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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful


Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful
Started by: The Ellimist

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An_Sock
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Very interesting points friend.

There's no use in opposing this. The modern era is simply better in the practical application of knowledge and training for combat. In fact, they are soooo much better than previous generations in the field, that the two wisest and most powerful masters, Yoda and Mace Windu, sent Anakin to find the long lost holocron of an ancient Jedi Knight just so he could learn an "arcane" technique.

https://youtu.be/HYEc8C_1gTc?t=43s

That technique of course was how to resist Force drain.

In other words Yoda and Mace Windu in the same room couldn't tell Anakin how to resist drain, but Ulic Qel Droma's phantom could.

At least we know how Nhillus fares against the two now.

Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 09:52 AM
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Not_a_sock
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Do the PT Brigade believe themselves to be edgy supporting the status quo regurgitating the same arguments from years ago?

Cringe.


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Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 10:28 AM
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S_W_LeGenDofPT
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Good effort and good analysis Member The Ellimist. I approve.


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Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 10:34 AM
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S_W_LeGenDofPT
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by An_Sock
Very interesting points friend.

There's no use in opposing this. The modern era is simply better in the practical application of knowledge and training for combat. In fact, they are soooo much better than previous generations in the field, that the two wisest and most powerful masters, Yoda and Mace Windu, sent Anakin to find the long lost holocron of an ancient Jedi Knight just so he could learn an "arcane" technique.

That technique of course was how to resist Force drain.

In other words Yoda and Mace Windu in the same room couldn't tell Anakin how to resist drain, but Ulic Qel Droma's phantom could.

At least we know how Nhillus fares against the two now.


Good points. Valkorion fans do nothing but troll these days. I am glad there are intelligent people like you who understand the proper ground realities of the mythos and acknowledge how eras advance over time. This is only logical.

Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 10:45 AM
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Ursumeles
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Holy ****


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Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 10:52 AM
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An_Sock
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/thread.

Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 02:11 PM
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LordOfTheLight
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And yet, padawans and generic Jedi in PT era can do techniques that the Council Masters of the ToTJ era classified as Sith powers and weren't even aware of them until recently, "or" they knew but simply were "incapable" of doing it. Jedi Masters in the PT era are using Force Drain and force illusions pretty casually, and both were seen as forbidden "arcane" Sith powers back in the day.

Lmfao.

Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 04:29 PM
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DarthAnt66
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(The reverse is also true)


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Old Post Dec 29th, 2017 05:52 PM
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An_Sock
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
And yet, padawans and generic Jedi in PT era can do techniques that the Council Masters of the ToTJ era classified as Sith powers and weren't even aware of them until recently, "or" they knew but simply were "incapable" of doing it. Jedi Masters in the PT era are using Force Drain and force illusions pretty casually, and both were seen as forbidden "arcane" Sith powers back in the day.

Lmfao.


Post your evidence in full friend.

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 01:37 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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New does not equal better, superior, etc

Just as old does not mean worse, inferior, etc

The idea that new generations>old generations is stupid

A lot of Sith-Jedi knowledge was lost over time. That's why only Ulic-Qel-Droma was the only one who knew the Force drain immunity.

Both eras had their ups and downs.


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Old Post Jan 5th, 2018 12:11 AM
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The Ellimist
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
New does not equal better, superior, etc

Just as old does not mean worse, inferior, etc

The idea that new generations>old generations is stupid

A lot of Sith-Jedi knowledge was lost over time. That's why only Ulic-Qel-Droma was the only one who knew the Force drain immunity.

Both eras had their ups and downs.


You didn't exactly respond to anything lol.


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Old Post Jan 5th, 2018 12:12 AM
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LordOfTheLight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by An_Sock
Post your evidence in full friend.


It's pretty funny as to how you keep getting banned and keep coming back. May I inquire as to why you are banned?

As for the evidence, Electronic Manipulation was classified as a Sith power by the ToTJ compendium, which states that Jedi of the era are simply incapable of using it without a rage amplification. We know that Obi Wan has done it countless times, Qui Gon has done it, and perhaps even a padawan Obi Wan has done it.

