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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Ren or Vader; Choose wisely


Who do you prefer ?
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Kylo Ren 9 19.57%
Darth Vader 37 80.43%
Total: 46 votes 100%
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Ren or Vader; Choose wisely
Started by: quanchi112

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Petrus
Debonaire Member

Registered: Sep 2013
Location: Lost in space


 

For now, Vader is the clear choice here.


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Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 05:43 PM
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DarthDuelist9
Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2016
Location: Atollon


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Petrus
For now, Vader is the clear choice here.


In terms of combative prowess absolutely but he isn't stomping , not even close.

Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 05:55 PM
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Deronn Solo
King Yami

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: The Astral World


 

lal @ DD9 thinking his arguments hold up against scrutiny.


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Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 06:02 PM
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Rebel95
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: US


 

As of now, Vader easily. But that could change by the end of the trilogy.

Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 06:20 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Speculating? Everything I said was based on actual evidence besides Luke obtaining knowledge of the classic lightsaber forms but that hardly does anything to my entire argument. Kylo's crude and unstable lightsaber is confirmed by the cast of TFA to be because of his own conflicted personality, not because he lacks knowledge.
Yes, speculation, you've raised no proof that Luke possessed comprehensive knowledge of the Jedi fighting arts, and would have been able to pass that down to Kylo, nor has Kylo done anything to suggest he is a match for one the most skilled Sith in history. That simple. And Kylo's crude and unstable weapon reflects the fact he doesn't know how to build a frikken lightsaber, or to quote the TFA Visual Dictionary, "suggests construction by an inexperienced hand." But it's his cruder "primitive" fighting style that speaks volumes. thumb up
quote:
And Ahsoka is no Darth Vader, what is your point? Luke actually studied the Force and Jedi traditions in genersl to a greater extent then Anakin by the time of TFA. You bringing up feats from Ahsoka isn't really usable against Kylo since he lacks those kind of feats.
My point is friend that we can't expect Kylo to achieve the same level of talent as Luke, who possessed the potential of the Chosen One, Ahsoka's feats speak for themselves. Nor are Force traditions relevant to lightsaber combat.

And of course Tano's feats are usable against Kylo, it places the burden or proof on you to demonstrate he is a match for them, so far so unsuccessful.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
In terms of combative prowess absolutely but he isn't stomping , not even close.
An all-out Vader would win comfortably, though it wouldn't necessarily be a stomp.


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Last edited by Beniboybling on Sep 2nd, 2016 at 06:34 PM

Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 06:23 PM
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DarthDuelist9
Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2016
Location: Atollon


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, speculation, you've raised no proof that Luke possessed comprehensive knowledge of the Jedi fighting arts, and would have been able to pass that down to Kylo, nor has Kylo done anything to suggest he is a match for one the most skilled Sith in history. That simple. And Kylo's crude and unstable weapon reflects the fact he doesn't know how to build a frikken lightsaber, or to quote the TFA Visual Dictionary, "suggests construction by an inexperienced hand." But it's his cruder "primitive" fighting style that speaks volumes. thumb upMy point is friend that we can't expect Kylo to achieve the same level of talent as Luke, who possessed the potential of the Chosen One, Ahsoka's feats speak for themselves. Nor are Force traditions relevant to lightsaber combat.

And of course Tano's feats are usable against Kylo, it places the burden or proof on you to demonstrate he is a match for them, so far so unsuccessful.An all-out Vader would win comfortably, though it wouldn't necessarily be a stomp.


Like I said, it doesn't influence my argument in general. Kylo just hasn't been put in a situation like Ahsoka ik Season 2 to prove himself but that doesn't mean he can't. He's inexperienced in terms of lightsaber building? Now that definitely means that he's a bad combatant. How do you know his fightingstyle is primitive and what does it matter he isn't as talented as Luke? His talent still outsptrips that of Ahsoka and so does his amount of training. It's Jedi traditions, Jedi history and Jedi secrets, that can include anything ranging from combat to spiritual approach of the Force.

