I've always found it funny how Dooku struggles so much against pre-prime versions of Ventress and Oppress, and then is able to perform better when facing a duo who's inferior incarnations have managed to display clear superiority to the individuals that make up the former duo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGv2NyRRlEg
As always Dooku's just got Obi-Wan's number. Put it down to a clash of styles. And probably also Kenobi being less effective with his Saber offensive.
Skywalker however held his own. Just as Maul held his own when Kenobi was battering Opress. Just as Mace held his own when Palpatine was blitzing 3 other Council Members.
There's only so much help you can give to your back up.
Opress had no room in that tight cave for a Force Wave. But against Kenobi or Skywalker the Force wave was just delaying the inevitable. In fact the Kenobi/Skywalker duo were slowly chopping Opress up as evidenced by his chopped off horn.
Also you seem to be trying to make out that Opress got weaker over time. He didn't. Dooku confirmed in "Brothers" that he's getting stronger.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 4th, 2017 at 09:16 PM
Sure. Though I can apply the same logic to Sidious as a physical fighter being better suited than Dooku. You also seem to be forgetting Kenobi was going on the offensive when facing Oppress and Maul as he realized he didn't have the stamina to indefinitely hold off Maul and Oppress with his Soresu.
Regardless, the flat comparison ILS is trying to draw here doesn't work because Dooku has performed far better as a duelist, and ILS is trying to use the correlation between force power and saber ability as the basis of his argument, against a far superior duo to the one he struggled with in season 3.
Not very well I'm afraid.
An outline of the good Count's wreckage:
Simply put, Anakin was outclassed. Dooku steadily drove him back each time the two were alone and even when Anakin had Kenobi helping him, threw him several feet twice in bladelocks, and physically breached his guard twice. Anakin hardly held his own here.
Kenobi didn't do much better though, almost getting kicked of a ledge and then being picked up and thrown the one time he tried to confront Dooku on his own.
To put it simply, Dooku performs far better against a duo who themselves utterly outclass the duo Dooku can barely beat.
Maul did far better than Anakin did here.
Mace being an 8 bordering 9 and Lucas's own statement on the matter ensure he can hold his own in a saber contest, but that part of the fight, where Mace is barely attacked at all doesn't really prove anything. Regardless, the gap between TCW Anakin and Kenobi is nowhere near the gap between Windu and Fisto.
The problem being Anakin himself was battered.
Both Oppress and Maul were able to stand next to each other with room to spare and they ended up fighting on separate sides of each other. Oppress had all the room he needed to use the force if he could. What you are referring to from Shadow Conspiracy, which was based off an incomplete script, blatantly contradicts the episode itself and hence can be dismissed.
Link what you're talking about? All I saw was Anakin and Kenobi being steadily driven back.
And yet after all this growth, he turns out to be little better than fodder to someone who a season later is getting outclassed by Dooku with help.
Dooku has a long track record of embarrassing Obi-Wan now, whereas he always has serious issues against Anakin once it's just them. I don't think Sidious would have serious issues against Anakin.
Sidious is so far beyond the guys we're talking about that styles don't even factor in. He just wins.
__________________ “There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.” —Darth Sidious
At face value, Anakin is driving Dooku back and eventually gains a momentary upperhand before losing it and getting taken out by virtue of the force.
However, looking more deeply into the circumstances of the fight, we get an understanding of why it seems so inconsistent with what TCW itself establishes:
1. Dooku's goal in this fight is to escort Palpatine to his shuttle as quickly as possible. This is why Dooku is constantly retreating backwards and never attempts to press any sort of advantage. Dooku is fighting defensively and is intentionally giving ground so that he can backtrack to his ship.
2. It's arguable that Dooku is being careful not to kill Anakin. Given how Palpatine basically is arranging for this confrontation, it's logical this is a test for Anakin. And it would make sense for Sidious to make sure Dooku doesn't actually harm his opponent.
3. Dooku does fine defending against Anakin until Anakin kicks him down and attempts to choke him to death. It seems to me, Anakin gains an advantage when he draws on the dark side as choking someone is very much a dark-side thing to do and this part of the scene is foreshadowing Anakin's own turn.
4. Anakin is fighting to protect a surrogate father here. As we've seen before, Anakin can perform on another level inconsistent with how he usually performs when someone he cares about is in danger.
tl:dr: There are a variety of reasons why the second fight in Naboo between Anakin and Dooku has Anakin performing better than we would expect given his other performances vs Dooku in TCW. In general though, Anakin isn't a match for Dooku until after TCW as their fight in season 6 makes rather obvious.
I'm assuming you're talking about TCW Anakin given the notion of Sidious being far above ROTS Anakin as a swordsman is factually false. While it's true that normally TCW Anakin would be outclassed by Sidious, we have seen Dooku also outclass this version of Anakin and have also seen TCW Anakin get matched by those who Dooku himself outclasses. If Anakin taps into the darkside though, we've seen Anakin can perform on another level. While I don't doubt that Sidious would outperform Dooku against Anakin even in this state, that hardly proves that Sidious is vastly superior to Dooku.
To be clear, I don't disagree with your stance, but restricting Dooku to what we see in season 3 when we see him perform better against a greatly superior duo in season 6 isn't really the best way to argue it.
And nothing here really invalidates the notion of Dooku not being ragdoll fodder to Yoda in AOTC where multiple sources indicate that Dooku isn't ragdoll fodder to him.
