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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful


Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful
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SunRazer
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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 07:21 AM
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DarthAnt66
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Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn, XoXaan, Remulus Dreypa, Marka Ragnos, Vitiate, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Odan-Urr, Freedon Nadd, Thon, Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Revan, the Dread Masters, Yoda, Mother Talzin, Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus, and Darth Krayt are all more knowledgeable than your rank-and-file Banite Sith. And there's obviously some entities and non-Sith-and-Jedi I'm missing.

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And now rant to me on how they're oh so knowledgeable with their Force lightning and their... well, telekinesis, and, yeah. roll eyes (sarcastic)

wink


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 5th, 2016 at 07:49 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 07:42 AM
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SunRazer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn, XoXaan, Remulus Dreypa, Marka Ragnos, Vitiate, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Odan-Urr, Freedon Nadd, Thon, Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Revan, the Dread Masters, Yoda, Mother Talzin, Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus, and Darth Krayt are all more knowledgeable than your rank-and-file Banite Sith. And there's obviously some entities and non-Sith-and-Jedi I'm missing.

And now rant to me on how they're oh so knowledgeable with their Force lightning and their... well, telekinesis, and, yeah. roll eyes (sarcastic)

wink


Based on what are Nomi Sunrider and half of those Ancient Sith more knowledgeable than the Banite Sith? Like... what? Zannah alone had Freedon Nadd's holocron, which contains everything Sadow knew (ergo, the cumulative knowledge of the Old Sith Empire up to that point) as well as Adas.

I'm obviously excluding esoteric non-Jedi/non-Sith knowledge, by the way.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 07:51 AM
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DarthAnt66
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The only confirmed powers the rank-and-file knew (following Gravid), were, what?

- Telekinesis
- Force Lightning
- Telepathy
- Force Sense
- Force Concealment

Throw in Darth Malak, Ulic-Qel Droma, Darth Traya, and basically every other named Sith on that list too, then. wink

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
Zannah alone had Freedon Nadd's holocron, which contains everything Sadow knew (ergo, the cumulative knowledge of the Old Sith Empire up to that point) as well as Adas.

I'm obviously excluding esoteric non-Jedi/non-Sith knowledge, by the way.

As the Bane novel made clear, not all the Sith mastered all the techniques. Some they stored away for their apprentices or other uses.

Secondly, I don't see any reason to believe said holocron survived Gravid's meddling. You're underestimating how much Gravid destroyed.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 07:52 AM
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DarthAnt66
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Note the Plagueis novel states that more than half of the knowledge that pre-Gravid Sith had were destroyed.

And I don't see evidence that they were rediscovered, but rather the Sith learned how to adapt from the setback.

They focused more on infiltrating the Republic, sowing corruption and chaos, mastering Force concealment, etc.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 5th, 2016 at 08:02 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 07:58 AM
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SunRazer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The only confirmed powers the rank-and-file knew (following Gravid), were, what?

- Telekinesis
- Force Lightning
- Telepathy
- Force Sense
- Force Concealment


Drain, Cryokinesis, Crucitorn, Convection, etc. - the stuff listed in Bane's book in BoS, which survived the Gravid fiasco. Much more as well, such as the rituals (Thought Bomb, etc.) and knowledge Palpatine gained from the Ancient Sith which allowed him to rend space and manipulate spirits, which was likely passed down the Banite line. There's also Sith Sorcery and Alchemy in numerous facets.

quote:
Throw in Darth Malak, Ulic-Qel Droma, Darth Traya, and basically every other named Sith on that list too, then. wink


Malak, Traya and Qel-Droma? lmao

quote:
As the Bane novel made clear, not all the Sith mastered all the techniques. Some they stored away for their apprentices or other uses.


Which is still Force knowledge. Do you seriously believe the characters above mastered every technique? laughing out loud

quote:
Secondly, I don't see any reason to believe said holocron survived Gravid's meddling. You're underestimating how much Gravid destroyed.


I don't see any reason to believe that it was destroyed, either. You're speculating either way.

We do know that Naga Sadow's holocron survived, though, so my point still stands. Sorzus Syn's holocron and chronicles survived as well. The holocron of Bane survived, the Telos Holocron, etc.

In fact, you're overestimating what was destroyed, lol. The latter Banite Sith had ample knowledge of events and powers preceding Gravid, and knowledge of techniques since as well. Numerous third-person objective sources talk about how the Banite Sith cultivated their knowledge in the long term, as opposed to being a setback. You're vastly overemphasizing Gravid's work, lol.

Last edited by SunRazer on Sep 5th, 2016 at 08:06 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 08:04 AM
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DarthAnt66
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I have no clue why you're assuming Bane, Plagueis, and Palpatine's knowledge is in any way, shape, or form indication of your post-Gravid Banite Sith.

They (the end Banites) could have obtained those works (holocrons, BoS) on their own - it didn't *all* need to be past down from generation to generation. We don't know.

