So basically you re-iterate your insult without even acknowledging the point I made.
You don't know shit. You are completely clueless about his early depiction. You thought that the fact he was scared of Superboy was a "low showing" since you believe him to be the abstract he was portrayed later to be. When in fact he was created to be an evil scientist type of character initially like I described in my earlier posts. You were stupid enough to dispute that then got mad that I called you out on it. We get it.
I like how you keep repeating that without countering my points. Again:
you ignored every bit of context in that scene. Namely, that it was never mentioned TT had any hand whatsoever in destroying those timelines, just that he arranged the GL energy to pour through the 4th dimension. And that Superman/Jaxon countered that level of energy.
everything is completely and utterly wrong. And I like how you completely diverted from the main point which was how TT was portrayed originally, but ill play along regardless.
Though I like the confidence and the condescending tone you displayed here. Lol at those last two statements, I'm very well versed with the entire Legion chronology right from the beginning of the early silver age, so you ain't teaching me shit either.
Let's get something straight before we proceed: Do you admit that you were utterly wrong about time trapper's early appearances that he was an abstract? Do you admit that he was created as an evil scientist kind of character as opposed to the abstract being you were imagining him to be (scans already posted)? Answer that first, then we'll get to the second part.
First off you do realize that the time trapper has always been revealed to be a controller even before the Crisis, right?
And either this, or the GDS is the instance which Legionnaires 3 could be considered retconning. Not all the others, lol, how could you even think that? The nature of the Legionnaires 3 revelation is ambigious since the prison in which the legion imprison TT they always imprison their villains there so there's no telling which specific instance it retconned.
But to prove that beyond all doubt.
Remember this scene which the trapper brought up in Zero Hour?
(superboy was obviously replaced in the scene due to continuity changes).
So much for claiming those were all retconned as well. And I mean... the whole Zero Hour made that quite clear. I think the overconfidence and boasting may have affected your mind to the point where you started spouting nonsense.
Conway's Odin still owned Mangog w/ Odinsword, erased the memories of all mankind and rebuilt everything after the ego-prime affair, and was said to rival Xorr who was Galactus level. Still better than Darkseid.
Darkseid, on the other hand, only displayed insane level of power in GDS which coincidentally has him absorbing other powers. I don't know how to make this more crystal clear.
Way to go to reference DOTNG which was 20 years after the crisis.
You seem awfully ignorant on the nature of things in the pre-crisis era, no wonder you overhype the shit out of them.
the ALE was locked subconsciously in the mind of 6 humans, who basically contained the information of an equation Darkseid wanted to solve. Yes, it was basically like Darkseid was unable to solve a math equation and needed the information contained in those six humans to do it, that's how it was portrayed. Except Summo iirc who managed to display abilities early on in the series.
The war between between New Genesis and Apokolips was like solar system level. Fiddler hypnotized the entire new genesis population, but sure, every random new god was on Odin's level.
First of all I like how you outright ignored this.
Your brain is not functioning properly it seems. I need to restate things a hundred times before it begins to compute something. Of course SB and Mon-El are more powerful than UB because he can only use one powerful at a time, so overall yes they are more powerful, these kind of statements are mentioned all the time it's not exactly a revelation on your part. What I'm saying however is his individual abilities which were regarded to be on par with Superboy and Mon-el, like here for instance:
I mean, you say that you are well versed in Legion continuity yet I must explain to you the most basic of things. There are many examples, Mon-El was the only one who was regarded as being able to "match" UB in strength when he went rogue in Adventure comics #316. UB also broke inertron (in #379) something which even Validus has failed to do a few dozen issues before. And neither Mon-El or Superboy could a few issues earlier, and yes I am aware that they were able to break it on other occassions, but this alone shows that his strength was up there with them. His "vision" powers (which is called penetra-vision) is even regarded as being better than Superboy's and has scanned entire planets in an instant from what I remember. If you think that his individual abilities aren't in the same league as SB or Mon-El you're fooling yourself. You may even find claims which suggest that he doesn't, but it would hold as much weight as Mon-El saying he's stronger than Superboy when their entire history paints a picture where they're pretty much equal.
He wasn't amped or anything, he went beserk mode, and I mainly mentioned it since I vaguely recalled that in that comic Ultra-Boy was definitely shown to be on Superboy's level in terms of individual abilities
Oh god. How you blindly jump in to protect your precious Superboy. And Mon-El was stated to be stronger than SB in adventure comics #339, how about that? Are you starting to see my point that individual statements are irrelevant when we look at the bigger picture aka what they're generally portrayed to be. You're basically proving my point by posting those scans.
