We can cherry pick primary sources, the junior novel notes that Dooku even toys with Anakin, or we can stop acting like what was true as of 2005 remains true when superior versions of Anakin need the darkside to overcome a fcking pre-prime Ventress.
The film never indicates Dooku wasn't toying with Anakin so it's irrelevant to bring up. And the senior novel's depiction is from Kenobi's perspective so naturally he would be unaware of Dooku toying with him.
We're also ignoring that Anakin's performance can spike beyond how he usually performs, which again reconciles how inconsistent what Anakin does in AOTC is with what later versions of him do.
Regardless, I'm wondering how you plan on reconciling your belief that AOTC Anakin can challenge Dooku with AOTC Anakin stalemating a version of Ventress who Dooku can do this to: https://youtu.be/MhnY8pU3rFc?t=1m10s
^^^^ If you consider that challenging someone, by all means keep pushing this AOTC Anakin can challenge Dooku thing.
Correction: I use Shadow Conspiracy when it doesn't contradict the episode itself. That's why you won't see me trying and using Maul trying to cheapshot/kill Kenobi, or Kenobi simultaneously shoving aside Maul and Oppress.
Because the episode never outlines what Kenobi is thinking. You are trying to force a contradiction where there isn't one.
Constantly battering your opponent with physical attacks is offensive fighting. Not to mention that physical attacks are a key tenant of ataru. This is not what we see when he is fighting Maul one on one where he waits for an opening to land a hit on Maul and voluntarily gives ground(in the cave he forces Oppress and Maul to give ground rather than letting the two have at him).
There's absolutely nothing that stops a pre-prime Kenobi from being woefully outclassed against Dooku aside from your baseless opinion that he should be close to him.
Or, Dooku's just that good. As it, per Gillard, stylistic edges only become a significant factor for tier 9's like Sidious, Yoda and ROTS Anakin, which is why I was pointing out that Anakin outperformed Yoda with a form advantage.
Which only renders the comparison ILS is trying to draw even more dubious since every other time Maul and Dooku have faced off vs the same people, Dooku, despite usually dealing with superior versions or worse circumstances, performs significantly better than Maul does.
I'll help you here though. Unlike with Dooku's performance in season 6, you can write this inconsistency off as being a result of Maul's knowledge of Tera Kasi and the use of his artificial legs.
Sorry, why is Dooku flooring Anakin with a kick to his skull despite having to deal with Kenobi behind him not an example of properly flooring someone?
Except that, again, Anakin is shown to be inferior again despite them only clashing blades a couple of times:
Nah, every time Anakin is left on his own here he's getting clowned and he still is getting clowned when Dooku has someone else to worry about. TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku it seems
If it does, then Dooku was laughably outclassed on Naboo.
And Djem So is good against Makashi. Since we think styles are such a massive factor in fights, I'm just going to dismiss Dooku's performance against Oppress and Ventress as a result of a form disadvantage, Aight?
Well, no actually, even then that doesn't work because Anakin, who Dooku also clowned has a form advantage.
Mentally battered bro, at the humiliation the Count left him
Not battered, given it was Anakin who was left like a roasted fillet
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 5th, 2017 at 08:39 PM
Now, lets take a look at what Shadow Conspiracy says about how the space being so small hurt them:
^^^^^ Emphasis mine.
We know this is crap because the brothers don't get in each others way. They stay out of each other's way by taking separate sides of Kenobi: https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s
Ah, so your argument is that regardless of Oppress's force abilities, he didn't get an opportunity to tk Kenobi because Kenobi pressed Oppress with his offense?
That's fine with me, because I can argue the exact same thing for Dooku when he had to deal with Ventress and Oppress
Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.
However you play it, lowering what Dooku can do with the force based on his fight with Ventress and Oppress remains a very shaky basis for trying to assert that Sidious is>>>>Dooku. And as you've helped me show, there's more than one reason for this.
Good observation Thor.
Unfortunately, Oppress's performance against Anakin+Kenobi remains far more impressive than his performance against Kenobi with Maul's help. Getting worn down over time against two opponents is still much better than getting wrecked in about 20 seconds by one opponent with backup.
When you're giving ground and you're not able to do anything in return, you're prolly inferior.
Maul didn't have to fight Kenobi while he was taking on Oppress
That doesn't look like a Sith lord who's finished toying with his prey. It's a the depiction of a tired old Count spent of his vigour after a genuine challenge.
It wasn't a stalemate. She lured him to Yavin 4(?) where the moon's darkside nexus aided her until Anakin used the darkside himself, turning the tables completely. This is a showing totally inline with someone who can challenge Dooku, whilst still being his inferior.
Kbro, you truly deserve to be the next sacrificial contribution. Take a break form this board.
ďWe defeated the wrong enemyĒ - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945
In the context of a fictional universe, I would take it to mean any primary source material. Regardless, the highest source of canon remains[SPOILER - highlight to read]: the movies.