Like I said previously in my comment, Kylo hasn't been put against the same opponents Ahsoka has, but that doesn't mean he can't perform similarly or better. That's why I compare their training, potential, ...

My general argument comes down to the fact that Kylo has every single thing in his favor, yes even training. It means jack shit that he isn't trained in the traditional sense of fighting, it didn't help Vader against Luke nor is it going to help Ahsoka against Kylo because like in Luke against Vader, Kylo is the one who possesses the bigger potential, better connection to the Force and even the amount of training by a more knowledgeable master then Ahsoka's.

Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 06:55 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

EDIT: Ah what the hell, I'll make a final effort.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Like I said, it doesn't influence my argument in general.
Uh-huh, Ahsoka > Ren as a duelist, that's the point of contention here.
quote:
Kylo just hasn't been put in a situation like Ahsoka ik Season 2 to prove himself but that doesn't mean he can't.
The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate he can.
quote:
He's inexperienced in terms of lightsaber building? Now that definitely means that he's a bad combatant.
It reflects his inexperience in general yes, this may well be the first lightsaber he's ever handled.
quote:
How do you know his fightingstyle is primitive
Because J.J. described it in that way and its visibly crude.
quote:
and what does it matter he isn't as talented as Luke?
It matters because it makes your comparison to Luke irrelevant.
quote:
His talent still outsptrips that of Ahsoka
In regards to lightsaber combat you still haven't proven that.
quote:
and so does his amount of training.
You haven't proven this either.
quote:
It's Jedi traditions, Jedi history and Jedi secrets, that can include anything ranging from combat to spiritual approach of the Force.
I'm not interested it what you think it might involve, I'm asking for proof, not assumptions.
quote:
Like I said previously in my comment, Kylo hasn't been put against the same opponents Ahsoka has, but that doesn't mean he can't perform similarly or better.
Which again, it's down to you to prove. Regardless this only makes him inexperienced.
quote:
That's why I compare their training, potential, ...
And there is no evidence that Kylo's lightsaber training was as good as Ahsoka's.
quote:
My general argument comes down to the fact that Kylo has every single thing in his favor, yes even training.
Aside from classical training and demonstrated skill with a lightsaber, sure.
quote:
It means jack shit that he isn't trained in the traditional sense of fighting, it didn't help Vader against Luke nor is it going to help Ahsoka against Kylo because like in Luke against Vader, Kylo is the one who possesses the bigger potential, better connection to the Force and even the amount of training by a more knowledgeable master then Ahsoka's.
Luke didn't have half those things on Vader, but OK, more importantly though there is no evidence to suggest Luke is a better lightsaber combat instructor than Anakin, one of the most talented duelists in Jedi history, with all the Jedi's combat knowledge and resources at his disposal, and its ridiculous to assume otherwise.


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Last edited by Beniboybling on Sep 2nd, 2016 at 07:48 PM

Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 07:33 PM
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EmperorSidious2
Master of Magic

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Heavens of Mystic The Birth Place


 

I would say Vader


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Old Post Sep 2nd, 2016 10:15 PM
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DarthDuelist9
Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2016
Location: Atollon


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: Ah what the hell, I'll make a final effort.

Uh-huh, Ahsoka > Ren as a duelist, that's the point of contention here.The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate he can.It reflects his inexperience in general yes, this may well be the first lightsaber he's ever handled.Because J.J. described it in that way and its visibly crude.It matters because it makes your comparison to Luke irrelevant.In regards to lightsaber combat you still haven't proven that.You haven't proven this either.I'm not interested it what you think it might involve, I'm asking for proof, not assumptions.Which again, it's down to you to prove. Regardless this only makes him inexperienced.And there is no evidence that Kylo's lightsaber training was as good as Ahsoka's.Aside from classical training and demonstrated skill with a lightsaber, sure.Luke didn't have half those things on Vader, but OK, more importantly though there is no evidence to suggest Luke is a better lightsaber combat instructor than Anakin, one of the most talented duelists in Jedi history, with all the Jedi's combat knowledge and resources at his disposal, and its ridiculous to assume otherwise.


