KMC Forums

 
  REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Already a member? Log-in!
 
 
Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
Started by: Azronger

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (11): « First ... « 5 6 [7] 8 9 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's good enough to injure Dooku as of AotC. And in TCW can hold his own.
Being able to injure someone indicates you can more than hold your own. confused

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 07:18 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

If you read the AotC script, you'd see they aren't mutually exclusive.


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 07:20 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If you read the AotC script, you'd see they aren't mutually exclusive.

We can cherry pick primary sources, the junior novel notes that Dooku even toys with Anakin, or we can stop acting like what was true as of 2005 remains true when superior versions of Anakin need the darkside to overcome a fcking pre-prime Ventress.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 07:37 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Do you know what a primary source is? The junior novel isn't one.

The film, the script, and the adult novel have the highest canonical authority - Lucas worked on all three personally.

And in all three of those versions, we see Anakin giving Dooku some degree of difficulty. thumb up


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 07:42 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Do you know what a primary source is? The junior novel isn't one.

Since when?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The film, the script, and the adult novel have the highest canonical authority - Lucas worked on all three personally.
[/B]

The film never indicates Dooku wasn't toying with Anakin so it's irrelevant to bring up. And the senior novel's depiction is from Kenobi's perspective so naturally he would be unaware of Dooku toying with him.

We're also ignoring that Anakin's performance can spike beyond how he usually performs, which again reconciles how inconsistent what Anakin does in AOTC is with what later versions of him do.

Regardless, I'm wondering how you plan on reconciling your belief that AOTC Anakin can challenge Dooku with AOTC Anakin stalemating a version of Ventress who Dooku can do this to:
https://youtu.be/MhnY8pU3rFc?t=1m10s

^^^^ If you consider that challenging someone, by all means keep pushing this AOTC Anakin can challenge Dooku thing. wink

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 08:06 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You seem to use and dismiss Shadow Conspiracy as it suits you.

Correction: I use Shadow Conspiracy when it doesn't contradict the episode itself. That's why you won't see me trying and using Maul trying to cheapshot/kill Kenobi, or Kenobi simultaneously shoving aside Maul and Oppress.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
There's nothing in the actual episode about Soresu not being used in his fight against Maul and Opress.

Because the episode never outlines what Kenobi is thinking. You are trying to force a contradiction where there isn't one.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
In fact the fight doesn't start off with Kenobi suddenly going on the offense to catch Maul/Opress off guard. They are the ones who attack first.

Sure, but Kenobi does go on the offense after being attacked...
-> Attacks Oppress here:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m39s

-> Does it again:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m45s

-> Goes on the offense and throws himself against Maul:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m48s

-> Is about to go on the offense again but Maul, having lost control of his temper and drawing on animalistic hatred, blasts him:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=4m47s

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And if you note carefully, apart from the odd jump at each opponent, his offensive is mainly made up of physical attacks, but in terms of Sabers, he's mostly defending himself against both opponents.

Constantly battering your opponent with physical attacks is offensive fighting. Not to mention that physical attacks are a key tenant of ataru. This is not what we see when he is fighting Maul one on one where he waits for an opening to land a hit on Maul and voluntarily gives ground(in the cave he forces Oppress and Maul to give ground rather than letting the two have at him).


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No, he outclasses Obi-Wan. He always has, yet clearly the difference between Dooku and Obi-Wan can't (or at least shouldn't) be that huge.

There's absolutely nothing that stops a pre-prime Kenobi from being woefully outclassed against Dooku aside from your baseless opinion that he should be close to him.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's either just a clash of styles (Kenobi is forced on the offensive a lot), or Dooku simply knows how best to tackle Obi-Wan.

Or, Dooku's just that good. As it, per Gillard, stylistic edges only become a significant factor for tier 9's like Sidious, Yoda and ROTS Anakin, which is why I was pointing out that Anakin outperformed Yoda with a form advantage.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Put it this way, if I was to judge Maul and Dooku by their fights against Opress, then Maul would come across as the FAR superior duelist.

