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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Did you just quote Wookiee? Worst yet, the [34] directed me to a Gizmodo page.
wait, what did you quote?
cite your source

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 06:41 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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Which part?


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Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 06:42 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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that screenshot.

And yea I'm not sure why you're disputing that what Lucas recognizes in the movie itself overwrites what he recognizes in a earlier script

Old Post Sep 6th, 2017 06:45 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Correction: I use Shadow Conspiracy when it doesn't contradict the episode itself. That's why you won't see me trying and using Maul trying to cheapshot/kill Kenobi, or Kenobi simultaneously shoving aside Maul and Oppress.

Because the episode never outlines what Kenobi is thinking. You are trying to force a contradiction where there isn't one.



No you've used it to say he had to forge his normal style to catch his opponents off guard. But that's not what happened. The fight starts with both brothers on the attack and Kenobi defending himself.


From Shadow Conspiracy:

Obi-Wan knew the Sith would expect him to take up a defensive stance in an effort to keep them both at bay. But he also knew that tactic would give him no hope to prevail-he would be worn down until his guard slipped and then he would die, like Adi had.

“Surrender,” Maul said quietly. “We are two, and you are no match for us both.”

Obi-Wan ignited both Adi’s lightsaber and his own.

“You are mistaken,” he said-and then he hurled himself at the two Sith, both sabers flashing in his hands.

The two Sith fell back, startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attacks.



This clearly contradicts the actual episode, where right after Obi-Wan says you are mistaken, he still waits for Maul and Opress to attack.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sure, but Kenobi does go on the offense after being attacked...
-> Attacks Oppress here:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m39s

-> Does it again:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m45s

-> Goes on the offense and throws himself against Maul:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m48s

-> Is about to go on the offense again but Maul, having lost control of his temper and drawing on animalistic hatred, blasts him:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=4m47s



It's actually pretty normal for Prequel Kenobi to attack. I don't know why you're trying to make out that's some strange thing he's doing-

From the very last episode and their very last fight:

-> Obi-Wan and Maul start the fight by attacking each other at the same time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2m25s

->Attacks Opress
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2m33s

->Attacks Maul again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2m35s

e.t.c.
-> Goes on the offensive against Ventress several times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1m11s


and again here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2m30s


goes on the offensive several times against Dooku:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=0m49s


and again here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1m08s


and before you say he HAS TO to keep up with Anakin, not necessarily. Him and Anakin were on opposite sides of Dooku here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1m45s


Besides it shouldn't matter, given you're using these same examples to prove Dooku >>> Kenobi?


Now clearly, Kenobi does usually fight better when he fights defensively, but fact is it's very much in character for him to fight offensively as well as of the Prequel era at least. And his fight against Maul and Opress was clearly a perfect blend of all his defensive and offensive maneuvres, so much so that he fought much better here than he did against Maul solo earlier in the same episode when he was more on the defensive.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Constantly battering your opponent with physical attacks is offensive fighting. Not to mention that physical attacks are a key tenant of ataru. This is not what we see when he is fighting Maul one on one where he waits for an opening to land a hit on Maul and voluntarily gives ground(in the cave he forces Oppress and Maul to give ground rather than letting the two have at him).



Again, Physical attacks is something Kenobi does quite a bit. He just used it earlier on Maul outside in fact, just before a massive attack on Opress erm



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
There's absolutely nothing that stops a pre-prime Kenobi from being woefully outclassed against Dooku aside from your baseless opinion that he should be close to him.



Yeah nothing except his far superior performances against Opress and Anakin. Heck his TCW Movie showing even has him outclassing Ventress to a similar degree that Dooku outclasses her.





quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sorry, why is Dooku flooring Anakin with a kick to his skull despite having to deal with Kenobi behind him not an example of properly flooring someone?



Because it did nothing significant to Anakin.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Except that, again, Anakin is shown to be inferior again despite them only clashing blades a couple of times:

-> Dooku dodges two of Anakin's attacks unarmed:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m49s

->Dooku forces Anakin's blade down and then almost gets his shoulder, throwing Anakin off balance, which is why we see him spinning and flailing about afterwards:
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m54
https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=2m55s




Anakin shown to be slightly inferior, because he got hit a couple of times. But given those hits had no major effect on Anakin at all, it again just portrays Dooku has having only an "edge" over Anakin. At least for that particular fight.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nah, every time Anakin is left on his own here he's getting clowned and he still is getting clowned when Dooku has someone else to worry about. TCW Anakin isn't a peer of Dooku it seems sad

If it does, then Dooku was laughably outclassed on Naboo.




You have a very strange definition of being clowned and outclassed.

Dooku tried to kill Anakin in TCW movie and utterly failed. He also showed no superiority in Sabers.

Dock failed to capture Anakin alone in S4 Shadow Warrior, and needed help from multiple magna guards to gain superiority.

Anakin WON he Saber fight in S4 Crisis on Naboo, and it was only Dooku's force powers which helped him survive and which gave him an edge.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Already addressed:




You've completely ignored that Anakin WON the sober fight. Dock's force powers were required to even the odds.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And Djem So is good against Makashi. Since we think styles are such a massive factor in fights, I'm just going to dismiss Dooku's performance against Oppress and Ventress as a result of a form disadvantage, Aight? thumb up

Well, no actually, even then that doesn't work because Anakin, who Dooku also clowned has a form advantage. sad




So are you denying clash of styles?


If you are then Maul's clearly superior to Dooku given how they both faired against Opress.