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 5th, 2017 at 09:47 AM
Dooku's Oba Diah performance is a terrible outliar. A far inferior duo in Ventress+S3 Savage pressed Dooku to the point where he only held a minimal advantage, and AOTC Kenobi+AOTC Skywalker (guys vastly below their TCW S6 selves) individually gave Dooku grief (Anakin came close to winning in AOTC). Last but not least, TCW S4 Anakin, who's individually below TCW S6 Anakin by a considerable amount, briefly gained the upper hand over Dooku who only tagged Skywalker via cheap-shot.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
I'm gonna guess that Sithmaster is cherrypicking the senior novelization's depiction of the fight, which is from Kenobi's perspective, while ignoring the junior novel's depiction which was objective narration, stating Dooku toyed with Anakin, the multitude of secondary sources that say Dooku was well above Skywalker, or TCW itself where superior versions of Anakin are being stalemated/beaten by Ventress.
You seem to use and dismiss Shadow Conspiracy as it suits you.
There's nothing in the actual episode about Soresu not being used in his fight against Maul and Opress. In fact the fight doesn't start off with Kenobi suddenly going on the offense to catch Maul/Opress off guard. They are the ones who attack first.
And if you note carefully, apart from the odd jump at each opponent, his offensive is mainly made up of physical attacks, but in terms of Sabers, he's mostly defending himself against both opponents.
No, he outclasses Obi-Wan. He always has, yet clearly the difference between Dooku and Obi-Wan can't (or at least shouldn't) be that huge.
It's either just a clash of styles (Kenobi is forced on the offensive a lot), or Dooku simply knows how best to tackle Obi-Wan.
Put it this way, if I was to judge Maul and Dooku by their fights against Opress, then Maul would come across as the FAR superior duelist.
With the semi-exception of the carwheel at the end, Anakin is not once properly floored, disarmed, or in particular need of Obi-Wan to save him.
In fact Obi-Wan even sends Anakin to stop Dooku 1 on 1 right after. I doubt he would do that if he was utterly outclassed.
Just face it, Anakin does far far better against Dooku 1 on 1 (even right after that same fight). And again someone going on the defensive or being driven back by an assault doesn't mean they're outclassed.
If it does, then Dooku was laughably outclassed on Naboo.
At least Anakin actually kick dropeed Dooku right in front of him, and began choking him. Dooku gained no such advantage over Anakin in their S6 fight.
Yes Kenobi's never done very well against Dooku. Everyone admits that. But he's always been on the offensive with him, and Makashi is clearly a much better form to take on Soresu than Juyo or Djem So.
Maul performs far better against Opress than Dooku does. So snap.
Point being just because one combatant is clearly outclassed, doesn't mean you can blame his partner for that.
Funny, I don't remember seeing Anakin in any kind of pain, or seeing a single bruise on him. So that's a strange definition of battered.
If that was battered then what the heck was Dooku on Naboo?
Nope. I'm referring to the environment we saw on the actual episode.
When Opress force waved Anakin and Obi-Wan there was clear space between them. He did no such thing to them when they were actually clashing Sabers.
That cave was way too tight man. You forget, Opress doesn't have the kind of TK Mastery Maul does, where he can levitate Obi-Wan. He just does massive blasts. Given Kenobi was pinned in between Maul and Opress a lot of the time, how would that even work without him hitting Maul as well?
Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.
You need to be more observant. Did you never notice how at some point Opress was missing a horn?
You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Dooku's performance against Anakin on Naboo.
Just because Dooku was retreating towards his ship, doesn't mean he wasn't being forced backwards. He was just falling back in the direction of his choosing. Not that it matters, because like I keep saying, being driven back does not equate to losing. However being drop kicked and getting choked out, does equate to losing.
Filoni said about that fight that he doesn't believe Palpatine would tell Dooku not to kill Anakin. Because if Anakin dies so easily, then he's simply not worthy, and Dooku's the better choice.
The DD fight, was back and forth only from what little Vos saw. Dooku's still a powerful Sith Lord and can get his licks in. Heck that even happened in ROTS. Dooku got his drop kick in before Anakin battered him.
You also seem to be forgetting TCW Movie. Right at the beginning of TCW, Anakin was already a clear challenge to Dooku. Something Ventress was never capable of being solo. So it's clear Anakin just doesn't go all out on Ventress (most of the time).
Anakin wasn't a challenge, per the junior novel, objective narration opposed to the Senior novel which is from Kenobi's perspective, Dooku starts toying with him and later on in TCW, superior versions of Anakin are being stalemated by pre-prime versions of someone who Dooku sh!ts on:
You're missing my point. The most significant gains Dooku made in the season 6 fight with Anakin came as a result of Dooku going on the offense. Hence here, where he's simply retreating, all Dooku can really do is bat away Anakin's powerblows.
Not when the dude you're choking breaks out of the choke hold and throws you off afterwards. All Anakin did here was gain a momentary advantage which he quickly lost. In season 6, when willing to go on the offensive, Dooku shows superiority to Anakin in a variety of ways multiple times.
Simply put, consistently gaining an edge or advantage throughout a fight where you opponent has aid and is willing to attack you is far more impressive than managing to get a temporary advantage which you immediately lose when attacking an opponent who isn't focused on attacking you.
TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku unfortunately
Quote/Link? If true, fair enough.
I wonder what the author was thinking when the parts of the fight the reader gets to see show the two as equals.
Anakin battered him afterwards when he tapped into the darkside, which as I noted in the part of my response you ignored was likely what happened on Naboo.
Nah not really. He ended up on the floor after about 40 seconds and then had his bag sliced despite much of the time being wasted on long blade locks and dialogue. Not to mention we see superior versions of Anakin, in both comics and the show itself, getting stalemated/overpowered by a pre-prime Ventress.
So no, Anakin isn't a challenge for Dooku, at least not without drawing on the darkside.
Anakin hates her and was willing to have her executed even if she surrendered. So I'm going to call bs on that one thor.
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 5th, 2017 at 06:22 PM