He doesn't have to. By virtue of being a cosmic being, it automatically takes away the supposedly "low showing" from Odin. The ant aliens is a low feat since they're not cosmic.
"not since Darkseid have I seen such power" (white witch who witnessed him in GDS)
1) This is clearly not a reference to GDS. no sir.
2) it could have been more. Since WW not witnessing a power like Darkseid till now, could mean that she witnessed a power even greater.
I think Infinite Man may as well be on TOAA's level. LT for sure though.
I actually agree with this and even acknowledged it. Not sure how it even remotely changes anything though?
Oh I acknowledge it alright. Its just shit so no reason to give it anymore consideration.
Haha, you're so adorable when you try to act tough.
Of course its a low showing for a Controller to be scared of Superboy. A guardian clone smacked the shit out of Legion.
And you are stupid enough to think it was the real time trapper.
So you ignored my point as well. Why isn't GL an abstract level being by that feat?
Hahaha, oh the irony.
I'm not trying either. You are just providing me the proof of your stupidity on a platter.
And are you admitting that you were completely wrong about no official retcon of Time Trapper's power?
Do you admit that your comparison of Pulsar Stargrave to TT was just a red herring?
Yes, All new collector's edition 55. But the scan is to show that there were two time trappers and the pre crisis one was always a controller and his scenes do not apply to real Time Trapper.
It flat out states that the TT imprisoned on Takron Galtos was controller.
There were a lot of time fluctuations in Zero Hour. Nothing in there is concrete.
Trapper himself informs Legion how they mistook his dupes for him.
Face it, you ****ed up saying Trapper's power was never changed.
You are just a simpleton at this point. Zero hour was a time where there were quite a few time anomalies. Like Cosmic Boy being Trapper by learning magic in Mordru's libraray and Superboy coming back to life.
It was flat out retconned that Legion never encountered real Time Trapper before Legionnaires 3,
Those were not amps. He was recovering his power and even after all those power he absorbed he realized his powers had waned over the years.
You are flat out refusing to acknowledge that he was weakened in the first place.
Complaining that the bios were the only thing inconsistent.
And this is not computing for you, the comics were inconsistent upon how they viewed the three characters.
Hence, Mon-El was equal, stronger and weaker than Superboy under the same writer.
The bios wer not the only inconsistent and using that as an excuse to wave away the bios is pathetic at best.
Superboy also said that Mon-El was stronger than himself in Superboy 250. But this isn't computing for you for some reason.
Both comics and bios were inconsistent regarding strength comparison between Mon-el, Superboy and Ultra Boy. That means using that as a crutch to invalid the Trapper bio is pathetic.
Its in the very same panel from where you cropped the earlier scan.
Oh god. How you blindly jump in to protect your precious Superboy.
Haha, what? I'm merely showing you how the comics were inconsistent as well.
You are doofus if you think it was to show Superboy was stronger than Mon-El.
But hey "Ultra Boy's bio shows he was weaker than Superboy. So all bios are invalid." is a sound reasoning. But when I show the comics themselves being inconsistent in that, its swept aside.
No, it doesn't. Being a cosmic being doesn't means shit in comics.
And GDS Darkseid was weaker as stated by himself.
Haha, what? That's some real mental gymnastics right there.
Some real butthurt right there.
That using Ego's performance against Galactus to somehow boost Mangog? Pretty desperate move. Twelve Deathwings nearly killed Galactus when one of them was killed by Rom.
I think that you have taken the scene so grossly out of context that you're running out of words to say. From the time when you posted that scene, you were unable to counter my arguments instead resorting to ad hominems.
And you're just outright pathetic. I'm not even trying to put up a tough act, I'm just expressing frustration towards your brain's inability to compute. If you even have one. I'm starting to think you're just a spam bot programmed to wank the shit out of DC characters.
Now see, these kind of statements confirm my suspicions that you know shit about the character. Because even if you believe it's a controller (which he isn't) TT was never portayed as a super powered being in that era; he was an evil scientist type of character. Ive already posted all the relevant scans and yet you keep ignoring them. Here's a scan which I forgot to post earlier.
are you blind or something? The explanation is right there in the part you quoted:
you ignored every bit of context in that scene. Namely, that it was never mentioned TT had any hand whatsoever in destroying those timelines, just that he arranged the GL energy to pour through the 4th dimension. And that Superman/Jaxon countered that level of energy.