If not, then you must consider Kenobi is only losing to Dooku because of that. Because going by other fights, there clearly shouldn't be a massive gap there.

For the record it's not just about clash of styles. Sometimes a combatant just has someone's number down. This was very much the case with Rebels Kenobi vs Maul. Suckering Maul with Qui-Gon's stance showed he knew exactly how to deal with Maul in particular.

Old Post Sep 7th, 2017 10:50 PM
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Darth Thor
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^ Damn it my time stamps haven't worked at all. Not even taking you to the video.


And I can't even edit. It's all blank!

Old Post Sep 7th, 2017 10:54 PM
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Darth Thor
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Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 7th, 2017 at 11:05 PM

Old Post Sep 7th, 2017 11:00 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

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Continued- Last Part



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Continued



No, you aren't. I don't like having to repeat myself, so please pay attention this time:



Irony

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Maul and Oppress are able to stand side by side here and there is still enough space to fit a person in between them:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m19s

-> When they fight, Maul and Oppress take separate sides of Kenobi which means that Oppress has all the space above to himself:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s

-> While Both Maul and Oppress fight in a direct manner regardless of the cave:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=51s

->...Kenobi is fighting more acrobatically and still has enough space to fully execute his form:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m51s




Not sure exactly what you're trying to prove here, or what you're arguing.

Press using his beastly TK waves in that cave would have been harder (just like on the ship in Revenge against Ventress), with Maul in the same vicinity and the positions of all 3 combatants continuously shifting.

His TK waves are quite widespread and not as focused or masterful as Maul's, hence why Maul utilised his at times, but Opress couldn't do much, even when Kenobi was focused on Maul.

And for the record, Kenobi was much smaller than either brother at the time. So of course manoeuvring would be easier to him.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Now, lets take a look at what Shadow Conspiracy says about how the space being so small hurt them:


^^^^^ Emphasis mine.
We know this is crap because the brothers don't get in each others way. They stay out of each other's way by taking separate sides of Kenobi:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s




I never picked out this line from SC as any kind of proof. I pointed out that firstly your cherry picking parts of the book that you like. I've already shown Kenobi isn't the one to initiate the offensive as stated in the book to take the brothers by surprise.

I've also given my own logical reasons why the cave would be disadvantageous to the brothers. Maul's chicken legs are already confirmed to be limiting his martial arts and acrobatics. They will only be even more limited in tight spaces.

Opress's Force Waves will be harder to utilise as well. And Soresu is confirmed in Canon to only require limited space, so Kenobi wouldn't have been disadvantaged at all, except of course in being outnumbered.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ah, so your argument is that regardless of Oppress's force abilities, he didn't get an opportunity to tk Kenobi because Kenobi pressed Oppress with his offense?



Yes, especially in that tight space. When he TK hit both Anakin and Obi-Wan they were at a distance from him. When he choked Ventress and Dooku they were also at a distance and distracted. When he waved them the second time, they were attempting to close the distance. Also in all those cases, he could just wave everyone/everything in site, as he had no allies.

When he TK'd Adi, she was close buy, but there was no Maul in the way. And it was the move he used to gain the advantage. It wasn't his opening move.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That's fine with me, because I can argue the exact same thing for Dooku when he had to deal with Ventress and Oppress
Besides he wasn't getting much opportunity, given Kenobi was all over him kicking his knees in.




Oh Dooku certainly had ample opportunity to TK Pin both Opress and Ventress. The fight began with both combatants in front of him at a bit of distance.

He simply knew he couldn't.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
However you play it, lowering what Dooku can do with the force based on his fight with Ventress and Oppress remains a very shaky basis for trying to assert that Sidious is>>>>Dooku. And as you've helped me show, there's more than one reason for this. thumb up



There's no shaky comparison at all. Dooku clearly put in effort just to keep Opress at bay with his Force powers. And that was a combination of TK and FL. It also took him similar effort to subdue Ventress with his force powers in their 1 v 1, again a combination of TK and FL.

Compare that to Sidious casually TKing (without FL) and crushing a much stronger duo combined while laughing. There's really no comparison. So Sidious ragdolling Dooku was pretty consistent with what we've previously seen. Sure it might take him more effort than it took to TK Maul. But there's really no reason to believe it would take him much more effort than it took to Pin Maul+Opress.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Good observation Thor. thumb up

Unfortunately, Oppress's performance against Anakin+Kenobi remains far more impressive than his performance against Kenobi with Maul's help. Getting worn down over time against two opponents is still much better than getting wrecked in about 20 seconds by one opponent with backup.




Or perhaps it was Kenobi who was performing much better. He's likely improved from S3 to S5, has faced Opress multiple times by then, so is much more ready, plus was even more focused after Adi's death. Did Kenobi ever have that peak level of focus against Dooku? Doubt it.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
When you're giving ground and you're not able to do anything in return, you're prolly inferior.



Too much speculation involved there. There's no way to objectively measure how much a person is being forced back, and how much they are willingly giving ground.

Given that, unless the losing ground actually leads to something after, all that's really important is how well their defences are holding up, and how capably they continue to parry the blows of the person on the offensive.





quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul didn't have to fight Kenobi while he was taking on Oppress erm




Maul disarmed Opress out in 2 parries and a wrist lock.

Kenobi traded several blow with Opress one on one whilst Maul was at a distance. Maul clearly performed better against Opress than either Kenobi or Dooku.

That doesn't mean he's superior to either one. It just mean clash of styles and do exist and do matter. Every fight is different.