Which only renders the comparison ILS is trying to draw even more dubious since every other time Maul and Dooku have faced off vs the same people, Dooku, despite usually dealing with superior versions or worse circumstances, performs significantly better than Maul does.

I'll help you here though. Unlike with Dooku's performance in season 6, you can write this inconsistency off as being a result of Maul's knowledge of Tera Kasi and the use of his artificial legs. wink
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
With the semi-exception of the carwheel at the end, Anakin is not once properly floored, disarmed, or in particular need of Obi-Wan to save him.

Sorry, why is Dooku flooring Anakin with a kick to his skull despite having to deal with Kenobi behind him not an example of properly flooring someone?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
In fact Obi-Wan even sends Anakin to stop Dooku 1 on 1 right after. I doubt he would do that if he was utterly outclassed.

Except that, again, Anakin is shown to be inferior again despite them only clashing blades a couple of times:

-> Dooku dodges two of Anakin's attacks unarmed:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m49s

->Dooku forces Anakin's blade down and then almost gets his shoulder, throwing Anakin off balance, which is why we see him spinning and flailing about afterwards:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m54
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m55s

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just face it, Anakin does far far better against Dooku 1 on 1 (even right after that same fight). And again someone going on the defensive or being driven back by an assault doesn't mean they're outclassed.


Nah, every time Anakin is left on his own here he's getting clowned and he still is getting clowned when Dooku has someone else to worry about. TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku it seems sad

If it does, then Dooku was laughably outclassed on Naboo.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
At least Anakin actually kick dropeed Dooku right in front of him, and began choking him. Dooku gained no such advantage over Anakin in their S6 fight.

Already addressed:
quote:
no Not when the dude you're choking breaks out of the choke hold and throws you off afterwards. All Anakin did here was gain a momentary advantage which he quickly lost. In season 6, when willing to go on the offensive, Dooku shows superiority to Anakin in a variety of ways, multiple times.

Simply put, consistently gaining an edge or advantage throughout a fight where you opponent has aid and is willing to attack you is far more impressive than managing to get a temporary advantage which you immediately lose when attacking an opponent who isn't focused on attacking you.

TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku unfortunately sad

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes Kenobi's never done very well against Dooku. Everyone admits that. But he's always been on the offensive with him, and Makashi is clearly a much better form to take on Soresu than Juyo or Djem So.

And Djem So is good against Makashi. Since we think styles are such a massive factor in fights, I'm just going to dismiss Dooku's performance against Oppress and Ventress as a result of a form disadvantage, Aight? thumb up

Well, no actually, even then that doesn't work because Anakin, who Dooku also clowned has a form advantage. sad

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul performs far better against Opress than Dooku does. So snap.

Point being just because one combatant is clearly outclassed, doesn't mean you can blame his partner for that.

Addressed.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Funny, I don't remember seeing Anakin in any kind of pain, or seeing a single bruise on him. So that's a strange definition of battered.

Mentally battered bro, at the humiliation the Count left him
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
If that was battered then what the heck was Dooku on Naboo?

Not battered, given it was Anakin who was left like a roasted fillet smile

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 5th, 2017 at 08:39 PM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 08:25 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

Continued

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nope. I'm referring to the environment we saw on the actual episode.


No, you aren't. I don't like having to repeat myself, so please pay attention this time:

-> Maul and Oppress are able to stand side by side here and there is still enough space to fit a person in between them:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m19s

-> When they fight, Maul and Oppress take separate sides of Kenobi which means that Oppress has all the space above to himself:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s

-> While Both Maul and Oppress fight in a direct manner regardless of the cave:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=51s

->...Kenobi is fighting more acrobatically and still has enough space to fully execute his form:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m51s

Now, lets take a look at what Shadow Conspiracy says about how the space being so small hurt them:

quote:
The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall--but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way.

^^^^^ Emphasis mine.
We know this is crap because the brothers don't get in each others way. They stay out of each other's way by taking separate sides of Kenobi:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
When Opress force waved Anakin and Obi-Wan there was clear space between them. He did no such thing to them when they were actually clashing Sabers.