You mean the controller retcon? Ive referenced it myself from the earliest posts in this thread. I said that his overall power depiction did increase over time, but there was no official instance which increased his power, that's what I said and that's what it is. See below.
Answering a question with a question? Alrighty then, ill play along though...
No because they were the same threat level. Your turn now:
Do you admit that he was created as an evil scientist kind of character as opposed to the abstract being you were imagining him to be (scans already posted)?
Not this shit again. so you found yourself an excuse because of "zero hour fluctuations". But alright let's shut you down for good shall we?
This is an official retelling of the Legion early events (note this retelling is post-Legionnaires 3)
Both of those reference the early adventure comics instances regarding the time trapper. As you can see, he wasn't a controller there. But there's more....
Cosmic Boy mini (also after Legionnaires 3) associates the time trapper, and not the controller, with the iron curtain of time:
Also, let's not forget that Glorith was reduced to protoplasm by the trapper in the early Adventure comics issue, and this the reason behind her rage against him and why she replaced him and killed him after Mon-el depowered him severely. The Adv. comics issue was even referenced in a retelling in v4:
The only instance which can be attributed to TT being a controller is in GDS or the one that I posted and that's it. Claiming otherwise is baseless.
Also, regarding the controller instance, let's see my posts on page 1 shall we:
As you can see ive referenced it myself, yet you're acting like it was some sort of debate-changing revelation
You are so hilariously misinterpreting his dialogue at the end of GDS.
I already admitted that he was depowered initally, you're just refusing to accept the four amps he received later on.
Again, this is crystal clear. His power has waned over the millennium (thousand years between 20th and 30th century) after which he started absorbing power.
where did I say Odin is an abstract again? Anyway I acknowledged that he had lows under that writer but ive also referenced his highs which are much better than Darkseid's
I dare you to find a better feat for Darkseid outside GDS than the three ive referenced for Odin under Conway (his least powerful depiction by your own admission).
I mean, even if we try to make it unfair and give PC Darkseid a chance, he'd still lose.
Referencing those two goes against your argument because
1) I don't remember anything impressive DS did in those two series.
2) Both are non canon and I can prove it.
This is complete and utter stupidity tbh.
What do I care what happened 20 years after the crisis when we're debating pre-Crisis? I mean, by virtue of them being pre-Crisis versions, this makes all post-Crisis things unusable. Don't come at me with the "they weren't affected by the crisis" bullshit again; the point I'm making should be quite clear.
the difference is, they weren't aiming to destroy the city but rather each other. In the New Genesis/Apokolips case, the goal was to destroy the other planet/civilization.
And btw we're talking the entire New Genesis/Apokolips along with every "Galaxy level" god and technology they had at their disposal, they were going all out.
While being in Odin-sleep, an important detail you failed to mention but ok
I'm not sure why this took so long. Yes, because on panel there is inconsistency you can't favor one instance over another when their history regards them as equal, that's my point. However, what you're missing here is the fact that the bio's job is to generalize the power level, meaning that the bio should be the one which should state that they're equals in general (in terms of individual abilities, which the bio specifically states it's not). I mean, do you even know how bios work?
I mean holy shit is this simple enough to understand.
Also, as I said before it wasn't the only instance in the bios (or did you think I was bluffing?). I recall vaguely the errors in the powers/abilities sections, but another example would be colossal boy who was stated that it was never shown if he could achieve a height greater than 7 or so meters when he had previously dwarfed a small city.
It's perfectly in-context.
It's the exact same wording when Superman let go of his inhibitions in the parasite instance around that same time. It was first stated that his powers were "increased" (because of beserk mode) when in fact he merely let go of his inhibitions (this was even stated in a later letter's page) just like UB did here.
But I like how you keep diverting your point from the statement which is right in the scan. Anyway we've sealed this part of the debate so we don't need to prolong it.
It may not mean much in terms of feats, but it lessens the low showings. Being (indirectly) overpowered by a featless cosmic being isn't that bad when you think about it.
This is just a waste of space and of time, so what do you keep spouting this baseless stupidity?
I could dismantle your out of context Deathwings instance but I don't want to prolong the debate unnecessarily. Point is, I agree with you that Galactus was weaker back then but he was still god-like and well above PC Darkseid. It becomes clear as day when you read how the characters were portrayed back then, there isn't even a margin for comparison between them.
