1. The comic is incredibly archaic and dubiously canon, given it belongs to SW: Tales, and the story of how Maul built his saberstaff has since been retconned.
2. Siolo left the order (apparently) 70 years before he fought Maul, ergo Dooku's accolade doesn't really apply to him.
3. And yes, it was quite a bit before Maul's prime presumably if that was when he first made his saberstaff.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
1. The retcon about Maul's saberstaff is right, but I don't think that's enough grounds to dismiss the entire story.
2. Don't know which accolade you're referring to, but Dooku has an accolade stating that he's only ever been eclipsed in the history of the Jedi Order up to AotC by Mace and Yoda in terms of swordsmanship. So by proxy, you can technically scale him off characters like KotOR Revan, KotOR II Exile, etc. along with Siolo'urmanka, which means that he does have a good chance of being Maul's superior with a blade. Of course, that's just swordsmanship.
3. It apparently takes place between 37 - 32 BBY.
Last edited by SunRazer on Nov 24th, 2016 at 01:33 PM
1. I would say it is. In the Siolo story Maul made the saberstaff to better combat him. In every other more modern story, he made the saberstaff because Sidious suggested it to him. That unravels the very basis for the Siolo story. It would be like me suggesting that even if the Maul clone fighting Vader isn't canon, there is still some merit to the story, and thus TPM Maul > Vader circa ANH. In other words, after TFU.
2. What I'm saying is, Siolo wasn't a Jedi for decades. He was a recluse. And the whole point of his character is that he left the Order, meditated in solitude for decades, and became incredibly powerful in the Force as a result - he found some kind of enlightenment away from the Jedi that few others do. I think you'd have to take a pretty slanted view to attribute his abilities to Dooku. Also, he uses a staff, not a sword.
3. It would have to be before every story in which Maul has a saberstaff, which is at least many years before TPM.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Well, I honestly wouldn't be against that, considering that Vader's a shadow of his former self as of ANH and has no feats above Maul anyways.
Well, he's still a duelist, and the point is that Dooku's a better/equal duelist than any Jedi bar Mace/Yoda up to AotC, which includes Siolo. If your point is that he became better in solitude, that's possible but unlikely to make up for the accolade.
I would hardly say that the logic of Dooku > Siolo > Maul is flawless either, of course. Just interested to see how far I can take it.
Is he shown with one before 37 BBY?
True, I was more going for equal with them. That's operating on the belief that Dooku's better than them with a blade, considering that the definition of "eclipse" means to "deprive of significance or power", which suggests that if they were all equal with Dooku, his standing as a duelist would indeed be deprived of significance.
You understand why that has to unravel at some point, right?
He doesn't wield a lightsaber, nor is he a Jedi, and hadn't been one for 70 years. He's basically an anomaly from an old ass comic. Also, he did become better in solitude; that isn't up for dispute because it mentions his enlightenment in the comic. I don't have it on-hand, but it's in there.
In The Wrath of Darth Maul I recall him constructing it shortly after passing his Sith Lord trial, which is when he was about 17. That's about 37BBY.
So, I guess I'm saying that I don't think Dooku being tied for the second best Jedi swordsman really applies to a former-Jedi hermit with a wooden staff, who grew in power substantially since leaving the Order, and doesn't help prove Dooku can defeat a Maul who had gained 5 years of experience since losing to Siolo. Add in that it's an ancient comic which is from a dubiously canon line of comics, and has had one of it's major plot elements retconned by every other source... and I'm going to say this line of reasoning is impossible to reconcile for your argument.
While I'm all for Dooku being > all the other Jedi before him, I also don't see said Jedi being along Maul's lines, either.
As for accolades, Maul isn't lacking. He's constantly celebrated as being one of the most "skilled", "highly trained", "lethal", and "dangerous" Sith warriors in the history of the Order.
He was trained by the most powerful Sith ever for 20 years, from infancy, for the purpose of being able to carry on the Rule of Two should he need to. Training which was 1,000 years more advanced than that of Bane's, meaning (to cut a long story short), Maul is likely to be better than Bane. And then you look at Bane's own absurd feats, and his accolade of being superior to every Sith preceding him.