Heck just look at Rebels Maul vs Rebels Kenobi. You yourself have admitted the difference isn't nearly as big as it initially seemed. So a seeming stomp doesn't necessitate a massive difference between combatants.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 9th, 2017 at 01:47 PM

Old Post Sep 9th, 2017 01:44 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor

Heck just look at Rebels Maul vs Rebels Kenobi. You yourself have admitted the difference isn't nearly as big as it initially seemed. So a seeming stomp doesn't necessitate a massive difference between combatants. [/B]

Honestly, I might not respond to the entire thing since life is getting busier and these posts are getting really long.

However this isn't a good example of anything. Ben Kenobi vs Maul was specifically supposed to be a different style of fighting, was stated to be shorter because the characters have fought each other numerous times before. The intent behind this fight doesn't apply to other fights in the mythos.

Old Post Sep 9th, 2017 01:49 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Honestly, I might not respond to the entire thing since life is getting busier and these posts are getting really long.

However this isn't a good example of anything. Ben Kenobi vs Maul was specifically supposed to be a different style of fighting, was stated to be shorter because the characters have fought each other numerous times before. The intent behind this fight doesn't apply to other fights in the mythos.



Authorial intent behind a specific fight is one thing. But then it takes part in a larger universe and starts adding to cases of very short fights not necessarily meaning the gap between combatants is huge. Another example would be Maul vs Opress. Now sure Maul is solidly above Opress, but that just made Opress look like Maul's dealing with a youngling or something. Heck I'm sure S1 Ahsoka could have done better.

But Even going by authorial comments, Kenobi suckered Maul in with Qui-Gon's stance. So point is, it was simply the wrong fight for Maul, as Kenobi knew just how to deal with him.

With Dooku and Kenobi it could be a combination of things- clash of styles, and Dooku just having his number down pretty well.

Old Post Sep 9th, 2017 02:18 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Authorial intent behind a specific fight is one thing. But then it takes part in a larger universe and starts adding to cases of very short fights not necessarily meaning the gap between combatants is huge.

Unless the other fights in the mythos were styled in the same way as Kenobi vs Maul for the same out of and in universe reasons, they can't be explained in the same way.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Another example would be Maul vs Opress. Now sure Maul is solidly above Opress, but that just made Opress look like Maul's dealing with a youngling or something. Heck I'm sure S1 Ahsoka could have done better.

Which can be explained with tera kasi or Maul being able to leverage his unique legs. Regardless, it has nothing to do with what Ben vs Maul special.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
But Even going by authorial comments, Kenobi suckered Maul in with Qui-Gon's stance. So point is, it was simply the wrong fight for Maul, as Kenobi knew just how to deal with him.

Which is fine, it only strengthens my point.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
With Dooku and Kenobi it could be a combination of things- clash of styles, and Dooku just having his number down pretty well.

The only thing present here is a style advantage, which hardly makes up for Kenobi having backup

Old Post Sep 9th, 2017 02:23 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

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@ILS

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
He's much more powerful than them individually, but I'm not totally convinced he is so powerful he would merk them as a team. He has to split his attention between both of them, which takes a lot of brain power - as is seen during the fight, where he has to divert all his attention to Savage to use his lightning, before re-engaging Ventress.


Um, no, Dooku is pretty good at multitasking with the Force:

(please log in to view the image)

quote:
Someone of Dooku's calibre pimp slapping two elite Force users at the same time is unprecedented, however far beyond them he may be on an individual or even collective basis. Your maths seems to make sense on paper, but does that mean in practice it's going to work out? I think there's a reason Sidious is among the only Sith who have that kind of showing. The only others were brief bursts of rage from Savage and Ventress.


Dooku just pimp slapped three elite Force users. Not to compare the two Nightsisters with Savage individually, but they were noted to be the best on Dathomir, and there were two of them plus Ventress, and Dooku was poisoned, drugged, and exhausted, so it's a pretty good feat.

quote:
As you've argued already, it only takes Dooku one finger to constrict Ventress - in fact, since you no longer believe in that showing, Dooku needs to duel and Force push her first, then ragdoll her. Equally you've suggested it took him little effort to constrain Savage.


How does Dooku need to duel Ventress before ragdolling her? How does that make any sense? In my gif it's apparent Dooku could pin her to a wall and disarm her rather casually anytime he wanted. Dueling has nought to do with it.

He seemed to require even less effort to choke Savage:

(please log in to view the image)

quote:
How is it that in his many moments of respite (they engaged him one at a time for the most part) he didn't just pin them both? I'm not convinced that them having lightsabers in their hands prevented that from happening. Unlike with Yoda, Dooku would have absolutely no inhibitions from pinning them both if he could.


I don’t know. One could also ask why even drew his saber in the first place, when he’s fully capable of dodging them both at once unarmed. Or why he didn’t Force rape Kenobi in their duel on Oba Diah despite being fully capable of doing so to an even more powerful Kenobi while having a far more powerful Anakin breathing down his neck too. Or why he didn’t wreck Anakin with the Force in the TCW movie even though Ventress did... The answer is that characters often don’t act logically in duels, because the choreographers prioritize entertainment and cool factor over logic. Which is why you have Maul struggling with Sugi, a dog, and Pre Vizsla; and Anakin struggling with Hondo, etc. Dave Filoni has admitted this himself. This is why I don’t subscribe to the notion of “morals on” or “morals off” in a battle forum setting, because if you solely judge based on their so-called “morals”, on how they are depicted fighting in the stories themselves, every character is essentially an idiot and only use their Force powers at completely random and inconsistent intervals. I personally just look at characters’ list of abilities, feats and accolades, and ignore fighting choreography or how they use said abilities and when.

quote:
Anyway... I think I'm being a little generous here. Let's just go straight to the evidence and look at this practically. A Force user's command of the Force is the core factor in how the fight will play out. It factors into both TK and dueling.