Yes I did by comparing his knowledge, training, potential,... and Maul's confirmed to be Ahsoka's superior anyway.

He was trained in lightsaber combat by Luke and we know he started training with Luke at a young age until he was at least 24 years old while Ahsoka left the Jedi Order when she was 17. So no it's not the first lightsaber he's handled nor is he inexperienced in it.

So because his lightsaber style is 'crude' it's automatically bad? JJ's quotes aren't canon, the visual guide which confirms Kylo's training is.

The comparison isn't irrelevant, Kylo is, like Luke, more talented/has a higher potential then Ahsoka (Vader in Luke's case). We know that connection to the Force is the most important aspect when looking at lightsaber talent so yes Kylo's going to be more talentend in it than Ashoka.

It are general terms, I could as easily ask for evidence that it doesn't inlcude Jedi combat knowledge.

You also have no prove Anakin is a better teacher then Luke.... First of all Anakin himself didn't have access to all the Jedi's knowledge (e.g. the holocron vault was only for council members) nor was he ever said to have intesively studied Jedi knowledge which extended beyond his standard training at the hands of Obi-Wan. Luke's knowledge of lightsaber combat in RotJ, as inexperienced as he was, was enough for him to match Vader, like Ahsoka a classical trained duelist, and eventually defaet him so a general more knowledgeable Luke (was studied Jedi lore intensively) would definitely been able to give training to the same extent as he was given when becoming a Jedi.

So tell me why Luke isn't as good a teacher as Anakin? Because he wasn't trained in the classic forms? Didn't stop him against Vader (a classical trained fighter) so it isn't going to stop Kylo against Ahsoka. Because his isn't knowledgeable? Not really since Luke was actually confirmed to have studied old Jedi lore extensively and had something around two decades to grow after RotJ. Or maybe because Luke isn't skilled? Well he matched Vader just fine so I doubt that. Then was is going to stop him?

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2016 04:45 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Ant, what's with the newbie set up?


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2016 05:25 PM
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quanchi112
I am inevitable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yea that's a cute opinion. So is the comment of you allegedly loving life while continuously having your opinion criticized and intelligence questioned. Hence the rationalizing.
I am loving life. I love how you can't let this go.mmi love the impact I have. I am smiling ear to ear.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 01:53 AM
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quanchi112
I am inevitable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

I finally just voted. Only six of us that prefer Ren. I suspect this will change after episode eight once you sycophants and frontrunners will see more Kylo feats and events after his training was complete. I can't wait to see you weaklings change your tune.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 01:25 PM
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Zenwolf
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: United States


 

Quan, I don't see why you have to throw around petty insults for opinions.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 01:42 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

Someone hurt him.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 01:49 PM
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quanchi112
I am inevitable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Quan, I don't see why you have to throw around petty insults for opinions.
Frontrunners annoy me.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 01:54 PM
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quanchi112
I am inevitable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Someone hurt him.
Nah.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 01:54 PM
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MS Warehouse
Senior Member

Registered: May 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Someone hurt him.
everyone hurt him. He stalks those people mercilessly while he "loves life".

Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 02:10 PM
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quanchi112
I am inevitable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
everyone hurt him. He stalks those people mercilessly while he "loves life".
I do love life and no this isn't stalking. You still do not understand what stalking actually is. You are a mental midget. Kylo is better than Vader.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 02:17 PM
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MS Warehouse
Senior Member

Registered: May 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
I do love life and no this isn't stalking. You still do not understand what stalking actually is. You are a mental midget. Kylo is better than Vader.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 02:43 PM
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quanchi112
I am inevitable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Avengers base


 

Another childish and laughable response from the permabanned.


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2016 02:47 PM
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