I know not everyone subscribes to that line of thought, so another is that Maul was so important to Sidious that he:
-Was concealed from Plagueis at Sidious' own peril
-Stolen from Talzin, despite Talzin being comparably powerful to Sidious, and having secrets of the Dark Side he coveted at the time, which she would now not share with him
-Constantly received praise from him on how flawless his blade technique is, even in Sidious' private musings, along with praise from Plagueis on his "astonishing" speed
And, Sidious didn't even think it possible that Maul could have survived his injuries in TPM, despite being the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith in history. Meaning, Maul's feat of surviving being bisected is unprecedented, as far as Sidious knows.
Combine that with Maul's obvious stylistic advantages in a fight (all manners of physicality and his application of them with Juyo) and I don't see Jedi Dooku taking him.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Should also be noted that Siolo was noted as being one of the Jedi Order's greatest warriors before his seclusion and growth in power, so I'm not sure why this would be a mark against a vastly pre-prime TPM Maul anyway.
By the by Swords, I wouldn't be trying to mix Canon Maul's backstory with Legends, seeing as we're gonna be getting Canon material backstory for him soon. Otherwise it's probably gonna get confusing.
__________________ "Commence primary ignition."
Last edited by Zenwolf on Nov 24th, 2016 at 02:20 PM
This honestly depends on truly how large or small the power gap between TCW and TPM Maul is. If the gap is small, he could beat Dooku, considering he became more powerful as a Sith. If the gap is large, and TPM Maul is significantly weaker than his TCW version, Dooku probably takes this.
In terms of either canon or legends, Maul is the one sitting on a nuclear stockpile of evidence for his combat skill/power as of TPM. Dooku isn't. IIRC the way things are done on KMC is you take evidence, and then you reach a conclusion, and then worry about assumptions later on. Is Dooku void of this criteria because he's a senior citizen, or?
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I think what's logical is Maul increasing all the time gradually, like everyone else, with some surges in power in between (surviving his bisection and festering his hatred on Lotho Minor being the first, and seeing Savage/Talzin die being the second).
Rebels > TCW > TPM.
I'm disappointed that he hasn't changed much between TCW and Rebels, character-wise.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I think both Maul and Dooku grew significantly in power(not skill) since TPM.
Yoda says as much in AOTC: "Powerful you have become Dooku. The Dark side I sense in you."
As for Maul, leaving dubious TK feats aside(which don't translate well across different mediums), both Yoda and Dooku himself sensed Maul's power in the Dark side and were greatly disturbed.
And while Maul isn't purposely cloaking himself like Sidious, it's still notable that Yoda senses him from across the galaxy despite never having met him.
And it's especially impressive given that:
a) Sidious is actively blunting the Jedi's Force connection("our ability to use...")
b) Yoda didn't sense Dooku's fall to the Dark nor his growing power in the since TPM, despite having a close bond with him for decades. And he also didn't sense Maul previously, in TPM.
As for who would win, like every match-up between Dooku and Maul, it's probably a toss-up.
Dooku sans his Dark powers is still probably stronger than Qui-Gon, although in his general league. But Maul did beat Qui-Gon rather handily, despite also having Obi-Wan to contend with.
Maybe Maul takes this, given that Sidious specifically trained him as a Jedi killer, and he also had some real live experience against other Force users in the year leading up to TPM.
Dooku would have only sparred with other Jedi(and sparring is different than real kill or be killed fighing) plus whatever combat experience against he would have picked up in his missions as a Jedi, which probably wasn't much given that by TPM he had no padawan and was probably an elder statesman type of figure in the Order.
Maul on the other hand dueled Anoon Bondara and his padawan, Komari Vosa, Mighella, the padawan in the upcoming Maul novel. And he was also keeping himself quite busy, what with slaughtering Black Sun or fighting in prison deathmatches and all that.
Maybe the extra EXP gives him the edge.
Last edited by Unbowed on Nov 24th, 2016 at 07:52 PM
Feats from Dooku that rival doing pushups, killing Old post prime Jedi, and being really buff?
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Nov 24th, 2016 01:16 PM