Memory wipe( also called Memory Rub) is another power which allows a force user to enter into the deepest recesses of a person's brain, and selectively eliminate certain memories. Again, classified as a Sith power in the ToTJ compendium, and to reiterate, the existence of these powers were only just coming to the knowledge of the Jedi Council of the era, as is stated in the compendium.

quote:
Obi-Wan wasn't even sure he was, anymore. There was a Force power, known by a select few. A more ... severe version of the so-called Jedi mind trick. It allowed a Force-user to sieve a person's mind-and then completely obliterate specific memories. One wrong move, however, and this identity-stealing ability could utterly hollow a victim's mind. Leaving her..

Soulless.

Obi-Wan looked from newborn Luke to decrepit Vima.

The choice, was no choice at all.

When he taught it to him, Qui-Gon had told Obi-Wan this memory-destroying power was an artifice of the dark side, for the midi-chlorians never failed to protest its use.

And yet, Qui-Gon had taught it to him anyway.

Credit: Lone Wolf-A Tale of Obi Wan and Luke


Obi Wan knew of this as a padawan.

As for Force Illusions, we know that Yarael Poof is a master of those, having conjured illusions Naga Sadow style to confuse and disorient entire armies. Again, illusions were classified as a Sith discipline( a product of Sith sorcery) by the Jedi Council.

Here is Obi Wan using Force Drain and Illusions simultaneously:

quote:


For though the Jedi Master was weak beyond measure-his Padawan was not.

Tapping into the tiny luminous being, Obi-Wan allowed Luke's singular Force signature to course into him. And at the same time, he reached for an image, a longing, protected at the edge of the Bpfasshi's mind. Then, for one brief breath in time, Obi-Wan's bearded features blurred and morphed, changing ... into features very much like Fomadu's own.

The hatred fled from the Bpfasshi's face.

"Z-Zukao?" he rasped.

........

Luke's assistance in the struggle with Fomadu had drained the boy totally, drubbing the newborn unconscious.

Credit:Lone Wolf-A Tale of Obi Wan and Luke



Obi Wan here basically represents the Jedi knowledge of the era, and Drain isn't made out to be anything noteworthy. To put into perspective, the Jedi of ToTJ were unaware that you could even drain sentient beings.

Old Post Jan 5th, 2018 01:23 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote:
As for the evidence, Electronic Manipulation was classified as a Sith power by the ToTJ compendium, which states that Jedi of the era are simply incapable of using it without a rage amplification. We know that Obi Wan has done it countless times, Qui Gon has done it, and perhaps even a padawan Obi Wan has done it.


This ability was used in the Old Republic times too. Just because it was classified as a 'dark side' power; that doesn't mean it wasn't used by some Jedi.


quote:
Memory wipe( also called Memory Rub) is another power which allows a force user to enter into the deepest recesses of a person's brain, and selectively eliminate certain memories. Again, classified as a Sith power in the ToTJ compendium, and to reiterate, the existence of these powers were only just coming to the knowledge of the Jedi Council of the era, as is stated in the compendium.


Didn't Revan do it on the Sith Emperor? Didn't Nadd know about it?

Just because they didn't use it; that doesn't meant it wasn't passed from generation to generation. It's a familiar theme in stories that you are learned certain abilities that you are not allowed to use them. Even Qui-Gonn says that to Obi-Wan.



quote:
As for Force Illusions, we know that Yarael Poof is a master of those, having conjured illusions Naga Sadow style to confuse and disorient entire armies. Again, illusions were classified as a Sith discipline( a product of Sith sorcery) by the Jedi Council. Here is Obi Wan using Force Drain and Illusions simultaneously:




quote:
quote:
For though the Jedi Master was weak beyond measure-his Padawan was not. Tapping into the tiny luminous being, Obi-Wan allowed Luke's singular Force signature to course into him. And at the same time, he reached for an image, a longing, protected at the edge of the Bpfasshi's mind. Then, for one brief breath in time, Obi-Wan's bearded features blurred and morphed, changing ... into features very much like Fomadu's own. The hatred fled from the Bpfasshi's face. "Z-Zukao?" he rasped. ........ Luke's assistance in the struggle with Fomadu had drained the boy totally, drubbing the newborn unconscious. Credit:Lone Wolf-A Tale of Obi Wan and Luke