Last edited by operator616 on Aug 31st, 2016 at 07:07 PM
Haha, coming from you? Cute. Tell me more about how Ultra Boy wasn't amped.
And I'm thinking you are just a bot that is activated by "Pre crisis" words in a thread to just lowball the shit out of them.
Ask me if I give a shit about what you think.
Yes, which was retconned away in legionnaires 3. I like how you keep ignoring that while harping your own scans.
The controller again.
(please log in to view the image)
And you are simply not getting the point that comparison between Darkseid and TT only happened in post-crisis era where Time Trapper was retconned in being the avatar of Entropy.
Are you an idiot or something?
So that makes Superman/Jaxon and GL abstract level beings. After all it has been established that every future timeline contains an universe and GL's energy destroyed every single one of them and Superman/Jaxon countered that level of energy?
Haha, still clinging to that? No, it didn't increase gradually. He went from being a controller to a lord of Entropy.
No, they were not. Stargrave himself admitted that Mordru was above him in power and that's why he needed Legion's help.
And Mordru was a peer of TT as established in LOSH v4 annual 1 where both Mordru and Glorith with power of TT stalemated and drained away most of their powers.
Superboy even said that they couldn't do it together and Stargrave did it by a wave of his hand.
He is not some weak feeb you are trying to lowball into.
It really doesn't matters as the Time Trapper with which darkseid was compared was always avatar of Entropy as established in Legionnaires 3 and LOSH never met the real TT before that.
Oh do shut up. Your nonsense is already aggravating enough.
That's from Who's who in LOSH which explicitly stated that all the subsequent encounters of LOSH with TT was a clone.
How hard is it for you to understand what a retcon is?
Of course he was.
Why are you so obsessed with him creating Curtain anyway? Earlier it was from a machine but then it was retconned as created from his own power.
That doesn't means he was some scientist when he was being compared with Darkseid. It was always the Controller who had the bad showings.
You going anywhere with this?
Oh you poor fool. Its all the scenes in pre crisis history. Explicitly stated.
Yes, you are saying only that instance was where TT was a controller. Which is blatantly false.
Of course it was. You tried to lowball Darkseid being referenced as a peer to Time Trapper as if Stargrave being called a peer to Controller TT as hyperbole.
And you are so hilariously taking his dialogue of "I'm fullfilled...for now." as a proof that he was amped out of context, its not even funny anymore.
Except they were not amps and only gave him his full power back as he thought but even then he was weaker than previous.
No, they are not. Let me know when Odin oneshots someone like Mon-El in coma. He couldn't even beat Thanos after twenty+ pages of fight.
Oneshotting Mon-el into coma, breaking Brainiac 5's force field which not even Validus and Time Trapper and Infinite Man could and onshotting Mordru like a feeb. There you go.
Haha no. He would just drain his power like he did to Mordru. Even someone as weak as Zelia did that.
This isn't impressive?
I know.
No, your whole post is.
Retcons bro. it all makes sense when you look at the whole picture.
If you are so offended by them not being affected by crisis, send a mail to DC.
Don't come to me with your whining.
And where is that stated?
And where is that stated?
So was Odin and he couldn't even destroy the city with his all out attack.
Just like you forgot Ultra Boy being amped. But ok.
Yes, i do. And even comics support that Darkseid and Trapper were peers. Trapper himself stated that when the LOSH stopped Darkseid, he considered them able to stop him. Glorith stated that only Darkseid could control daxamites. White Witch stated that an amped Infinite Man had power level compared to Darkseid.
All things point out that Darkseid was a peer to Time Trapper and Infinite Man.
Yes, and I wonder why are you so butthurt to not understand that?
Yes, we established that the bios were faulty in some areas. But completely discarding bios backed by comics themselves? Get the **** out with your butthurt.
Hahaha, no it isn't. Brainy gave him drugs to appear under madness and it boosted his strength.
This wasn't about letting go inhibitions. You are now just making shit up. But keep digging that hole.
Heck, Mordru was making dead rise over entire galaxy by a single spell and giving them powers. Can't see Odin or Galactus able to replicate that level of power.
Show me proof that the early adventure comics were retconned into controller. Ive already posted proof stating the exact opposite.
And what the hell does your scan have to do with anything? This is the TT controller stating that one of his races unleashed the sun eater which killed ferro lad. A pivotal point in legion history.
You're literally just randomly posting shit now.