That cave was way too tight man. You forget, Opress doesn't have the kind of TK Mastery Maul does, where he can levitate Obi-Wan. He just does massive blasts. Given Kenobi was pinned in between Maul and Opress a lot of the time, how would that even work without him hitting Maul as well?


Ah, so your argument is that regardless of Oppress's force abilities, he didn't get an opportunity to tk Kenobi because Kenobi pressed Oppress with his offense?

That's fine with me, because I can argue the exact same thing for Dooku when he had to deal with Ventress and Oppress
Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.

However you play it, lowering what Dooku can do with the force based on his fight with Ventress and Oppress remains a very shaky basis for trying to assert that Sidious is>>>>Dooku. And as you've helped me show, there's more than one reason for this. thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor



You need to be more observant. Did you never notice how at some point Opress was missing a horn?

Well let's see exactly when that happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxrtPnhNtZE


At 0:10-0:13, right as he engages the Anakin/Obi-Wan duo, Opress has all his horns.

The At 0:35, just as his duel with Anakin/Obi-Wan ends, he has a horn missing. That horn is always missing from then on out.


Good observation Thor. thumb up

Unfortunately, Oppress's performance against Anakin+Kenobi remains far more impressive than his performance against Kenobi with Maul's help. Getting worn down over time against two opponents is still much better than getting wrecked in about 20 seconds by one opponent with backup.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yet another example of how being driven back doesn't mean you're losing. Any combatant can decide anytime that it's better to give ground and fight defensively.

When you're giving ground and you're not able to do anything in return, you're prolly inferior.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Clash of styles. Maul handled Opress far easier than both Obi-Wan and Dooku.


Maul didn't have to fight Kenobi while he was taking on Oppress erm

Already addressed the Dooku bit thumb up

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 09:15 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


Darth Thor is online now!

That's a lot to reply to, and I'd prefer Az and ILS carry on their debate here...

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 09:25 PM
Click here to Send Darth Thor a Private Message Find more posts by Darth Thor Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's a lot to reply to, and I'd prefer Az and ILS carry on their debate here...

ILS asked me to jump in, so feel free to continue if you want.

Though I understand if that's too much sh!t for you to type

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 09:32 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


Darth Thor is online now!

Alrite. Should reply tomorrow.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 10:21 PM
Click here to Send Darth Thor a Private Message Find more posts by Darth Thor Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Kbro, do us all a favor and google the term "primary source."

The script, which is the highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin making Dooku bleed before being torn apart.

Note that the script makes no indication of Dooku toying with Anakin, which really hampers your argument.

The novel, which is the second highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin giving Dooku a very good fight.

(It should be noted the novel isn't necessarily a primary source either, but Lucas did have a major role in making it.)

The fact it is from Obi-Wan's perspective is not an argument.

Think rationally about it. Explain to me why Lucas would want Kenobi relaying an incorrect version of the fight to the reader.

And then the comic, which would have equal canonical authority to the junior novel, also has Anakin doing very good.


__________________

Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 5th, 2017 at 10:31 PM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 10:29 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
twotter
Restricted

Registered: Aug 2017
Location: Ziggy's Stardust

Account Restricted


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Since when?


Ant answered.

quote:
The film never indicates Dooku wasn't toying with Anakin so it's irrelevant to bring up.


(please log in to view the image)

That doesn't look like a Sith lord who's finished toying with his prey. It's a the depiction of a tired old Count spent of his vigour after a genuine challenge.

quote:
We're also ignoring that Anakin's performance can spike beyond how he usually performs, which again reconciles how inconsistent what Anakin does in AOTC is with what later versions of him do.

Regardless, I'm wondering how you plan on reconciling your belief that AOTC Anakin can challenge Dooku with AOTC Anakin stalemating a version of Ventress who Dooku can do this to:
https://youtu.be/MhnY8pU3rFc?t=1m10s


It wasn't a stalemate. She lured him to Yavin 4(?) where the moon's darkside nexus aided her until Anakin used the darkside himself, turning the tables completely. This is a showing totally inline with someone who can challenge Dooku, whilst still being his inferior.

Kbro, you truly deserve to be the next sacrificial contribution. Take a break form this board.