You forget that Obi-Wan simultaneously did it with Luke's assistance. And from the context I get in fact that he created an illusion with Luke's aid(his Force signature) and that action drained the boy; it exhausted him; not that it drained him literally. I think you just take the 'drain' part literally when clearly it isn't the case.


quote:
Obi Wan here basically represents the Jedi knowledge of the era, and Drain isn't made out to be anything noteworthy. To put into perspective, the Jedi of ToTJ were unaware that you could even drain sentient beings.


Or maybe they didn't want to do it? Think about it.
Also, Ulic-Qel-Droma knew the Force drain immunity. So, not all the knowledge was passed over to the new generations.

As aforementioned, Obi-Wan didn't use Force drain in that particular scene. It's just a line taken literally.


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Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 6th, 2018 at 01:34 AM

Old Post Jan 6th, 2018 01:31 AM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You didn't exactly respond to anything lol.


And what exactly should I say?

Do you expect from me a old>new argument?

Each era had their abilities, knowledge, akin to their times and their 'warriors'


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2018 01:37 AM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
As for the evidence, Electronic Manipulation was classified as a Sith power by the ToTJ compendium, which states that Jedi of the era are simply incapable of using it without a rage amplification. We know that Obi Wan has done it countless times, Qui Gon has done it, and perhaps even a padawan Obi Wan has done it.


Isn't Arca Jeth the first person who used it though?


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2018 09:51 AM
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LordOfTheLight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
This ability was used in the Old Republic times too. Just because it was classified as a 'dark side' power; that doesn't mean it wasn't used by some Jedi.




Didn't Revan do it on the Sith Emperor? Didn't Nadd know about it?

Just because they didn't use it; that doesn't meant it wasn't passed from generation to generation. It's a familiar theme in stories that you are learned certain abilities that you are not allowed to use them. Even Qui-Gonn says that to Obi-Wan.









You forget that Obi-Wan simultaneously did it with Luke's assistance. And from the context I get in fact that he created an illusion with Luke's aid(his Force signature) and that action drained the boy; it exhausted him; not that it drained him literally. I think you just take the 'drain' part literally when clearly it isn't the case.




Or maybe they didn't want to do it? Think about it.
Also, Ulic-Qel-Droma knew the Force drain immunity. So, not all the knowledge was passed over to the new generations.

As aforementioned, Obi-Wan didn't use Force drain in that particular scene. It's just a line taken literally.
[/QUOTE]

No offense, but are you kidding me?

It was explicitly stated that the Jedi couldn't "do" it in the ToTJ compendium. Go check your sources.

The most ridiculous thing you could have ever said, is an "hours" old Luke "offering" assistance. Roflmfao, are you looking for excuses or something here?

Did you miss the part where Obi Wan actively "taps" into Luke, and drains him. Luke's assistance is just another way of saying that Luke's energy was extracted from him, lmfao. Did you miss the part where Obi Wan was explicitly stated as being very weak, and needed Luke's assistance? Obi Wan had utterly exhausted his reserves here from previous conflicts, had utterly spent himself physically, hence he needed to "drain" Luke.

I mean seriously? Obi Wan "taps" into Luke's power, allows it to flow into him, effectively rejuvenating himself with Luke's power and you somehow argue that it wasn't force drain. Lol, even if you check a ToTJ source, like the compendium, the definition of "drain" is "exactly what Obi Wan has done here. I get the strong feeling you are trolling here.

It "is" force drain, no matter how you spin it, lmfao. Obi Wan draws energy from a "few hours old" Luke, and Luke is knocked unconscious. Obi Wan gains more power, in his extremely hindered state. That is "exactly" what force drain is.

Next, no Revan didn't do it, lol. Not on the Sith emperor at least. Subtly influencing a person is vastly different from obliterating selected memories.