In terms of both TK and dueling, there are numerous quotes suggesting that Sidious toyed with the Maul brothers (I believe you're familiar with them). So, whether they're attacking him with lightsabers or the Force, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, right?

Let's compare that to how a rookie Savage and Ventress are described as matching up to Dooku:





And there's others describing Dooku as too powerful for them to beat/was powerful enough to escape. So, from what we can tell, Dooku "barely" had "the edge" over their combined might.

Going by this description, if Dooku was faced with Darth Maul (a clearly superior combatant to Ventress) and a much more experienced and well trained Savage, his defeat would be certain.


You are using Canon material here, when I was only agreeing to Legends. Of course in Canon Dooku would be casually flattened to a wall by Sidious or Yoda. One must simply look at how Mother Talzin, a peer of Sidious, handled Dooku and that’s obvious.

But if you want to discuss this in context of the continuity from which the idea of Dooku being a match for Yoda originates, let me know.

quote:
You make the excuse that "if it was just a Force fight" - but it is a Force fight. Their command of the Force manifests not just in their TK, but in their dueling skill, and all parties here have demonstrated an interest in training their dueling skill as best as they can.

The difference between Sidious and Dooku is that, when he's fighting Maul and Savage, it doesn't matter what category we're discussing - he will dominate.

Dooku, on the other hand, would surely lose a lightsaber contest not by merit of a skill or physical deficiency (Sidious is an old midget with less lightsaber experience than Dooku), but because his command of the Force isn't greater than Maul and Savage's combined. Similarly, his command of the Force regarding TK isn't greater than their's combined, and I see no evidence to suggest as much. Whatever his power with TK is, it barely saved him from Savage and Ventress, so surely it won't save him here, let alone against Sidious.


It didn’t save him against Ventress and Savage, because he didn’t even use it there. Other than that, I don’t see your point here. Dooku has multiple quotes suggesting he was powerful enough to avoid being ragdolled by Yoda. That’s plenty more command of the Force and TK power than Maul and Savage combined.

quote:
I also believe Yoda wanted to kill Dooku... that doesn't mean he has to adhere to the most efficient method of killing him. He isn't a Sith. There are countless scenarios where party X could kill party Y using TK, but chooses to kill/maim them in a different way. This is especially characteristic of Jedi, because they aren't vicious butchers who ragdoll and rip apart their opponents with TK: they aren't even encouraged to grip their opponents with TK, only manipulate the environment around them to win, e.g throwing objects or deflecting lightning back to the sender. The most they tend to do, if they're behaving, is send a wave of Force energy at their enemy.

You're always falling into this trap of "if he could have, he would have" - but if you evaluate what is going on in the mind of the character, their values and moral codes, rather than looking at their behaviour through the lens of a battle forum scenario, you would see why not everything happens the way that'd make most practical sense.

Yoda's goal is to kill Dooku, but he's not going to Force choke/ragdoll him to do it. Again, he's not a Sith. He resorted to using his lightsaber because he wouldn't be able to defeat Dooku just by passively deflecting every Force attack that comes his way. You're assuming Yoda is willing to employ every form of brutal violence to gain victory, when really, Jedi are incredibly restrained Force users at the best of times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnZaNNY_arU

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...42379-47703.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...61331-47705.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...6-yoda+push.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...hes+sidious.gif


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2017 05:14 PM
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Azronger
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quote:
I'll concede Dooku has better accolades than Maul, especially considering the ones you posted below comparing them directly. But I don't think comparing their bouts against Obi-Wan is a great comparison: Obi-Wan's style plays directly into Dooku's hands, meanwhile Soresu is your best bet for stonewalling Juyo. On the other hand, Maul's fighting style and personal attributes are far more problematic for Dooku than Obi-Wan's, due to his impressive striking power, fanatical levels of aggression, choppy, unpredictable striking patterns etc.

Anyway, whether Dooku beats Maul and by how much is one debate. You need to prove he can emphatically defeat Maul and Savage with regards to telekinesis, with such a disparity that a Sidious who, not toying around, not smiling and laughing, but really trying to kill Dooku, cannot break his Force shields and ragdoll him. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


My extraordinary evidence is here:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

--Fact File


quote:
Maul was also intended to take the reigns from Sidious should he need to one day, and was a real apprentice from day one. Your quote doesn't say Dooku has equal Force potential to Yoda, it says he's universally respected and one day would have been a Master on par with Yoda... in an unknown capacity. Given the context of Dooku's description - his reputation in the Order - it seems like the quote is saying one day Dooku would have had the same respect as Yoda among the Jedi, but instead of attaining that reputation, he joined the Jedi's enemies. Similar to the quotes saying Yoda and Mace should be held in equal regard as council members.

Lol, even if we take the quote the way you want it to be taken, it's saying that because Dooku left the Jedi, he would never be on par with Yoda. Now, that's ridiculous, because when Dooku became a Sith, his power increased, he developed a wider range of combat skills, and he was freed of his Jedi restraint. Your interpretation makes no sense, because as usual, you're ignoring context.


Eh, fair enough.

quote:
I agree. Hence, I don't think you've got logical chops to pull this off.


