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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

I've always found it funny how Dooku struggles so much against pre-prime versions of Ventress and Oppress, and then is able to perform better when facing a duo who's inferior incarnations have managed to display clear superiority to the individuals that make up the former duo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGv2NyRRlEg

It makes a little more sense though when we realize that the Oppress who Dooku faced could do this:
https://youtu.be/hxrtPnhNtZE?t=10s
And the Oppress Sidious faced could do, this:
https://youtu.be/oINgvdXXQX0?t=1m39s

Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 08:24 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

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Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I've always found it funny how Dooku struggles so much against pre-prime versions of Ventress and Oppress, and then is able to perform better when facing a duo who's inferior incarnations have managed to display clear superiority to the individuals that make up the former duo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGv2NyRRlEg



As always Dooku's just got Obi-Wan's number. Put it down to a clash of styles. And probably also Kenobi being less effective with his Saber offensive.

Skywalker however held his own. Just as Maul held his own when Kenobi was battering Opress. Just as Mace held his own when Palpatine was blitzing 3 other Council Members.

There's only so much help you can give to your back up.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang

It makes a little more sense though when we realize that the Oppress who Dooku faced could do this:
https://youtu.be/hxrtPnhNtZE?t=10s

And the Oppress Sidious faced could do, this:
https://youtu.be/oINgvdXXQX0?t=1m39s



Opress had no room in that tight cave for a Force Wave. But against Kenobi or Skywalker the Force wave was just delaying the inevitable. In fact the Kenobi/Skywalker duo were slowly chopping Opress up as evidenced by his chopped off horn.

Also you seem to be trying to make out that Opress got weaker over time. He didn't. Dooku confirmed in "Brothers" that he's getting stronger.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 4th, 2017 at 09:16 PM

Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 09:12 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
As always Dooku's just got Obi-Wan's number. Put it down to a clash of styles. And probably also Kenobi being less effective with his Saber offensive.

Sure. Though I can apply the same logic to Sidious as a physical fighter being better suited than Dooku. You also seem to be forgetting Kenobi was going on the offensive when facing Oppress and Maul as he realized he didn't have the stamina to indefinitely hold off Maul and Oppress with his Soresu.

Regardless, the flat comparison ILS is trying to draw here doesn't work because Dooku has performed far better as a duelist, and ILS is trying to use the correlation between force power and saber ability as the basis of his argument, against a far superior duo to the one he struggled with in season 3.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Skywalker however held his own.

Not very well I'm afraid. sad
An outline of the good Count's wreckage:

-> Skywalker is thrown back several feet in a bladelock:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=57s

-> Then he gets thrown back several feet again:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=59s

-> Anakin is then driven back:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m16s

-> Anakin is forced to cartwheel back after missing Dooku with an overhead swing:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m20s

-> Dooku physically breaches Anakin's guard kicking him against a pillar:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m23s

-> Dooku drives Anakin back despite having Anakin's master behind him:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA

-> Dooku kicks Anakin again, this tike landing a hit on Anakin's skull:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m30s

Simply put, Anakin was outclassed. Dooku steadily drove him back each time the two were alone and even when Anakin had Kenobi helping him, threw him several feet twice in bladelocks, and physically breached his guard twice. Anakin hardly held his own here.

Kenobi didn't do much better though, almost getting kicked of a ledge and then being picked up and thrown the one time he tried to confront Dooku on his own.

To put it simply, Dooku performs far better against a duo who themselves utterly outclass the duo Dooku can barely beat.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
[Just as Maul held his own when Kenobi was battering Opress.

Maul did far better than Anakin did here.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just as Mace held his own when Palpatine was blitzing 3 other Council Members.

Mace being an 8 bordering 9 and Lucas's own statement on the matter ensure he can hold his own in a saber contest, but that part of the fight, where Mace is barely attacked at all doesn't really prove anything. Regardless, the gap between TCW Anakin and Kenobi is nowhere near the gap between Windu and Fisto.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
There's only so much help you can give to your back up.

The problem being Anakin himself was battered.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Opress had no room in that tight cave for a Force Wave. But against Kenobi or Skywalker the Force wave was just delaying the inevitable.

Both Oppress and Maul were able to stand next to each other with room to spare and they ended up fighting on separate sides of each other. Oppress had all the room he needed to use the force if he could. What you are referring to from Shadow Conspiracy, which was based off an incomplete script, blatantly contradicts the episode itself and hence can be dismissed.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
In fact the Kenobi/Skywalker duo were slowly chopping Opress up as evidenced by his chopped off horn.


