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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful


Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful
Started by: The Ellimist

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SunRazer
Outer God

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: The distant past


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I don't have to. We've seen Darth Vectivus' holocron on business dealings, Revan's holocron touting some techniques and his philosophy, and another holocron detailing the creation of sith armor. The burden of proof is on you I'm afraid. And again, even if you ARE correct:


Repeating your fan-fiction ad nauseam doesn't prove anything.

Revan's holocron taught Bane a vast number of rituals, Drain Life, Detoxify Poison, and more. There's no evidence that these Holocrons or any others were intentionally deprived of the summative knowledge of their creators, especially when in Bane's case, well, that wasn't the case.

But as you've accused me in another thread:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You're not big on providing evidence are you?


I'd ask you the same here.

quote:
Now you're just desperately rationalizing in the face of defeat. Concede and move on.


That'd sound a lot more convincing if you weren't doing just that, lmfao. But you do have a history of accusing others of exactly what you're doing, so I'm going to assume that you're trolling and deliberately wasting my time.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:25 PM
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MS Warehouse
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Registered: May 2016
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quote:

That'd sound a lot more convincing if you weren't doing just that, lmfao. But you do have a history of accusing others of exactly what you're doing, so I'm going to assume that you're trolling and deliberately wasting my time.

That's nice. You repeat what I just said to you. I'll take that as a concession.

quote:
So what you're essentially saying is, the holocrons that ARE found (lets generously say 1% of all known and unknown force users throughout history) may or may NOT contain incredibly useful information? Which essentially proves the other 99% of information/techniques are lost. Another checkmate, lets move on.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:27 PM
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SunRazer
Outer God

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: The distant past


 

I'm still waiting for the evidence for that statistic, lol.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:28 PM
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MS Warehouse
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Registered: May 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm still waiting for the evidence for that statistic, lol.


Estimate the amount of sith that are known. Then conservatively double that to include those unknown. Divide that number by the amount of holocrons found over time. Then you get your statistic, and that's me giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming every sith lord has given everything he knows to his holocrons, that's actually relevant to power (which I've already disproven).

Now take that small number, compare it to the thousands of years and known/unknown sith that did NOT create a holocron or write anything to pass down, and you'd be hilariously wrong.. Again.

/Thread

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:32 PM
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SunRazer
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Registered: Apr 2015
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Estimate the amount of sith that are known. Then conservatively double that to include those unknown. Divide that number by the amount of holocrons found over time. Then you get your statistic, and that's me giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming every sith lord has given everything he knows to his holocrons, that's actually relevant to power (which I've already disproven).


You never disproved anything about teachings being relevant to power or not. The text I quoted claims specifically that Bane transcribed everything he knew - which would include things related to power as well.

quote:
Now take that small number, compare it to the thousands of years and known/unknown sith that did NOT create a holocron or write anything to pass down, and you'd be hilariously wrong.. Again.

/Thread


The fact that the vast majority of Sith don't record their teachings doesn't preclude the few individuals that do from transcribing everything they know down, lol.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:34 PM
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MS Warehouse
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Registered: May 2016
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quote:
You never disproved anything about teachings being relevant to power or not. The text I quoted claims specifically that Bane transcribed everything he knew - which would include things related to power as well.

Great, and before that I said there were some sith lords that did that. And then I gave you MORE examples of those that didn't, or had nothing of value to add. Thereby proving my point.

quote:
The fact that the vast majority of Sith don't record their teachings doesn't preclude the few individuals that do from transcribing everything they know down, lol.

And since this wasn't argued, I'm glad we're on the same page thumb up

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:35 PM
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SunRazer
Outer God

Registered: Apr 2015
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Great, and before that I said there were some sith lords that did that. And then I gave you MORE examples of those that didn't, or had nothing of value to add. Thereby proving my point.


Prove that Vectivus or Revan didn't. The fact that the One Sith found Vectivus' holocron largely useless means only that they're already aware of the most of the contents, not that the contents themselves are useless, as I've already said.

quote:
And since this wasn't argued, I'm glad we're on the same page thumb up


Then let's progress.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:37 PM
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MS Warehouse
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quote:
Prove that Vectivus or Revan didn't.

The fact that you're asking me to prove a negative to you is essentially a concession. You'd have to prove they did before I have to prove they didn't. Since Vectivus' holocron contained the force phantom technique and business ethics, that's a point in my favor.
quote:
The fact that the One Sith found Vectivus' holocron largely useless means only that they're already aware of the most of the contents, not that the contents themselves are useless.

We were told explicitly what was in the holocron. If you want to argue there were useful contents, the onus is on you to prove it. But again, you are getting entirely sidetracked here.

Even if I grant you that the few force users that have holocrons do pour everything into their holocrons (they don't), the other 99% of the known and unknown force users throughout history don't. Therefore techniques lost infinitely exceed those that are passed down or discovered, which was the point.. NOW we can move on.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:40 PM
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SunRazer
Outer God

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The fact that you're asking me to prove a negative to you is essentially a concession. You'd have to prove they did before I have to prove they didn't. Since Vectivus' holocron contained the force phantom technique and business ethics, that's a point in my favor.


Then let me rephrase my question; prove that Revan and Vectivus omitted knowledge from their holocron, since I believe the root cause of our disagreement was that Sorzus Syn may have intentionally withheld such knowledge - the burden of which, I might add, is still on you to prove.

The fact that it contained business ethics or Force Phantoms proves your point how? Force Phantoms were unprecedented, and business ethics weren't things you'd find in any Sith manuscript... so it's unprecedented as well.

quote:
We were told explicitly what was in the holocron. If you want to argue there were useful contents, the onus is on you to prove it. But again, you are getting entirely sidetracked here.