We’ll see. So far I’ve proven that if the Ventress/Savage fight isn’t being used to argue Dooku’s limits as a Force user, there is nothing contradicting the quotes - a point you’ve conceded. I’ve proven that Yoda was aiming to kill Dooku - a point you’ve also conceded. And finally I have proven that Yoda is willing to ragdoll and blast his foes about in combat - a point you’ve not yet conceded but one I’m eagerly awaiting your reaction to. From the looks of things, it doesn’t seem like I’m losing or anything.


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"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 10th, 2017 05:16 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
Location:


 

quote:
Um, no, Dooku is pretty good at multitasking with the Force:

Dooku just pimp slapped three elite Force users. Not to compare the two Nightsisters with Savage individually, but they were noted to be the best on Dathomir, and there were two of them plus Ventress, and Dooku was poisoned, drugged, and exhausted, so it's a pretty good feat.


There's nothing suggesting those two are "elite Force users" anywhere near Savage. The fact that a rookie Savage and Ventress nearly killed a fresh Dooku, whereas a drugged Dooku managed to do that to them, proves how inferior they are. So no, I don't take that as evidence Dooku can ragdoll Savage and Ventress.

quote:
How does Dooku need to duel Ventress before ragdolling her? How does that make any sense? In my gif it's apparent Dooku could pin her to a wall and disarm her rather casually anytime he wanted. Dueling has nought to do with it.
Because before he ragdolled her, he dueled her and Force pushed her. Roughing her up and taxing her reserves. If you want to tell me Dooku can just ragdoll Savage and Ventress whenever he wants to, you need to lay a precedent down for it. We've got two examples of Dooku engaging in lightsaber fights before any ragdolling happens, but you want me to believe he can just raise a hand and ragdoll them.

quote:
He seemed to require even less effort to choke Savage:
Yeah, that's Savage the first time he used a lightsaber, right at the start of his training, without Ventress there to help him. Not really evidence for your point.

quote:
I don’t know. One could also ask why even drew his saber in the first place, when he’s fully capable of dodging them both at once unarmed. Or why he didn’t Force rape Kenobi in their duel on Oba Diah despite being fully capable of doing so to an even more powerful Kenobi while having a far more powerful Anakin breathing down his neck too. Or why he didn’t wreck Anakin with the Force in the TCW movie even though Ventress did... The answer is that characters often don’t act logically in duels, because the choreographers prioritize entertainment and cool factor over logic.
I wonder why it is you're so unwilling to express the same sentiment when it comes to Yoda and Dooku.

Your whole thing so far has been "if Yoda could have, he would have", even though there are many logical reasons a Jedi wouldn't ragdoll his opponent - but I'm supposed to assume a murderous Sith like Dooku withheld from Force choking his opponents in all of these scenarios not because he couldn't, but because there were lightsabers involved? Give me a break Az, nobody has to be that generous towards you.

quote:
Which is why you have Maul struggling with Sugi, a dog, and Pre Vizsla; and Anakin struggling with Hondo, etc. Dave Filoni has admitted this himself. This is why I don’t subscribe to the notion of “morals on” or “morals off” in a battle forum setting, because if you solely judge based on their so-called “morals”, on how they are depicted fighting in the stories themselves, every character is essentially an idiot and only use their Force powers at completely random and inconsistent intervals. I personally just look at characters’ list of abilities, feats and accolades, and ignore fighting choreography or how they use said abilities and when.
In canon, non-Force users tend to do much better, yeah.

I'm not talking about morals on and off. I'm talking about the fact Jedi are not encouraged to win by ragdolling their opponents, let alone the Grandmaster of the Order who is supposed to embody these ideals. That's something embedded into Yoda's character, not "cool factor over logic". You're using out of universe rationale to explain away what you don't like.

quote:
You are using Canon material here, when I was only agreeing to Legends. Of course in Canon Dooku would be casually flattened to a wall by Sidious or Yoda. One must simply look at how Mother Talzin, a peer of Sidious, handled Dooku and that’s obvious.

But if you want to discuss this in context of the continuity from which the idea of Dooku being a match for Yoda originates, let me know.
Ignoring canon events when we're discussing canon characters is an open concession on your part, and an attempt to cherry pick evidence. Legends doesn't exist without canon.

In Legends we have Dooku pissing his pants before Sidious in Ybig grinR, IIRC he perceived Sidious as a black hole in the Force during RotS, and Sidious ragdolling the Maul brothers, and probably more shit I can't remember. You still haven't proven Dooku is more powerful than Maul or Savage outside of your insistence on these summary quotes of the AotC fight meaning what you'd like them to mean.

quote:
It didn’t save him against Ventress and Savage, because he didn’t even use it there. Other than that, I don’t see your point here. Dooku has multiple quotes suggesting he was powerful enough to avoid being ragdolled by Yoda. That’s plenty more command of the Force and TK power than Maul and Savage combined.
He didn't use it... why? He was perfectly willing to use Force attacks, so why not ragdoll them both, as you seem to think he can? Again, you're insisting on these three quotes being proof Yoda can't ragdoll Dooku, and you have no evidence outside of them.

You totally ignored my points about command of the Force, and the glaring disparity shown between Dooku and Sidious regarding their fights against duos, so I'm taking this as a concession.
quote:
If you're using canon material as evidence, you're admitting that Sidious can ragdoll Dooku from light years away.

Okay, in your fictional setup where we ignore canon and just use Legends, Yoda would be willing to Force push Dooku. He chose not to - in fact he chose not to retaliate in any way apart from throwing his lightning back at him. That doesn't mean he can't ragdoll him. That means he chose not to use Force push.