Link what you're talking about? All I saw was Anakin and Kenobi being steadily driven back.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also you seem to be trying to make out that Opress got weaker over time. He didn't. Dooku confirmed in "Brothers" that he's getting stronger.

And yet after all this growth, he turns out to be little better than fodder to someone who a season later is getting outclassed by Dooku with help.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 06:59 AM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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Dooku has a long track record of embarrassing Obi-Wan now, whereas he always has serious issues against Anakin once it's just them. I don't think Sidious would have serious issues against Anakin.

Sidious is so far beyond the guys we're talking about that styles don't even factor in. He just wins.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 07:47 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Dooku has a long track record of embarrassing Obi-Wan now, whereas he always has serious issues against Anakin once it's just them.

Post-TCW Anakin yes, TCW Anakin? Not so much.

-> Early TCW Anakin is getting stalemated and having his force defenses consistently plowed through by Ventress.

-> In season 6 Dooku clowns Anakin despite Kenobi's help as outlined here:
quote:

An outline of the good Count's wreckage:

-> Skywalker is thrown back several feet in a bladelock:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=57s

-> Then he gets thrown back several feet again:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=59s

-> Anakin is then driven back:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m16s

-> Anakin is forced to cartwheel back after missing Dooku with an overhead swing:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m20s

-> Dooku physically breaches Anakin's guard kicking him against a pillar:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m23s

-> Dooku drives Anakin back despite having Anakin's master behind him:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA

-> Dooku kicks Anakin again, this tike landing a hit on Anakin's skull:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m30s

Simply put, Anakin was outclassed. Dooku steadily drove him back each time the two were alone and even when Anakin had Kenobi helping him, threw him several feet twice in bladelocks, and physically breached his guard twice. Anakin hardly held his own here.


-> In Dark Disciple facing a superior version of Anakin, Dooku is able to fight him as an equal

The only time when TCW Anakin gave Dooku "serious trouble" would be here:
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=1m38s

At face value, Anakin is driving Dooku back and eventually gains a momentary upperhand before losing it and getting taken out by virtue of the force.

However, looking more deeply into the circumstances of the fight, we get an understanding of why it seems so inconsistent with what TCW itself establishes:

1. Dooku's goal in this fight is to escort Palpatine to his shuttle as quickly as possible. This is why Dooku is constantly retreating backwards and never attempts to press any sort of advantage. Dooku is fighting defensively and is intentionally giving ground so that he can backtrack to his ship.

2. It's arguable that Dooku is being careful not to kill Anakin. Given how Palpatine basically is arranging for this confrontation, it's logical this is a test for Anakin. And it would make sense for Sidious to make sure Dooku doesn't actually harm his opponent.

3. Dooku does fine defending against Anakin until Anakin kicks him down and attempts to choke him to death. It seems to me, Anakin gains an advantage when he draws on the dark side as choking someone is very much a dark-side thing to do and this part of the scene is foreshadowing Anakin's own turn.

4. Anakin is fighting to protect a surrogate father here. As we've seen before, Anakin can perform on another level inconsistent with how he usually performs when someone he cares about is in danger.

An extreme example would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

A milder example would be this:
https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=2m27s

tl:dr: There are a variety of reasons why the second fight in Naboo between Anakin and Dooku has Anakin performing better than we would expect given his other performances vs Dooku in TCW. In general though, Anakin isn't a match for Dooku until after TCW as their fight in season 6 makes rather obvious.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
I don't think Sidious would have serious issues against Anakin.

I'm assuming you're talking about TCW Anakin given the notion of Sidious being far above ROTS Anakin as a swordsman is factually false. While it's true that normally TCW Anakin would be outclassed by Sidious, we have seen Dooku also outclass this version of Anakin and have also seen TCW Anakin get matched by those who Dooku himself outclasses. If Anakin taps into the darkside though, we've seen Anakin can perform on another level. While I don't doubt that Sidious would outperform Dooku against Anakin even in this state, that hardly proves that Sidious is vastly superior to Dooku.

To be clear, I don't disagree with your stance, but restricting Dooku to what we see in season 3 when we see him perform better against a greatly superior duo in season 6 isn't really the best way to argue it.

And nothing here really invalidates the notion of Dooku not being ragdoll fodder to Yoda in AOTC where multiple sources indicate that Dooku isn't ragdoll fodder to him.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 5th, 2017 at 09:47 AM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 09:39 AM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

Registered: Jul 2017
Location: The Sith Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Post-TCW Anakin yes, TCW Anakin? Not so much.