__________________



ďWe defeated the wrong enemyĒ - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945

Old Post Sep 5th, 2017 11:42 PM
Click here to Send twotter a Private Message Find more posts by twotter Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
ChocolateMuesli
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2017
Location:


 

Nah, that's definitely Dooku being disappointed with their efforts lol.

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 05:24 AM
Click here to Send ChocolateMuesli a Private Message Find more posts by ChocolateMuesli Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kbro, do us all a favor and google the term "primary source."

The script, which is the highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin making Dooku bleed before being torn apart.

In the context of a fictional universe, I would take it to mean any primary source material. Regardless, the highest source of canon remains[SPOILER - highlight to read]: the movies.

Anakin making Dooku bleed blatantly contradicts the movie which means that this part of the script was overwritten. In other words, the part of the fight you're trying to cite here has been written out of continuity sad
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Note that the script makes no indication of Dooku toying with Anakin, which really hampers your argument.

An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. You're going to have to show me an actual contradiction here, one which hasn't been done away with in the final version of the movie. erm
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The novel, which is the second highest definitive interpretation of that fight canonically, has Anakin giving Dooku a very good fight.

(It should be noted the novel isn't necessarily a primary source either, but Lucas did have a major role in making it.)

Both the junior novel and the senior novelization were given the same level of canonicity in pre-Disney continuity. While you may argue the senior novel more inherently has more weight since Lucas worked on it, currently, the junior novel is stronger as it's backed up by a plethora of newer sources, including the junior novel, and better aligns with TCW, high canon, where:

-> Even season 2 Anakin was being blasted telekinetically and stalemated in sabers by an inferior Ventress to the one who Dooku dropped in 20 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q

-> Where Ventress notes Kenobi as superior to Anakin despite AOTC suggesting the opposite

-> Where even season 6 Anakin is getting clowned by Dooku with backup.

To put it simply, canon took a new direction with Anakin. The senior novelization's depiction is outdated.

Furthermore, aside from the interpretation being outdated, there's no clear contradiction with the junior novelization's version of events, as the part of the fight where Dooku is stated to toy with Anakin is not depicted from objective narration.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact it is from Obi-Wan's perspective is not an argument.

Think rationally about it. Explain to me why Lucas would want Kenobi relaying an incorrect version of the fight to the reader.

The fallibility of Kenobi's perspective is very much an argument, because the senior novel itself shows Kenobi's perspective to be fallible:
quote:
Obi-Wanís heart leapt in hope as Anakin charged forward suddenly, bringing his green blade over his shoulder and across, down at the Count. Obi-Wan understood immediately, even before he noted Anakinís blue blade coming up and over the other way-the green blade would push the Countís lightsaber out of the way, clearing the path for the victorious strike! But Dooku retracted impossibly fast, and Anakinís down-cutting green blade hit nothing but air. Dooku stabbed straight ahead, intercepting the blue blade. The Countís hand worked up inside and over, then back around with a sudden twist, launching the blue lightsaber from Anakinís grasp. Dooku went on the offensive immediately, driving the surprised and off-balance Anakin back. Anakin fought hard to regain his fighting posture, but Dooku was relentless, thrusting repeatedly, keeping the young Padawan stumbling backward. And then he stopped, suddenly, and almost on reflex, Anakin turned back on him, roaring and slashing hard.

^^^^ Kenobi is shown to be fallible, and hence is perspective isn't sufficient to outweigh objective narration. Whatever authorial intent they may have once been, canon went in a different direction.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And then the comic, which would have equal canonical authority to the junior novel, also has Anakin doing very good.

The comic also has Dooku wielding two blades and Yoda disarming him. Not to mention that comic depictions of movie fights are regularly inconsistent with what actually happens across the board in other depictions of the fight. Additionally, much like the senior novelization, it's outdated.

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 10:45 AM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


Darth Thor is online now!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Substantiate that Anakin forced him back then.



I don't need tom, given I don't believe that matters as I've thoroughly explained to you multiple times, when arguing different fights with different combatants.

What matters is the blows you land. Getting floored, getting disarmed, getting KO'd or getting sliced.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You're missing my point. The most significant gains Dooku made in the season 6 fight with Anakin came as a result of Dooku going on the offense. Hence here, where he's simply retreating, all Dooku can really do is bat away Anakin's powerblows.