Your intellectual dishonesty has become apparent now. We're supposed to afford Dooku this charity rationale of "he could have ragdolled Savage and Ventress if he wanted to/if there were no lightsabers involved, but XYZ". But when it comes to Yoda, your attitude becomes "If Yoda could have, he would have."

I'm getting really bored, and besides, your whole argument falls apart when you don't use summarising Legends quotes as evidence over Canon events anyway. That goes to show how far you're grasping for straws.

quote:
My extraordinary evidence is here:
Went over these already, and they're an inferior source of evidence to canon. You also dodged my entire point, which is that, outside of these three quotes you're clinging to, Dooku has no chance in hell of being more powerful than Maul and Savage combined.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 01:19 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
Location:


 

You still haven't proven Dooku is more powerful than Maul and* Savage


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 01:24 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

I'll respond soon.


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 01:38 PM
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godemperortrump
Death to the Sheevites

Registered: Sep 2017
Location: White House


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
You still haven't proven Dooku is more powerful than Maul and* Savage

Because he isn't.

Old Post Sep 28th, 2017 02:06 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
There's nothing suggesting those two are "elite Force users" anywhere near Savage. The fact that a rookie Savage and Ventress nearly killed a fresh Dooku, whereas a drugged Dooku managed to do that to them, proves how inferior they are. So no, I don't take that as evidence Dooku can ragdoll Savage and Ventress.


This was in response to you saying Dooku would need to split his attention between multiple targets, making his task more difficult. I showed this to prove it wouldn't be an issue for him.

That, coupled with the fact that it would take very little effort to choke either Ventress or Savage, as you've already conceded that my math was "on point," is sufficient proof for me that he could ragdoll both at once. So essentially:


  • Dooku can ragdoll multiple Force users at once, no problem
  • It only takes around 10 % (rough estimate) of Dooku's power to ragdoll either Ventress or Savage, leaving 90 % of it free to use on the other --> It takes only 20 % of Dooku's power to ragdoll both of them at once
  • Therefore, Dooku could ragdoll and insta-stomp both Ventress and Savage at once with Telekinesis, with minimal effort.


quote:
Because before he ragdolled her, he dueled her and Force pushed her. Roughing her up and taxing her reserves. If you want to tell me Dooku can just ragdoll Savage and Ventress whenever he wants to, you need to lay a precedent down for it. We've got two examples of Dooku engaging in lightsaber fights before any ragdolling happens, but you want me to believe he can just raise a hand and ragdoll them.


Right, and you think Ventress gets tired after a few minutes of dueling? And that Dooku would be unable to ragdoll her before "roughing her up"? We can simply point to the case of Obi-Wan Kenobi, where he was so significantly ahead of Ventress that he could crack her ribs with a simple Force push while smiling. Three years later, Obi-Wan has grown vastly more powerful, and what does Dooku do with him? Force stomp him in the middle of the duel, while having an infinitely more powerful Force user than Savage in the form of Anakin to deal with. No "roughing up" required, unless you think a few seconds of clashing blades and a single Force push somehow taxes Kenobi's Force reserves (it doesn't).

I have proven that Dooku can ragdoll multiple Force users at once easily. I have proven that Dooku takes a tiny fraction of his power to ragdoll both Ventress and Savage at once. I have proven Dooku can and has ragdolled and one-shot far more powerful Force users than Ventress while having a far more powerful Force user and duelist than Savage to deal with. I think that's enough of a precedent laid.

quote:
Yeah, that's Savage the first time he used a lightsaber, right at the start of his training, without Ventress there to help him. Not really evidence for your point.


It's enough evidence to further my point that ragdolling Savage is effortless child's play for him, which coincides with my other points that I have made so far, with all of them forming the conclusion that Dooku can indeed dominate both Ventress and Savage at once.

quote:
I wonder why it is you're so unwilling to express the same sentiment when it comes to Yoda and Dooku.

Your whole thing so far has been "if Yoda could have, he would have", even though there are many logical reasons a Jedi wouldn't ragdoll his opponent - but I'm supposed to assume a murderous Sith like Dooku withheld from Force choking his opponents in all of these scenarios not because he couldn't, but because there were lightsabers involved? Give me a break Az, nobody has to be that generous towards you.


I'm unwilling to express this sentiment when it comes to Yoda and Dooku because there are explicit quotes stating Yoda couldn't have beaten Dooku with the Force. Why Dooku didn't stomp Ventress and Savage is not my concern; all that matters is that he could have.

quote:
In canon, non-Force users tend to do much better, yeah.

I'm not talking about morals on and off. I'm talking about the fact Jedi are not encouraged to win by ragdolling their opponents, let alone the Grandmaster of the Order who is supposed to embody these ideals. That's something embedded into Yoda's character, not "cool factor over logic". You're using out of universe rationale to explain away what you don't like.


Yet we see this "embodiment of Jedi ideals" use the Force with authority and violent intent many times, debunking quite nicely the idea that it's "embedded into Yoda's character." Perhaps you'd have a point with ESB Yoda, who is a different character than RotS Yoda, at least prior to the latter realizing that you can't fight fire with fire; you can't fight the Sith with their own weapon and win - which he understood during his fight with Palpatine.

Anyway, I'm not even sure where this idea comes from that Jedi "aren't encouraged to win by ragdolling their opponents." ESB perhaps, but that doesn't work, as I've already explained. There's nothing wrong with Force gripping your opponent in and of itself; it is the emotions fueling that Force grip that matter. This is the reason why the Jedi Council allowed Plo Koon to continue using his Electric Judgement ability. Although it was identical to Sith Lightning in effect, Koon did not use anger or hate to fuel its use, making it valid in the Jedi Council's eyes.