-> Early TCW Anakin is getting stalemated and having his force defenses consistently plowed through by Ventress.

-> In season 6 Dooku clowns Anakin despite Kenobi's help as outlined here:


-> In Dark Disciple facing a superior version of Anakin, Dooku is able to fight him as an equal

The only time when TCW Anakin gave Dooku "serious trouble" would be here:
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=1m38s

At face value, Anakin is driving Dooku back and eventually gains a momentary upperhand before losing it and getting taken out by virtue of the force.

However, looking more deeply into the circumstances of the fight, we get an understanding of why it seems so inconsistent with what TCW itself establishes:

1. Dooku's goal in this fight is to escort Palpatine to his shuttle as quickly as possible. This is why Dooku is constantly retreating backwards and never attempts to press any sort of advantage. Dooku is fighting defensively and is intentionally giving ground so that he can backtrack to his ship.

2. It's arguable that Dooku is being careful not to kill Anakin. Given how Palpatine basically is arranging for this confrontation, it's logical this is a test for Anakin. And it would make sense for Sidious to make sure Dooku doesn't actually harm his opponent.

3. Dooku does fine defending against Anakin until Anakin kicks him down and attempts to choke him to death. It seems to me, Anakin gains an advantage when he draws on the dark side as choking someone is very much a dark-side thing to do and this part of the scene is foreshadowing Anakin's own turn.

4. Anakin is fighting to protect a surrogate father here. As we've seen before, Anakin can perform on another level inconsistent with how he usually performs when someone he cares about is in danger.

An extreme example would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

A milder example would be this:
https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=2m27s

tl:dr: There are a variety of reasons why the second fight in Naboo between Anakin and Dooku has Anakin performing better than we would expect given his other performances vs Dooku in TCW. In general though, Anakin isn't a match for Dooku until after TCW as their fight in season 6 makes rather obvious.

I'm assuming you're talking about TCW Anakin given the notion of Sidious being far above ROTS Anakin as a swordsman is factually false. While it's true that normally TCW Anakin would be outclassed by Sidious, we have seen Dooku also outclass this version of Anakin and have also seen TCW Anakin get matched by those who Dooku himself outclasses. If Anakin taps into the darkside though, we've seen Anakin can perform on another level. While I don't doubt that Sidious would outperform Dooku against Anakin even in this state, that hardly proves that Sidious is vastly superior to Dooku.

To be clear, I don't disagree with your stance, but restricting Dooku to what we see in season 3 when we see him perform better against a greatly superior duo in season 6 isn't really the best way to argue it.

And nothing here really invalidates the notion of Dooku not being ragdoll fodder to Yoda in AOTC where multiple sources indicate that Dooku isn't ragdoll fodder to him.


Dooku's Oba Diah performance is a terrible outliar. A far inferior duo in Ventress+S3 Savage pressed Dooku to the point where he only held a minimal advantage, and AOTC Kenobi+AOTC Skywalker (guys vastly below their TCW S6 selves) individually gave Dooku grief (Anakin came close to winning in AOTC). Last but not least, TCW S4 Anakin, who's individually below TCW S6 Anakin by a considerable amount, briefly gained the upper hand over Dooku who only tagged Skywalker via cheap-shot.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 03:34 PM
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Ursumeles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Anakin came close to winning in AOTC).
wtf no


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 03:45 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
wtf no

I think he's referring to this:
quote:
He was spotted by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, who followed Dooku, attacking him in the hanger. They were easily defeated by the Sith Lord but before he could finish them off, Dooku was surprised by the arrival of Yoda.

Or maybe this:
quote:
Dooku, far superior in the art of the duel, severed the young man's arm, which would later be replaced with a crude metal one.

Or is it this one?:
quote:
The two Jedi challenged Dooku to a lightsaber duel, but Dooku's masterful skills in old-style lightsaber combat made short work of the younger combatants.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 03:56 PM
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Ursumeles
Senior Member

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Location: Outside the Universe


Ursumeles is online now!

Yeah, let's look at all this quotes:
quote:
"Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.


Source: Legacy of the Jedi

quote:
He was spotted by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, who followed Dooku, attacking him in the hanger. They were easily defeated by the Sith Lord but before he could finish them off, Dooku was surprised by the arrival of Yoda.


Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #34

quote:
Anakin and Obi-Wan dueled the former Jedi in a hangar, but were no match; Dooku defeated both and severed Anakin’s arm.

quote:
But Dooku is right, Obi-Wan thought through the haze of pain and exhaustion. Anakin is no match for him… Unless Anakin does something unexpected.


Source: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization

quote:
Dooku, far superior in the art of the duel, severed the young man's arm, which would later be replaced with a crude metal one.


Source: The New Essential Guide to Characters

quote:
On Geonosis, Count Dooku showed why he had been known as one of the best duelists in the entire Jedi Order. He easily beat both Anakin and Obi-Wan together, and would have killed them had Jedi Master Yoda not arrived to join the fight at the last minute.


Source: Insider #34 (Relaunched)


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 03:57 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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None of those sources coming close to the legitimacy of the AotC novel (bordering on G-Canon) or script (likewise), kek.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 04:02 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
wtf no

I'm gonna guess that Sithmaster is cherrypicking the senior novelization's depiction of the fight, which is from Kenobi's perspective, while ignoring the junior novel's depiction which was objective narration, stating Dooku toyed with Anakin, the multitude of secondary sources that say Dooku was well above Skywalker, or TCW itself where superior versions of Anakin are being stalemated/beaten by Ventress.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 04:09 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sure. Though I can apply the same logic to Sidious as a physical fighter being better suited than Dooku. You also seem to be forgetting Kenobi was going on the offensive when facing Oppress and Maul as he realized he didn't have the stamina to indefinitely hold off Maul and Oppress with his Soresu.



You seem to use and dismiss Shadow Conspiracy as it suits you.

There's nothing in the actual episode about Soresu not being used in his fight against Maul and Opress. In fact the fight doesn't start off with Kenobi suddenly going on the offense to catch Maul/Opress off guard. They are the ones who attack first.

And if you note carefully, apart from the odd jump at each opponent, his offensive is mainly made up of physical attacks, but in terms of Sabers, he's mostly defending himself against both opponents.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Regardless, the flat comparison ILS is trying to draw here doesn't work because Dooku has performed far better as a duelist, and ILS is trying to use the correlation between force power and saber ability as the basis of his argument, against a far superior duo to the one he struggled with in season 3.



No, he outclasses Obi-Wan. He always has, yet clearly the difference between Dooku and Obi-Wan can't (or at least shouldn't) be that huge.

It's either just a clash of styles (Kenobi is forced on the offensive a lot), or Dooku simply knows how best to tackle Obi-Wan.

Put it this way, if I was to judge Maul and Dooku by their fights against Opress, then Maul would come across as the FAR superior duelist.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not very well I'm afraid. sad
An outline of the good Count's wreckage:

-> Skywalker is thrown back several feet in a bladelock:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=57s

-> Then he gets thrown back several feet again:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=59s

-> Anakin is then driven back:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m16s

-> Anakin is forced to cartwheel back after missing Dooku with an overhead swing:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m20s

-> Dooku physically breaches Anakin's guard kicking him against a pillar:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m23s

-> Dooku drives Anakin back despite having Anakin's master behind him:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA

-> Dooku kicks Anakin again, this tike landing a hit on Anakin's skull:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m30s

Simply put, Anakin was outclassed. Dooku steadily drove him back each time the two were alone and even when Anakin had Kenobi helping him, threw him several feet twice in bladelocks, and physically breached his guard twice. Anakin hardly held his own here.



With the semi-exception of the carwheel at the end, Anakin is not once properly floored, disarmed, or in particular need of Obi-Wan to save him.

In fact Obi-Wan even sends Anakin to stop Dooku 1 on 1 right after. I doubt he would do that if he was utterly outclassed.

Just face it, Anakin does far far better against Dooku 1 on 1 (even right after that same fight). And again someone going on the defensive or being driven back by an assault doesn't mean they're outclassed.

If it does, then Dooku was laughably outclassed on Naboo.

At least Anakin actually kick dropeed Dooku right in front of him, and began choking him. Dooku gained no such advantage over Anakin in their S6 fight.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Kenobi didn't do much better though, almost getting kicked of a ledge and then being picked up and thrown the one time he tried to confront Dooku on his own.

To put it simply, Dooku performs far better against a duo who themselves utterly outclass the duo Dooku can barely beat.



Yes Kenobi's never done very well against Dooku. Everyone admits that. But he's always been on the offensive with him, and Makashi is clearly a much better form to take on Soresu than Juyo or Djem So.