And you are wrong again. As I said, it is explicitly stated that the Jedi had only just come to know about even the existence of this power. They didn't use it because they had no idea it even existed, until just recently.

Lastly, again, it is explicitly stated that Jedi didn't "know" that you could even drain them. It's not that they didn't want to, they had no idea that such a thing could even be done.

These are "facts". Literally everything you said is your head canon.

Old Post Jan 6th, 2018 11:54 AM
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LordOfTheLight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't Arca Jeth the first person who used it though?


That's not EM, that's Ionize. He just has to short circuit the wires inside a droid with precision. That's nowhere close to manipulating electronics by overriding their programmed functions.

Old Post Jan 6th, 2018 12:03 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
No offense, but are you kidding me?

It was explicitly stated that the Jedi couldn't "do" it in the ToTJ compendium. Go check your sources.

The most ridiculous thing you could have ever said, is an "hours" old Luke "offering" assistance. Roflmfao, are you looking for excuses or something here?

Did you miss the part where Obi Wan actively "taps" into Luke, and drains him. Luke's assistance is just another way of saying that Luke's energy was extracted from him, lmfao. Did you miss the part where Obi Wan was explicitly stated as being very weak, and needed Luke's assistance? Obi Wan had utterly exhausted his reserves here from previous conflicts, had utterly spent himself physically, hence he needed to "drain" Luke.

I mean seriously? Obi Wan "taps" into Luke's power, allows it to flow into him, effectively rejuvenating himself with Luke's power and you somehow argue that it wasn't force drain. Lol, even if you check a ToTJ source, like the compendium, the definition of "drain" is "exactly what Obi Wan has done here. I get the strong feeling you are trolling here.

It "is" force drain, no matter how you spin it, lmfao. Obi Wan draws energy from a "few hours old" Luke, and Luke is knocked unconscious. Obi Wan gains more power, in his extremely hindered state. That is "exactly" what force drain is.

Next, no Revan didn't do it, lol. Not on the Sith emperor at least. Subtly influencing a person is vastly different from obliterating selected memories.

And you are wrong again. As I said, it is explicitly stated that the Jedi had only just come to know about even the existence of this power. They didn't use it because they had no idea it even existed, until just recently.

Lastly, again, it is explicitly stated that Jedi didn't "know" that you could even drain them. It's not that they didn't want to, they had no idea that such a thing could even be done.

These are "facts". Literally everything you said is your head canon.



From the drain part, it seems to me that Luke was amping up Obi-Wan, not the other way around. As about mind probe/memory rub, even Jinn warned him that it's a malice ability. And how does he know it, then?
As I said, the ancient Jedi learned these basic abilities, but were warned not to use them.
Revan might have not erased some of Vitiate's memory, but he was definitely altering his thoughts a little bit.
When you play the KotORs, you can Force-persuade people, it definitely has connection to mind-altering.

If they needed Ulic's secret to Force drain immunity, it proves that the Modern Jedi didn't know really every stuff.


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Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:17 AM

Old Post Jan 7th, 2018 11:14 AM
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LordOfTheLight
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No, Obi Wan was actively "drawing" energy from Luke. Come on man, this is as clear as it can get.

He knows it because the Jedi of the era know the force powers that Jedi of previous eras didn't. They picked it up at some point in history. Not in ToTJ, as I have stated.

As I said, they had no knowledge that these abilities even existed. It has been explicitly stated.

Force persuasion, sure. It is not a Sith ability. It is one of the most basic abilities there is.

And the Jedi of the PT era knew a lot more stuff that Jedi of other eras didn't. That game is non-canon in Legends anyways, so it holds little to no credibility.

On balance, modern Jedi are still folds better, and know more stuff than the converse.

Old Post Jan 7th, 2018 12:42 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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How so?

It clearly explains that Luke's assistance drained him, not that Obi-Wan drained him. There is a difference between opening your mouth and eat or opening your mouth while someone feeds you.

And if tapping into someone/something is considered drain to you, then one of TOTJ Jedi Masters(a tree-like Jedi) tapped into the nexus of Ossus to destroy Kun, IIRC.


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Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:05 AM
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