And I'm not just "explaining away" what I don't like. If you want an in-universe explanation for why supposed master duelists keep using retarded sword moves that would get you killed in a real fight, or not using their Force powers, I don't have one. There comes a point where out-of-universe reasoning must be mixed in, a line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise things simply stop making sense and we get an assload of false quotes proclaiming amateurs to be master swordsmen and the entire lightsaber dueling hierarchy needing to be reconstructed from scratch.

quote:
Ignoring canon events when we're discussing canon characters is an open concession on your part, and an attempt to cherry pick evidence. Legends doesn't exist without canon.


Um, we agreed to the rules of the debate in the first few posts: Legends only, no Canon only content. TCW applies since it's also part of Legends. The fact that you are you are now attempting to shift the rules of the debate instead of playing by them indicates you don't have a counter to my evidence of Yoda ragdolling and pushing his foes, which is true, since I don't see it anywhere in your post.

And no, it’s not a concession if I never contested the point. I was already in agreement with you that Canon Dooku gets stomped by Canon Yoda on the basis of the Talzin feat. If you want to have a debate in the first place, then stop pushing this “Legends doesn’t exist without Canon” paradigm because if Canon is mixed in, then there’s no debate to be had because I already agree with you.

Also on a side note, you said that your policy is that in Canon character vs Canon character debates you use Canon and Legends; in Canon vs Legends characters you use Legends because it would be unfair for the Canon character, and according to you, you could simply say the Legends character doesn’t exist in Canon, so Canon can’t be mixed in; and in Legends vs Legends debates you use Legends only obviously. I have screenshots for all of these claims if you require evidence btw.

So I am curious: In, for example, Dooku vs Revan, because Revan is a Legends only character, you wouldn’t use Canon at all for Dooku for the reasons stated above. Would you still accuse the Dooku debater of “cherry-picking” evidence if he tried to argue for Yooku scaling and ignore Canon in a debate where his opponent is a Legends only character and would get erased if Canon was brought up, according to your own word? You said when asked about Vader vs Revan that Rebels couldn’t be used to argue limitations upon Vader because it’s Canon, so why am I suddenly a cherry-picking, intellectually dishonest cunt for not using Canon when debating in the mindset that my opponent is a Legends only character and thus only using Legends (which is the only thing I’ll ever do as I don’t care for Disney’s shit, and is also the rule we agreed to in the beginning)? Are you admitting that you yourself are a filthy cherry-picker, too, when you debate Legends only character against Canon ones, like you did here? According to you ignoring Canon is an “open concession,” so are you conceding to Ant here, or what? From the looks of it I’d say no (“If you want to debate Plagueis without needing to have him retconned to succeed, let me know” – You to Ant), but then why are you saying it’s an open concession on my part if I do the exact same thing as you (“but if you want to discuss this in context of the continuity from which the idea of Dooku being a match for Yoda originates, let me know” – me to you, a couple of posts back)? Am I detecting the stench of double standards here? Is ILS a hypocrite? You tell me.


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 03:21 AM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote:
In Legends we have Dooku pissing his pants before Sidious in Ybig grinR, IIRC he perceived Sidious as a black hole in the Force during RotS, and Sidious ragdolling the Maul brothers, and probably more shit I can't remember. You still haven't proven Dooku is more powerful than Maul or Savage outside of your insistence on these summary quotes of the AotC fight meaning what you'd like them to mean.


Again, not denying that there is a significant cap between Sidious and Dooku, but what you presented is not evidence for the idea that the gap is vast enough to accommodate a ragdoll.

And no, I don’t have other evidence than the quotes, but is that a problem? I have proven Yoda needed his lightsaber in his fight with Dooku. I have proven Yoda tried to kill Dooku. I have proven that TK dominating his enemies is part of Yoda’s character. If dominating his enemies is part of Yoda’s character, and Yoda tried to kill Dooku, then he would surely have just ragdolled him and snapped his neck? But if Yoda needed his lightsaber, then obviously he can’t just stomp him with TK. Is there something illogical with that conclusion? Why is that not proof enough that Dooku is more powerful than the duo of Savage and Maul? What else do you want?

quote:
He didn't use it... why? He was perfectly willing to use Force attacks, so why not ragdoll them both, as you seem to think he can? Again, you're insisting on these three quotes being proof Yoda can't ragdoll Dooku, and you have no evidence outside of them.


Addressed. And again, is that a problem?


quote:
You totally ignored my points about command of the Force, and the glaring disparity shown between Dooku and Sidious regarding their fights against duos, so I'm taking this as a concession.


Erm, you said:

Anyway... I think I'm being a little generous here. Let's just go straight to the evidence and look at this practically. A Force user's command of the Force is the core factor in how the fight will play out. It factors into both TK and dueling.

In terms of both TK and dueling, there are numerous quotes suggesting that Sidious toyed with the Maul brothers (I believe you're familiar with them). So, whether they're attacking him with lightsabers or the Force, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, right?

Let's compare that to how a rookie Savage and Ventress are described as matching up to Dooku:

And there's others describing Dooku as too powerful for them to beat/was powerful enough to escape. So, from what we can tell, Dooku "barely" had "the edge" over their combined might.

Going by this description, if Dooku was faced with Darth Maul (a clearly superior combatant to Ventress) and a much more experienced and well trained Savage, his defeat would be certain.