Yes as I've argued multiple times, there's absolutely nothing wrong with going on the defense. Even if you're forced on the defense. Arguing over when people are forced on the defence, and when they choose to go on the defence would be completely pointless. What matters is how well their defence holds up, and what blows they themselves land.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
no Not when the dude you're choking breaks out of the choke hold and throws you off afterwards. All Anakin did here was gain a momentary advantage which he quickly lost. In season 6, when willing to go on the offensive, Dooku shows superiority to Anakin in a variety of ways multiple times.



Dooku clearly lost the saber fight, and gained the edge through his force powers.

And yes, his force powers only gave him an edge. A decisive edge, sure, but still only an edge. There was no sign or guarantee of Dooku actually winning the fight.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Simply put, consistently gaining an edge or advantage throughout a fight where you opponent has aid and is willing to attack you is far more impressive than managing to get a temporary advantage which you immediately lose when attacking an opponent who isn't focused on attacking you.



I'm glad you used the word "edge" yourself. Because that's all Dooku was gaining, an edge.

Perhaps Kenobi was getting in Anakin's way a bit. Anakin did after all have to save him a couple of times. So there's no evidence Dooku would do any better if it was Anakin on his own.

So again, it's specifically Obi-Wan who Dooku can deal very well with. Not Anakin. So saying Dooku could deal with Maul+Opress even easier is ludicrous. Because even Opress alone can cause problems for Dooku as we've seen.

Dooku even says to Ventress "You're no match for me without your monster" clearly indicating Ventress and Opress together possibly are a match for him.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku unfortunately sad



TCW series clearly disagrees. All their fights have been back and forth.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Quote/Link? If true, fair enough.




It is true but will have to find it. It's from a podcast from around 5 years ago.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I wonder what the author was thinking when the parts of the fight the reader gets to see show the two as equals. wink



You need to be more consistent with your arguments. On this very thread against Ant you're arguing Kenobi's vision of the fight is fallible, but here you're claiming Vos's is reliable because of author intentions.

But it is telling that the fight was back and forth, and not equal. As all their fights have been, including ROTS.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Anakin battered him afterwards when he tapped into the darkside, which as I noted in the part of my response you ignored was likely what happened on Naboo.



Again, like the being forced on the defensive point, how are we supposed to measure this? How are we supposed to know how much of the darkside Anakin is using at any given point in time, and really what difference does it make if he does tap the dark side? I mean both Dooku and Ventress are also using the darkside right?


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nah not really. He ended up on the floor after about 40 seconds and then had his bag sliced despite much of the time being wasted on long blade locks and dialogue.



And yet Dooku couldn't kill him in that 40 seconds. And we clearly see he did TRY to kill him.

He got him on the floor via a force contest. As usual Dooku's force powers give him the edge. A more decisive edge in TCW movie than later on. But Anakin has always been a challenge to him in Sabers. In TCW movie in fact they already seemed to be peers in that department.

So what if the bag got sliced? Anakin himself didn't get sliced right? He wasn't even bothered about the bag, because there was no hutt baby in it.





quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention we see superior versions of Anakin, in both comics and the show itself, getting stalemated/overpowered by a pre-prime Ventress.



You're whole argument seems to rely on his fights with Ventress.

Tell me did Ventress ever actually defeat Anakin? I can tell you right now that she didn't. In fact the the slaves arc comic book he fights off Dooku and Ventress together.

So the logical explanation, given the huge disparity between Dooku and Ventress, and given that Ventress never defeated Anakin, and given that every time Anakin did go all out on Ventress he pretty much stomped... Given all that the only logical explanation is that Anakin usually holds back on Ventress. And substantially so.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
So no, Anakin isn't a challenge for Dooku, at least not without drawing on the darkside.

laughing



Darkside here meaning, going all out erm


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Anakin hates her and was willing to have her executed even if she surrendered. So I'm going to call bs on that one thor. smile



And yet he stomps her every time he really does get pissed. Once in the CW mini, and once in the clone wars comic where she threatened Padme, then he put her into a coma erm


I think it's clear the only bs is putting Ventress on par with Anakin. That's simply never been the case. Not in Legends or Canon.

