

Nope.

You overplayed a Kung-Fu Drunken Style in order to make Iron Fist look stronger and have a mean to counter Midnighter's battle computer.


I didn't overplay it. The drunken style specifically allows Danny to counter people who can literally know what he is thinking, and what he is planning on doing. Simply by virtue of being that unpredictable.

quote:
Which isn't the case and you should know it if you actually had read a single comic book with Midnighter.


I am not the one who said Midnighter fights at human speeds, and whilst I haven't read the entirety of the Authority I have read a few issues.

Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 09:04 PM
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DarkSaint85
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Midnighter's computer doesn't work like precog, not exactly.

(please log in to view the image)

He sees a scenario he likes (i.e. Midnighter wins). He then works backwards (OK, if I am to win, I need to break his leg. To break his leg, I need to do A, which makes him do B, and to do A, I need to make him do C etc etc). He in effect plans the entire fight out for both sides, then 'forces' the opponent to do it the way he wants.

IOW, Drunken Fist wouldn't counter it. As Danny wouldn't get the chance to use it.

With regards to the doors, all the Doc did was come up with the plan. Do people have scans of what Jenny did with her powers? How she changed it?


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 09:31 PM
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leonidas
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i think that was pretty much the only time it was really defined that way. it's not precog though, you're right. he does see every possible outcome though and can counter based on the way the scenario plays out. so while it isn't precog technically, it acts much the same way in a h2h scenario. he's not unbeatable, obviously, and fist could take him, but straight h2h wouldn't be a sure thing for fist imo. throw in the doors and i don't see him winning this. digi would know off hand some of nighter's best feats and could weigh in more definitively than i could without looking back at a bunch of my older stuff. and i'm lazy....


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Old Post Aug 22nd, 2016 09:37 PM
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