You make the excuse that "if it was just a Force fight" - but it is a Force fight. Their command of the Force manifests not just in their TK, but in their dueling skill, and all parties here have demonstrated an interest in training their dueling skill as best as they can.

The difference between Sidious and Dooku is that, when he's fighting Maul and Savage, it doesn't matter what category we're discussing - he will dominate.

Dooku, on the other hand, would surely lose a lightsaber contest not by merit of a skill or physical deficiency (Sidious is an old midget with less lightsaber experience than Dooku), but because his command of the Force isn't greater than Maul and Savage's combined. Similarly, his command of the Force regarding TK isn't greater than their's combined, and I see no evidence to suggest as much. Whatever his power with TK is, it barely saved him from Savage and Ventress, so surely it won't save him here, let alone against Sidious.


To which I responded:

You are using Canon material here, when I was only agreeing to Legends. Of course in Canon Dooku would be casually flattened to a wall by Sidious or Yoda. One must simply look at how Mother Talzin, a peer of Sidious, handled Dooku and that’s obvious.

But if you want to discuss this in context of the continuity from which the idea of Dooku being a match for Yoda originates, let me know.
It didn’t save him against Ventress and Savage, because he didn’t even use it there. Other than that, I don’t see your point here. Dooku has multiple quotes suggesting he was powerful enough to avoid being ragdolled by Yoda. That’s plenty more command of the Force and TK power than Maul and Savage combined.


I addressed all your key points here. Dooku barely having the edge against Ventress and Savage isn’t a thing because that source is Canon, not Legends. Dooku’s TK barely saving him from Savage and Ventress isn’t a thing because he never used it in the first place against them. Dooku has more command of the Force than Savage and Maul because wasn’t ragdolled by Yoda and also because he managed to hold off Yoda for 40 seconds and still had his saber in hand in the end, whereas Maul didn’t last 5 seconds against an all-out Sidious and was speedblitzed and disarmed instantly, so his command translates to both Force power and dueling (I guess I also should’ve mentioned that, so if that’s what you’re upset about, fair enough).

quote:
If you're using canon material as evidence, you're admitting that Sidious can ragdoll Dooku from light years away.


No, I am not admitting that because I can still argue Dooku wasn’t resisting there, which I believe he wasn’t. Sure, there is no quote outright stating he wasn’t resisting, but neither is there a quote stating he was, so we are left with subjective interpretations of the scene, each just as valid as the next. Except that the notion of Dooku resisting is not as valid, because of the quotes stating Yoda couldn’t ragdoll Dooku. A subjective interpretation cannot contradict and is automatically overruled by an objective one. The notion of Dooku resisting contradicts the notion of Yoda not being able to ragdoll Dooku – and seeing as how the former is baseless speculation, we can dismiss it in favor of the interpretation that aligns itself perfectly with established factual quotes, that Dooku wasn’t resisting Sidious and therefore Sidious wasn’t breaking through Dooku’s active Force shield.

quote:
Okay, in your fictional setup where we ignore canon and just use Legends, Yoda would be willing to Force push Dooku. He chose not to - in fact he chose not to retaliate in any way apart from throwing his lightning back at him. That doesn't mean he can't ragdoll him. That means he chose not to use Force push.


Yes, you are right, and your point is…? None of that was my reasoning for Yoda not ragdolling Dooku. My reasoning was that there are quotes stating he can’t. This seems like a strawman fallacy.

quote:
Your intellectual dishonesty has become apparent now. We're supposed to afford Dooku this charity rationale of "he could have ragdolled Savage and Ventress if he wanted to/if there were no lightsabers involved, but XYZ". But when it comes to Yoda, your attitude becomes "If Yoda could have, he would have."

I'm getting really bored, and besides, your whole argument falls apart when you don't use summarising Legends quotes as evidence over Canon events anyway. That goes to show how far you're grasping for straws.

Went over these already, and they're an inferior source of evidence to canon. You also dodged my entire point, which is that, outside of these three quotes you're clinging to, Dooku has no chance in hell of being more powerful than Maul and Savage combined.


I have given my reasons. You’re the one who’s grasping at straws by trying to enforce this notion of “Legends doesn’t exist without Canon” when the evidence doesn’t suit you, even though we agreed in the beginning that we wouldn’t use Canon. You’re the one who’s intellectually dishonest by trying to shift the rules instead of playing by them. You’re the one who cherry picks evidence, as shown in the debate with Ant you ignored Canon when it didn’t suit your needs but here you try to enforce it when it does suit your needs, also displaying double standards and hypocrisy by going against your own debating paradigm that you just established a day ago on Hangouts (I have screenshots to prove this), that being even further evidence of your intellectual dishonesty. Don’t ****ing accuse other people of the same shit that you’re pulling and then acting innocent.

.

.

.

*sigh* Sorry, I just got pissed at you and needed to let off some steam. I was expecting and hoping this wouldn’t devolve into a flame war like all the other Yooku debates with Sinious and DMB have, but it seems I was wrong. I hope we can still remain friends though.


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Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 03:26 AM
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Zenwolf
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: United States


 

quote:
Also on a side note, you said that your policy is that in Canon character vs Canon character debates you use Canon and Legends; in Canon vs Legends characters you use Legends because it would be unfair for the Canon character.


This is wrong.

quote:
You could simply say the Legends character doesn’t exist in Canon, so Canon can’t be mixed in; and in Legends vs Legends debates you use Legends only obviously.


This is right.


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Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 03:32 AM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zenwolf
This is wrong.



This is right.


I was describing ILS' own policy there, mate.


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"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 29th, 2017 03:43 AM
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