You'd have to define a specific time period, and even then chances are I'd be more impressed with Revan's Dark Jedi.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 5th, 2016 at 08:15 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 08:09 AM
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DarthAnt66
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Hell, I just checked out the opening to BoS, and Palpatine states that he himself regathered the entries following the fall of the Jedi.

Thus, the Banite Sith prior to him clearly didn't have the shit listed in there.

EDIT: Also, the Telos Holocron has no recorded entries of Banite Sith until Palpatine and Dooku.


__________________

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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 5th, 2016 at 08:24 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 08:18 AM
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SunRazer
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Palpatine also says in a scrawl in Sorzus Syn's chronicles that the Sith have been in possession of Sorzus Syn's holocron since the time of Bane. Bane's own holocron, which contains the knowledge of Darth Revan's holocron and others, also survived. Bane's The Rule of Two survived the centuries under Sith possession as well.

So in fact, they do already have most of the knowledge there. Malgus' journal doesn't include any Force knowledge, Wild Power isn't something that any of the early Sith would've known about, and the later entries are made by Plagueis and Palpatine themselves.

If you think Revan's Dark Jedi or the Triumvirate have access to more knowledge than that, you might be able to take home the Darwin's Award for Excellence.

Last edited by SunRazer on Sep 5th, 2016 at 09:18 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 09:15 AM
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MS Warehouse
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
But Star Wars is a fantasy not RL. A common trope in Fantasy is the notion that magic users have weakened as times go by. One need look no farther than the granddaddy of fantasy itself, LotR, to see this.


Yup, look at X Men, Underworld, etc. Then again if you want to compare to real world, look no further than sports where all the debates rage on. It's generally understood that MJ is the best player of all time. You give him today's rules and physiological breakthroughs and he dominates.

In Tennis, there's more of a debate but Borg is considered the best of all time. Same argument.

In soccer, Pele is considered the best of all time. And so on and so on. The argument doesn't have a leg to stand on when you're discussing force users, only technological developments, which the GE has and why they're numero uno as far as an army/navy/military is concerned.

However, the force users were prevalent in a different era and therefore had access to more material. The force users of the current era are a minority compared to the Old Republic and lack the knowledge of not only current techniques, but the thousands of lost ones. So if anything, you'll go back to the GAOTS Of even the Jedi Exiles if you want to see the most powerful of the most powerful. Granted in future generations, the most powerful force users developed new techniques but much more were lost. So you're wrong, as usual. But guys like Bane/Palpatine/Plagueis obviously don't fit into the status quo.

quote:
Palpatine also says in a scrawl in Sorzus Syn's chronicles that the Sith have been in possession of Sorzus Syn's holocron since the time of Bane. Bane's own holocron, which contains the knowledge of Darth Revan's holocron and others, also survived. Bane's The Rule of Two survived the centuries under Sith possession as well.

So in fact, they do already have most of the knowledge there. Malgus' journal doesn't include any Force knowledge, Wild Power isn't something that any of the early Sith would've known about, and the later entries are made by Plagueis and Palpatine themselves.

If you think Revan's Dark Jedi or the Triumvirate have access to more knowledge than that, you might be able to take home the Darwin's Award for Excellence.

Your argument only makes sense if you assume everyone pours their entire information into these writings/holocrons (they don't), which they wouldn't do unless they're open to sharing their knowledge and power (most aren't). Syn's holocron could and writings could have contained a fraction of her knowledge. We know Revan's holocron definitely didn't include everything. I would concede that Nadd's holocron appeared to contain enough information for Bane to have studied it for a decade, but he destroyed it soon after.

Last edited by MS Warehouse on Sep 5th, 2016 at 11:14 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:11 AM
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SunRazer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse


Your argument only makes sense if you assume everyone pours their entire information into these writings/holocrons (they don't), which they wouldn't do unless they're open to sharing their knowledge and power (most aren't). Syn's holocron could and writings could have contained a fraction of her knowledge. We know Revan's holocron definitely didn't include everything. I would concede that Nadd's holocron appeared to contain enough information for Bane to have studied it for a decade, but he destroyed it soon after.


The holocron's simulacrum is essentially you at the time you made it, lol. The knowledge imparted is the same.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:14 AM
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MS Warehouse
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
The holocron's simulacrum is essentially you at the time you made it, lol. The knowledge imparted is the same.


Thank you for explaining to me the dynamics of a holocron, I must have missed the obvious the last, you know, 15+ years of reading star wars material. There's no evidence someone pours everything into a holocron, or even a fraction. So while certain holocrons like Nadd's would be a point in your favor since it had a trove of information, it appears others are like Revan's with a few techniques and words of wisdom.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:19 AM
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SunRazer
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Revan's Holocron had a few techniques? Bane mused that it was vastly greater than the entire Sith archives on Korriban, lmfao. You're talking out of your ass.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:21 AM
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MS Warehouse
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
Revan's Holocron had a few techniques? Bane mused that it was vastly greater than the entire Sith archives on Korriban, lmfao. You're talking out of your ass.