Why are you outright ignoring blatant evidence? Ive proved that he was weak as shit in his early appearances, he was an evil scientist type of character, it was stated on panel, and it was shown on panel. I mean, what more do you want?
you are a hypocrite. You were the one who initially said that all stargrave had was lip service, while I was the one who referenced his feats of sealng dimensional warps and handling the legion.
Then you go on and post his feats and claim that I called him a "week feeb". I don't even......
Already addressed the first two.
I didn't understand what you're trying to say here.
You're saying that as if Thanos and Mon-El are equals.
And those just, coincidentally, happen to occur in GDS. Where he was not even at full power.
Zelia is not weak by any measure, While he was imprisoned from what I recall. Odin previously has defeated all the dark gods and erased the memory of it from all of Asgard. Zelia merged all the dark gods into one whom Odin dissipated. Mordru's magic has been drained by the white witch on the other hand (not even mentioning his defeats at the hands of Superboy or even non-top tier legionnaires holding their own against him).
Figured as much. But if you read the scans you'll realize he was using a technological device.
This is after all the same series where Darkseid was struggling against Red tornado and other individual JLAers from what I remember. Also it's a continuation from the Hunger Dogs novel (which was later non-canonized in multiple letter's pages across the new gods comics) where he was expelled from Apokolips by a freaking rebellion and was implied to be unable to survive his planet's destruction. Like I said, referencing it does you more harm than good. But I understand, you're desperate to find any showings apart from GDS and are starting to just reference random non canon shit instead.
I'm still waiting on what he did in DC challenge though. Even in these non canon comics series you must realize that DS was never portrayed as god-like as your imagining him to be, same thing in the Kirby New Gods/Mr Miracle/Forever people era. The only thing that you could mention from DS which comes even close to Odin is GDS and you know it. We may disagree on whether GDS DS was amped or not, but even you cannot help but think why GDS is the only instance where DS can be compared to Odin. And the answer is pretty simple: His standard portrayal is nowhere near. But again: Believe what you wish.
Jesus Christ how hard can this be?
The thread specifies pre-crisis Darkseid, thus everything post-crisis is inapplicable.
But ok let's follow your great and mighty logic and see where it gets us.
Morrison retconned all DS's previous appearances into mere lesser projections. Thus PC DS stomps! because pre-Crisis DS was retconned into being a small part of a bigger whole. This is as stupid as it gets. The point is crystal clear but no, you must find some twisted explanation for it.
No surprise there though, your ignorance on the nature of pre-Crisis things is quite telling.
mad UB = uninhibited UB. But I don't care enough to debate this point; ive already argued it longer than I wanted to. And the intial point was something else entirely. But straw man arguments are always to be expected from you.
Oh now we have established that bios are faulty. I see, I see.
The difference is I don't quote parts of your posts just to spout some bs. I only did that a few times to strike back at you but never to initiate it.
Not sure what you mean.
Ok, this is quite an improvement from the horribly out of context deathwings instance but still not good enough.
Galactus was weakened and battled Ego previously.
Anything else you want clarified?
Well setting aside you ignoring all the evidence and all that....
So Odin is a gnat compared to PC Darkseid? And to Mordru as well? Let me emphasize this more, a gnat!?
Already posted and got ignored as everything else.
Another prime example of why you should just stop debating about PC characters which you know nothing about.
Dr Fate was significantly depowered ever since the early golden age. This is, after all, the same Dr Fate who was beaten by the shining night, Dr who or just a random giant (not to mention 2 random thugs). He couldn't affect immaterial beings and had a horrible weakness in his lungs. He was more of a physical powerhouse than a magician at that point. The only time where his full powers returned (and even that was retconned later on) was when he faced the Spectre in All-Star squadron which takes place in the golden age but a bit after his depowerment.
Ownage of the highest order. This is how abhi responds to all naysayers. He makes ridiculous points and then proceeds to insult because he can't refute the truth. If it makes you feel any better no one takes abhi seriously.
That to show you the fact that TT was always Controller at that point.
If only you could read.
So I take it, you do not have any counter? Concession accepted.
Why are you outright ignoring that Darkseid was compared to the Entropy avatar version of Time Trapper and earlier showings do not matter in such comparison as it was always a controller in those stories?
And yet you dismissed Darkseid compared to TT by saying "even stargrave was compared to TT in those days."
KMC Community Forums
Aug 27th, 2016 06:08 AM
everything is completely and utterly wrong. And I like how you completely diverted from the main point which was how TT was portrayed originally, but ill play along regardless.