Maul performs far better against Opress than Dooku does. So snap.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul did far better than Anakin did here.

Mace being an 8 bordering 9 and Lucas's own statement on the matter ensure he can hold his own in a saber contest, but that part of the fight, where Mace is barely attacked at all doesn't really prove anything. Regardless, the gap between TCW Anakin and Kenobi is nowhere near the gap between Windu and Fisto.

The problem being Anakin himself was battered.



Point being just because one combatant is clearly outclassed, doesn't mean you can blame his partner for that.

Funny, I don't remember seeing Anakin in any kind of pain, or seeing a single bruise on him. So that's a strange definition of battered.

If that was battered then what the heck was Dooku on Naboo?




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Both Oppress and Maul were able to stand next to each other with room to spare and they ended up fighting on separate sides of each other. Oppress had all the room he needed to use the force if he could. What you are referring to from Shadow Conspiracy, which was based off an incomplete script, blatantly contradicts the episode itself and hence can be dismissed.




Nope. I'm referring to the environment we saw on the actual episode.

When Opress force waved Anakin and Obi-Wan there was clear space between them. He did no such thing to them when they were actually clashing Sabers.

That cave was way too tight man. You forget, Opress doesn't have the kind of TK Mastery Maul does, where he can levitate Obi-Wan. He just does massive blasts. Given Kenobi was pinned in between Maul and Opress a lot of the time, how would that even work without him hitting Maul as well?

Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Link what you're talking about? All I saw was Anakin and Kenobi being steadily driven back.



You need to be more observant. Did you never notice how at some point Opress was missing a horn?

Well let's see exactly when that happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxrtPnhNtZE


At 0:10-0:13, right as he engages the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo, Opress has all his horns.

The At 0:35, just as his duel with Anakin/Obi-Wan ends, he has a horn missing. That horn is always missing from then on out.

Yet another example of how being driven back doesn't mean you're losing. Any combatant can decide anytime that it's better to give ground and fight defensively.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And yet after all this growth, he turns out to be little better than fodder to someone who a season later is getting outclassed by Dooku with help.



Clash of styles. Maul handled Opress far easier than both Obi-Wan and Dooku.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 04:27 PM
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Ursumeles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None of those sources coming close to the legitimacy of the AotC novel (bordering on G-Canon) or script (likewise), kek.
I don't say that Anakin wasn't a challenge, I say that Anakin never came close to beating him.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 04:34 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Post-TCW Anakin yes, TCW Anakin? Not so much.

-> Early TCW Anakin is getting stalemated and having his force defenses consistently plowed through by Ventress.

-> In season 6 Dooku clowns Anakin despite Kenobi's help as outlined here:


-> In Dark Disciple facing a superior version of Anakin, Dooku is able to fight him as an equal

The only time when TCW Anakin gave Dooku "serious trouble" would be here:
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=1m38s

At face value, Anakin is driving Dooku back and eventually gains a momentary upperhand before losing it and getting taken out by virtue of the force.

However, looking more deeply into the circumstances of the fight, we get an understanding of why it seems so inconsistent with what TCW itself establishes:

1. Dooku's goal in this fight is to escort Palpatine to his shuttle as quickly as possible. This is why Dooku is constantly retreating backwards and never attempts to press any sort of advantage. Dooku is fighting defensively and is intentionally giving ground so that he can backtrack to his ship.

2. It's arguable that Dooku is being careful not to kill Anakin. Given how Palpatine basically is arranging for this confrontation, it's logical this is a test for Anakin. And it would make sense for Sidious to make sure Dooku doesn't actually harm his opponent.

3. Dooku does fine defending against Anakin until Anakin kicks him down and attempts to choke him to death. It seems to me, Anakin gains an advantage when he draws on the dark side as choking someone is very much a dark-side thing to do and this part of the scene is foreshadowing Anakin's own turn.

4. Anakin is fighting to protect a surrogate father here. As we've seen before, Anakin can perform on another level inconsistent with how he usually performs when someone he cares about is in danger.

An extreme example would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

A milder example would be this:
https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=2m27s

tl:dr: There are a variety of reasons why the second fight in Naboo between Anakin and Dooku has Anakin performing better than we would expect given his other performances vs Dooku in TCW. In general though, Anakin isn't a match for Dooku until after TCW as their fight in season 6 makes rather obvious.





You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Dooku's performance against Anakin on Naboo.