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 01:41 PM
Click here to Send Darth Thor a Private Message Find more posts by Darth Thor Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

Thor, do you want me to wait for you to finish your response?

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 02:27 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


Darth Thor is online now!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Thor, do you want me to wait for you to finish your response?



Yeah otherwise I'll we'll get in a back and forth and you'll say I've ignored certain things. Should be done today.

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 06:05 PM
Click here to Send Darth Thor a Private Message Find more posts by Darth Thor Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
In the context of a fictional universe, I would take it to mean any primary source material. Regardless, the highest source of canon remains[SPOILER - highlight to read]: the movies.

Anakin making Dooku bleed blatantly contradicts the movie which means that this part of the script was overwritten. In other words, the part of the fight you're trying to cite here has been written out of continuity sad

An absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence. You're going to have to show me an actual contradiction here, one which hasn't been done away with in the final version of the movie. erm

Both the junior novel and the senior novelization were given the same level of canonicity in pre-Disney continuity. While you may argue the senior novel more inherently has more weight since Lucas worked on it, currently, the junior novel is stronger as it's backed up by a plethora of newer sources, including the junior novel, and better aligns with TCW, high canon, where:

-> Even season 2 Anakin was being blasted telekinetically and stalemated in sabers by an inferior Ventress to the one who Dooku dropped in 20 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q

-> Where Ventress notes Kenobi as superior to Anakin despite AOTC suggesting the opposite

-> Where even season 6 Anakin is getting clowned by Dooku with backup.

To put it simply, canon took a new direction with Anakin. The senior novelization's depiction is outdated.

Furthermore, aside from the interpretation being outdated, there's no clear contradiction with the junior novelization's version of events, as the part of the fight where Dooku is stated to toy with Anakin is not depicted from objective narration.

The fallibility of Kenobi's perspective is very much an argument, because the senior novel itself shows Kenobi's perspective to be fallible:

^^^^ Kenobi is shown to be fallible, and hence is perspective isn't sufficient to outweigh objective narration. Whatever authorial intent they may have once been, canon went in a different direction.

The comic also has Dooku wielding two blades and Yoda disarming him. Not to mention that comic depictions of movie fights are regularly inconsistent with what actually happens across the board in other depictions of the fight. Additionally, much like the senior novelization, it's outdated.


(please log in to view the image)

The adult novelization is recognized as essentially G-Canon, given Lucas himself considers it apart of his story.

(please log in to view the image)

On the subject of junior novels, given Chee explicitly put them in C-Canon category, we can assume Lucas did not work on that.

Granted, he also said novels are C-Canon, but I am operating under the assumption he wasn't including movie novels in such statement.

Again, this is because we also have statements by him putting "movie novelizations" in the same category as the films, radio plays, scripts, etc.

---

Anywho, if you want to play the contradiction card, again it's worth noting Lucas worked on it himself, so any contradiction is not a true contradiction, so to speak, since he still recognized it.

Nevertheless, if we want to go strictly by the movie as absolute and then sources that perfectly are in-line with the movie, I assure you I can find issues in the junior novel.

Also, you've shown nothing thus far that diminishes the credibility of the adult novelization version of the fight, so you'll have to try harder.

For the film specifically, there is no way to exactly know, hence why we then resort not to the junior novel, but the script and adult novel, for reference to what's going on.


__________________

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 06:11 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

I'll respond to your full thing later, but,....
"Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films.[34] "

You've also repeatedly failed to address that ther contradcition you're looking for isn't really there, or how the direction of canon on the topic of aotc anakin vs dooku ahs changed. And how the depiction od the senior novel is incredibly outdated, not only because of sources of less canonical value, but also because of high canon like TCW itself.

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 06:28 PM
Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Did you just quote Wookiee? Worst yet, the [34] directed me to a Gizmodo page.


__________________

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 06:39 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 01:15 AM.
Pages (11): « First ... « 5 6 [7] 8 9 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< Contact Us - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Forum powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.