KMC Forums - Shaak Ti (TFU) vs Asajj Ventress (DD)

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Indeed.

It's a wise skill to learn in the realm of outdated forum engines, one must ask why it's such a tenuous concept when it's so easy to put in practice. And for the purpose of deciphering which rebuttals are meant for which portions of the argument, it is pretty useful. If that's to hard, then this numbered list of points will do me fine.

Getting salty salty over the failings of fictional characters who serve as disgraces to the continuity, and threatening those who disparage them with physical violence, or at least musing their battered bodies at the end of a knuckle duster, will make me disengage. We are not animals, if you want to be romantic, find passion one topics that bare more importance than SW.

One of the more skilled in an order thousands is far to vague and ambiguous to be defined. It means nothing. It's a token hype that's handed out to everybody and their grandmothers. When a label is distributed among an ever-growing number of lightsaber-swingers, that label looses it's value. It becomes less special when the amount of people who wear it an honour badge is extended to anyone with a name and a lightsaber. Such accolades aren't reliable when rightfully placing someone in a hierarchy. So what are we left with? Well we do know of course, that she's going to be a bit less skilled/powerful than the trio accompanying Windu's arrest warrant, the best of whom was soundly defeated by Ventress in combat. We also know she takes the silver medal when fighting Grievous on Hypori, Kiadi Mundi being the decisive MVP of their squadron. Based off all this, she's not on the elite level with Mace, Yoda and Anakin; as Nick Gillard would call it, the "tier 9's". She's certainly not on par with Obi Wan or Grievous resting firmly in within the 8's and she's not even shoulder to shoulder with people directly below that - Fisto or Kolar. Ventress on the other hand, is a genuine threat to everyone listed, with even Mace Windu needing all his skills to best her. There's no comparison.

Her accolades, as we've just discussed, amount to nothing and the ability to fend a dozen of magnagaurds would be made more impressive if she wasn't struggling with one of them beforehand. Really if this was a valid comparison with all the contextual fixings, you could take Shaak's performance in OCW and extend beyond it's natural limits to assert she's better than the fighting force of Anakin and Obi Wan. But she's not, even against Magnagaurd's, the difference between Shaak Ti with a staff is obvious. Labyrinth of Evil makes it clear that unexpected attack patterns were beyond the programmed limits of Magnagaurds, which explains the the polarised difference in performances when she utilised their weapons, to when she was using her own. As for Rham and Paratus, they're literally nothing. Not until you can clarify what being more powerful than either means.

In the comic, Galen was getting spanked by one of these black faces, the running commentary explaining how he needed to use his surroundinga to get the upper Hand. In both versions of the game, they are made invulnerable to any direct attacks with telekinesis, so it seems to be a pretty ingrained development across all mediums screaming out one clear message, these little douchers are beyond Galen's ability to affect with the Force. And yes, Syndicate, they're fodder. Fodder who can challenge Galen more than once.

I will state it again, clearly you've taken this accolade beyond its natural limits to express how Galen is almost as masterful a Soresu practitioner as Kenobi, only shy from Dooku's From 2 proficiency, comparable to Anakin in the style of Djem So and approaching Mace Windu's defness with Vaapad. I'm sorry to tell you, but for Galen, this clearly isn't the case. It's clear that the word perfection is only being used to produce a relative conviction in the same way mastery is often used to describe lightsaber wielders, in which case, the accolade puts him directly below people like Adi Gaila. I'd also like to know why Galen's lightsaber technique is considered imperfect, because it would explain why the people who can challenge him, have done so with nearing levels of success. All we have here is an ambigious label that can be used to praise the likes of Coleman Trebor - and quite possibly people weaker than him also.

"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves." - Source: Lightsaber Article

Which is not the same as : both combatants know they are mere shadows of what they could have been. Trying to conflate this with potential is a pretty desperate measure given it's very clear designation to their combat skill in the past. And if you're arguing that it refer's to Anakin's potential, what's Obi Wans excuse? He didn't suffer grievous injury at the cost of Force connection. He just became old and diminished in skill and ability. Vader is not what he was nor what he could have been, which explains why Old codgers can fight him on an even footing, not too mention neophytes such as Luke, who should be no better than Anakin at the time of Attack of the Clones.

1. Fisto was defeated by Ventress, yes. But only after she had studied his form and because her own form was perfectly suited to combating his. Granted she grew in power but so would have Fisto ( though obviously not to the same degree ) regardless we don't know what the disparity between Ventress and Fisto would be in their relative primes without external circumstances and we don't know the disparity between Fisto and Shaak. The only thing that indicates Fisto's superiority to Tiin and Kolar is that he reacted to a few of Sidious's strikes though the text notes that Fisto had assumed a defensive stance that Tiin and Kolar had not when they themselves were blitzed. We don't know how exhausted each of the Jedi were in comparison to each other meaning her performance there was circumstantial. Not to mention Mundi has stalemated Ventress in the past. Mace needed all of his skills to best her but when he did so she was driven back nearly immediately. Granted she grew after this but we can only base this growth off her best showings near the end of the war. As far as I'm aware no one was placed in these tiers until their RotS incarnations but regardless they shouldn't be used anyways given their inherent inconsistency ( I.E. putting Mace on level with someone who he couldn't even react to as they cut down his companions ).

2. Retroactively applying statements I made in my post as if I made them after your own? Can't say I really understand that strategy. Maybe if I put them into practice myself I'll gain an innate familiarity. smile

As I just explained to you your assessment is based off circumstantial showings and an inherently flawed tier system making it invalid.

The Revenge of the Sith novel makes it clear magnaguards are capable of fighting in tandem and are more formidable in groups then they are by themselves.

"Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat." - Revenge of the Sith.

"Labyrinth of Evil makes it clear that unexpected attack patterns were beyond the programmed limits of Magnagaurds"

Quote?

Given Rahm and Paratus's feats you're literally incorrect. smile

3. The novel makes no mention of distraction being necessary for Galen to defeat them. It notes he employs such a tactic against one of them ( of three ) to do so but not that he was incapable of such without employing aforementioned tactic.

Neither does the comic and I'll post the scan for both you and anybody reading this.

(please log in to view the image)

4. Proof? What makes your interpretation any more valid then mine? Your only point here is that it says near perfect meaning there is a disparity in between his skill sometime before the beginning of the novel and his absolute perfection of lightsaber combat. Even you would acknowledge that this disparity can't be great since it notes he's already "near" perfect.

5. You skipped 5.

6. Obi Wan is a shadow of his former self in regards to skill and physical capability, Vader in potential. This is implied because Vader and Ben are both stated to have grown in Force power.

"Kenobi gauged the shrinking distance between the oncoming troops and himself, then turned a pitying gaze on Vader. �This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting." - A New Hope.

"Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful." - Beware The Sith

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