Just because Dooku was retreating towards his ship, doesn't mean he wasn't being forced backwards. He was just falling back in the direction of his choosing. Not that it matters, because like I keep saying, being driven back does not equate to losing. However being drop kicked and getting choked out, does equate to losing.

Filoni said about that fight that he doesn't believe Palpatine would tell Dooku not to kill Anakin. Because if Anakin dies so easily, then he's simply not worthy, and Dooku's the better choice.


The DD fight, was back and forth only from what little Vos saw. Dooku's still a powerful Sith Lord and can get his licks in. Heck that even happened in ROTS. Dooku got his drop kick in before Anakin battered him.

You also seem to be forgetting TCW Movie. Right at the beginning of TCW, Anakin was already a clear challenge to Dooku. Something Ventress was never capable of being solo. So it's clear Anakin just doesn't go all out on Ventress (most of the time).

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 04:39 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
I don't say that Anakin wasn't a challenge, I say that Anakin never came close to beating him.

Anakin wasn't a challenge, per the junior novel, objective narration opposed to the Senior novel which is from Kenobi's perspective, Dooku starts toying with him and later on in TCW, superior versions of Anakin are being stalemated by pre-prime versions of someone who Dooku sh!ts on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VB_vjVxcic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 5th, 2017 at 05:09 PM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 05:00 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You seem to be making a lot of excuses

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So it's clear Anakin just doesn't go all out on Ventress (most of the time).


roll eyes (sarcastic)

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 05:04 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

^ The days of thinking Ventress was on par with TCW Anakin and Obi-Wan are long gone.

Ventress is not match for them or their peers (Maul and Dooku).

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 06:08 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just because Dooku was retreating towards his ship, doesn't mean he wasn't being forced backwards.

Substantiate that Anakin forced him back then.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He was just falling back in the direction of his choosing. Not that it matters, because like I keep saying, being driven back does not equate to losing.

You're missing my point. The most significant gains Dooku made in the season 6 fight with Anakin came as a result of Dooku going on the offense. Hence here, where he's simply retreating, all Dooku can really do is bat away Anakin's powerblows.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
However being drop kicked and getting choked out, does equate to losing.

no Not when the dude you're choking breaks out of the choke hold and throws you off afterwards. All Anakin did here was gain a momentary advantage which he quickly lost. In season 6, when willing to go on the offensive, Dooku shows superiority to Anakin in a variety of ways multiple times.

Simply put, consistently gaining an edge or advantage throughout a fight where you opponent has aid and is willing to attack you is far more impressive than managing to get a temporary advantage which you immediately lose when attacking an opponent who isn't focused on attacking you.

TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku unfortunately sad
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Filoni said about that fight that he doesn't believe Palpatine would tell Dooku not to kill Anakin. Because if Anakin dies so easily, then he's simply not worthy, and Dooku's the better choice.

Quote/Link? If true, fair enough.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The DD fight, was back and forth only from what little Vos saw. Dooku's still a powerful Sith Lord and can get his licks in.

I wonder what the author was thinking when the parts of the fight the reader gets to see show the two as equals. wink
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Heck that even happened in ROTS. Dooku got his drop kick in before Anakin battered him.

Anakin battered him afterwards when he tapped into the darkside, which as I noted in the part of my response you ignored was likely what happened on Naboo.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You also seem to be forgetting TCW Movie. Right at the beginning of TCW, Anakin was already a clear challenge to Dooku.

Nah not really. He ended up on the floor after about 40 seconds and then had his bag sliced despite much of the time being wasted on long blade locks and dialogue. Not to mention we see superior versions of Anakin, in both comics and the show itself, getting stalemated/overpowered by a pre-prime Ventress.

So no, Anakin isn't a challenge for Dooku, at least not without drawing on the darkside.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Something Ventress was never capable of being solo. So it's clear Anakin just doesn't go all out on Ventress (most of the time).

laughing

Anakin hates her and was willing to have her executed even if she surrendered. So I'm going to call bs on that one thor. smile

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 5th, 2017 at 06:22 PM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 06:16 PM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

Registered: Jul 2017
Location: The Sith Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
wtf no


Yes. The novel mentions how Anakin had an opening to kill Dooku, but Dooku managed to back away. He beat Anakin seconds after, though it should be noted Anakin was caught off balance.

I've explained those fights in my Dooku vs Windu CaV on CV. Quotes are all there.


__________________
"Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 06:50 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Anakin's good enough to injure Dooku as of AotC. And in TCW can hold his own.


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Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 07:13 PM
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