Quote me on where the entirety of the Holocron's contents were revealed.

quote:
Even if I grant you that the few force users that have holocrons do pour everything into their holocrons (they don't), the other 99% of the known and unknown force users throughout history don't. Therefore techniques lost infinitely exceed those that are passed down or discovered, which was the point.. NOW we can move on.


The problem being that almost all of these non-recorders are pretty useless creeps who study from recorded texts to begin with. I mean, can you even name any Sith worth his salt who didn't record his teachings in one way or another, or that another Sith didn't have those teachings available in their recordings?

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 12:46 PM
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MS Warehouse
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quote:
Then let me rephrase my question; prove that Revan and Vectivus omitted knowledge from their holocron, since I believe the root cause of our disagreement was that Sorzus Syn may have intentionally withheld such knowledge - the burden of which, I might add, is still on you to prove.

You're just rephrasing the negative. There's no proof they put everything into their holocrons. Sith do not share power so they are very careful what they put into their holocrons. Bane is an exception and to a lesser extent Revan.

quote:
Quote me on where the entirety of the Holocron's contents were revealed.

I don't need to. If the sith themselves consider a holocron to be worthless, then it is indeed worthless. It doesn't matter if business practices are "unprecedented", but that's not the topic of this thread is it? You're to give reasons why modern era characters are more powerful and the only way that's possible is if the characters gain way more powers than are lost (with the exception of the ability to create their own). I've given you an ironclad argument where even in the best case scenario for you, infinitely more techniques are lost than are found and/or discovered.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 01:02 PM
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The Ellimist
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Registered: Apr 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
350 years somehow equates to two thousand, but okay.


Yeah because the rest of those 1650 turn up nothing, and you know it.

Heck, bring on the last 25,000 years of the Jedi Order, and you can't come up with a top six list matching Luke/Yoda/Anakin/Mace/Galen/Kyp. That's like seventy years.

quote:


Changes his mind after the unbalancing of the Force affords him more power?



Or literally makes him more powerful via manipulating his own midichlorians. thumb up

quote:

Rivalling something doesn't equate to it.


No, but it suggests that we consider which one is superior; and the Jedi Archives are just more likely to have more information, given its longer stretch of time and whatnot.

quote:

There were Sith who could devastate numerous worlds and caused dark side domination in the cosmos by merely existing. You're also equating no other Sith ever trying it, with no other Sith could.


You don't think any other sith would've figured out how to bust planets from across the galaxy if they could?

quote:

Given the likes of Valkorion and Nihilus were ravaging worlds and were genuine galactic threats, both of whom were causing galaxy wide effects on the Force, I'm not seeing how exactly we're facing a vast disparity.


Nihilus was able to drain individuals on a planet, and Valkorion could sort of emulate a lite storm via prep and a nexus, but none could tear the surfaces off of worlds from across the galaxy.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 02:38 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine also says in a scrawl in Sorzus Syn's chronicles that the Sith have been in possession of Sorzus Syn's holocron since the time of Bane. Bane's own holocron, which contains the knowledge of Darth Revan's holocron and others, also survived. Bane's The Rule of Two survived the centuries under Sith possession as well.

Quote? On page 6, he states he didn't get Sorzus Syn's entry until after Yoda's exile and Windu's death.

Also, Quinlan Vos had Bane's entry in the BotS in his possession prior to his tutelage under Dooku, so it's clear Palpatine didn't have it.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:11 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[B]Quote? On page 6, he states he didn't get Sorzus Syn's entry until after Yoda's exile and Windu's death.


I can confirm that he speaks truth. Palpatine was in possession of the Syn holocron before he found Syn's journal.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:25 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

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And the Syn Holocron possessed what, exactly? An undefined and unlisted set of magic and alchemy teachings? laughing out loud

I'd frankly be more impressed if he had her entry. So yeah, Dark Jedi #152 on the Star Forge is still in the lead. erm


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:34 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

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Also note: "The holocron had the ability to block out areas of knowledge that were beyond the user's ability."

So there's really no telling how much Bane even knew concerning Revan and co.'s knowledge.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:49 PM
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Beniboybling
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The Jedi didn't have any Sith holocrons to my knowledge, they were all fakes.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:50 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
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They clearly had some, since Dooku was lured to one early in his apprenticeship as a Jedi. erm

And they also, obviously, had dozens of Sith entries and scrolls, as the Book of the Sith made clear.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:52 PM
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Beniboybling
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After the Clone Wars Vader had Sidious retrieve all the remaining holocrons from the Jedi Temple, all of which were in fact forgeries. The would of course exclude the one stolen by Dooku prior to that happening, but is there any evidence to suggest that wasn't also a fake?


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:56 PM
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MS Warehouse
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None of this really helps the argument of "modern=more powerful". It's pretty obvious that in the sw universe, the reverse is true as has been proven. The majority of force techniques used throughout the mythos all came from the same time period. Guys like Palpatine/Bane/Plagueis where in the rarified air of force users that could potentially create their own techniques. Technology on the other hand has improved over time.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 05:59 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
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Quote they were all forgeries? And, again, a lot of the entries, scrolls, books, etc. were legitimate. Holocrons aren't the only way to store knowledge, especially for the Sith.

And yes, it's confirmed to be a true Sith Holocron in Legacy of the Jedi. Here's one quote of many:

Lorian turned back to him. "Yes, Dooku, I did access the Sith Holocron. I was curious. And what I saw chilled my blood and haunted my days for a long time. It haunts me still. And yet it is comforting somehow. Once you've seen true evil, you can be sure that you will never be able to fall that low."

Dooku also made note of its dark side nexus, etc.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:02 PM
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