Yea, care to tell me what the archives were worth on Korriban? Nothing. Bane was seeking teaching and techniques. From reading PoD, it's clear the current texts at the academy are worth less than nothing. There's no need to get get mad at me for being wrong.

Also, Bane was pretty clear on what he thought was vastly greater than the Academy's texts and that was Revan's knowledge. Must have missed that one thumb up

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:22 AM
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SunRazer
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quote:
The interior consisted of a single square room, five meters on each side, lit only by a single soft light hanging from the ceiling. The walls were lined by shelves overflowing with the scrolls, tomes, andmanuscripts he had assembled over the years: the teachings of the ancient Sith. In the center of the room stood a large podium and a small pedestal. On the pedestal rested the Dark Lord's greatest treasure: his Holocron.

A four-sided crystal pyramid small enough to be held in the palm, the Holocron contained the sum of all Bane's knowledge and understanding. Everything he had learned about the ways of the dark side—all his teachings, all his philosophies—had been transferred into the Holocron, recorded for all eternity. It was his legacy, a way to share an entire lifetime of wisdom with those who would follow him in the line of Sith Masters.

-- Dynasty of Evil


Checkmate. thumb up

Last edited by SunRazer on Sep 5th, 2016 at 11:27 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:24 AM
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MS Warehouse
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
Checkmate. thumb up


quote:
Your argument only makes sense if you assume everyone pours their entire information into these writings/holocrons (they don't), which they wouldn't do unless they're open to sharing their knowledge and power (most aren't). Syn's holocron could and writings could have contained a fraction of her knowledge. We know Revan's holocron definitely didn't include everything. I would concede that Nadd's holocron appeared to contain enough information for Bane to have studied it for a decade, but he destroyed it soon after.


Checkmate indeed. Thanks for proving my point thumb up

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:26 AM
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SunRazer
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You said that it might contain only a fraction of her knowledge. The quote above proves that everything the creator knows goes into it, which would include all of her knowledge. Unless, of course, Sorzus knows things that aren't of the ways of the dark side?

Come try that again.

Last edited by SunRazer on Sep 5th, 2016 at 11:31 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:28 AM
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MS Warehouse
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
You said that it might contain only a fraction of her knowledge. The quote above proves that everything the creator knows goes into it, which would include all of her knowledge. Unless, of course, Sorzus knows things that aren't of the ways of the dark side?

Come try that again.


quote:
the Holocron contained the sum of all Bane's knowledge and understanding. Everything he had learned about the ways of the dark side—all his teachings, all his philosophies—had been transferred into the Holocron, recorded for all eternity.


I'm not sure you're keeping track of who you're talking about. And no, the quote only proves that Bane poured all his knowledge into it, continuing his sith line. For every Bane holocron, you'll get many more Darth Vectivus' holocrons that are meaningless.

So what you're essentially saying is, the holocrons that ARE found (lets generously say 1% of all known and unknown force users throughout history) may or may NOT contain incredibly useful information? Which essentially proves the other 99% of information/techniques are lost. Another checkmate, lets move on.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:34 AM
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SunRazer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I'm not sure you're keeping track of who you're talking about. And no, the quote only proves that Bane poured all his knowledge into it, continuing his sith line. For every Bane holocron, you'll get many more Darth Vectivus' holocrons that are meaningless.

So what you're essentially saying is, the holocrons that ARE found (lets generously say 1% of all known and unknown force users throughout history) may or may NOT contain incredibly useful information? Which essentially proves the other 99% of information/techniques are lost. Another checkmate, lets move on.


Prove that it's exclusive solely to Bane. Prove to me that any Sith has ever withheld knowledge from their holocron. Until then, you're asking me to indulge in your fan-fiction, which I'll have to refuse.

Vectivus' Holocron was useless to the One Sith because they already knew everything in it, bar the Force Phantom technique. That doesn't mean that he has nothing else in there. You're reaching harder than Revan did to invoke the nexus of Malachor V, lol.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:42 AM
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MS Warehouse
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quote:
Prove that it's exclusive solely to Bane. Prove to me that any Sith has ever withheld knowledge from their holocron. Until then, you're asking me to indulge in your fan-fiction, which I'll have to refuse.

I don't have to. We've seen Darth Vectivus' holocron on business dealings, Revan's holocron touting some techniques and his philosophy, and another holocron detailing the creation of sith armor. The burden of proof is on you I'm afraid. And again, even if you ARE correct:

quote:
So what you're essentially saying is, the holocrons that ARE found (lets generously say 1% of all known and unknown force users throughout history) may or may NOT contain incredibly useful information? Which essentially proves the other 99% of information/techniques are lost. Another checkmate, lets move on.


quote:
Vectivus' Holocron was useless to the One Sith because they already knew everything in it, bar the Force Phantom technique. That doesn't mean that he has nothing else in there. You're reaching harder than Revan did to invoke the nexus of Malachor V, lol.

Now you're just desperately rationalizing in the face of defeat. Concede and move on.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 11:44 AM
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