Anakin making Dooku bleed blatantly contradicts the movie which means that this part of the script was overwritten. In other words, the part of the fight you're trying to cite here has been written out of continuity
An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. You're going to have to show me an actual contradiction here, one which hasn't been done away with in the final version of the movie.
Both the junior novel and the senior novelization were given the same level of canonicity in pre-Disney continuity. While you may argue the senior novel more inherently has more weight since Lucas worked on it, currently, the junior novel is stronger as it's backed up by a plethora of newer sources, including the junior novel, and better aligns with TCW, high canon, where:
-> Where Ventress notes Kenobi as superior to Anakin despite AOTC suggesting the opposite
-> Where even season 6 Anakin is getting clowned by Dooku with backup.
To put it simply, canon took a new direction with Anakin. The senior novelization's depiction is outdated.
Furthermore, aside from the interpretation being outdated, there's no clear contradiction with the junior novelization's version of events, as the part of the fight where Dooku is stated to toy with Anakin is not depicted from objective narration.
The fallibility of Kenobi's perspective is very much an argument, because the senior novel itself shows Kenobi's perspective to be fallible:
^^^^ Kenobi is shown to be fallible, and hence is perspective isn't sufficient to outweigh objective narration. Whatever authorial intent they may have once been, canon went in a different direction.
The comic also has Dooku wielding two blades and Yoda disarming him. Not to mention that comic depictions of movie fights are regularly inconsistent with what actually happens across the board in other depictions of the fight. Additionally, much like the senior novelization, it's outdated.
I don't need tom, given I don't believe that matters as I've thoroughly explained to you multiple times, when arguing different fights with different combatants.
What matters is the blows you land. Getting floored, getting disarmed, getting KO'd or getting sliced.
Yes as I've argued multiple times, there's absolutely nothing wrong with going on the defense. Even if you're forced on the defense. Arguing over when people are forced on the defence, and when they choose to go on the defence would be completely pointless. What matters is how well their defence holds up, and what blows they themselves land.
Dooku clearly lost the saber fight, and gained the edge through his force powers.
And yes, his force powers only gave him an edge. A decisive edge, sure, but still only an edge. There was no sign or guarantee of Dooku actually winning the fight.
I'm glad you used the word "edge" yourself. Because that's all Dooku was gaining, an edge.
Perhaps Kenobi was getting in Anakin's way a bit. Anakin did after all have to save him a couple of times. So there's no evidence Dooku would do any better if it was Anakin on his own.
So again, it's specifically Obi-Wan who Dooku can deal very well with. Not Anakin. So saying Dooku could deal with Maul+Opress even easier is ludicrous. Because even Opress alone can cause problems for Dooku as we've seen.
Dooku even says to Ventress "You're no match for me without your monster" clearly indicating Ventress and Opress together possibly are a match for him.
TCW series clearly disagrees. All their fights have been back and forth.
It is true but will have to find it. It's from a podcast from around 5 years ago.
You need to be more consistent with your arguments. On this very thread against Ant you're arguing Kenobi's vision of the fight is fallible, but here you're claiming Vos's is reliable because of author intentions.
But it is telling that the fight was back and forth, and not equal. As all their fights have been, including ROTS.
Again, like the being forced on the defensive point, how are we supposed to measure this? How are we supposed to know how much of the darkside Anakin is using at any given point in time, and really what difference does it make if he does tap the dark side? I mean both Dooku and Ventress are also using the darkside right?
And yet Dooku couldn't kill him in that 40 seconds. And we clearly see he did TRY to kill him.
He got him on the floor via a force contest. As usual Dooku's force powers give him the edge. A more decisive edge in TCW movie than later on. But Anakin has always been a challenge to him in Sabers. In TCW movie in fact they already seemed to be peers in that department.
So what if the bag got sliced? Anakin himself didn't get sliced right? He wasn't even bothered about the bag, because there was no hutt baby in it.
You're whole argument seems to rely on his fights with Ventress.
Tell me did Ventress ever actually defeat Anakin? I can tell you right now that she didn't. In fact the the slaves arc comic book he fights off Dooku and Ventress together.
So the logical explanation, given the huge disparity between Dooku and Ventress, and given that Ventress never defeated Anakin, and given that every time Anakin did go all out on Ventress he pretty much stomped... Given all that the only logical explanation is that Anakin usually holds back on Ventress. And substantially so.
Darkside here meaning, going all out
And yet he stomps her every time he really does get pissed. Once in the CW mini, and once in the clone wars comic where she threatened Padme, then he put her into a coma
I think it's clear the only bs is putting Ventress on par with Anakin. That's simply never been the case. Not in Legends or Canon.
I'll respond to your full thing later, but,....
"Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films. "
You've also repeatedly failed to address that ther contradcition you're looking for isn't really there, or how the direction of canon on the topic of aotc anakin vs dooku ahs changed. And how the depiction od the senior novel is incredibly outdated, not only because of sources of less canonical value, but also because of high canon like TCW itself.