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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » The Case for Darth Tenebrous


The Case for Darth Tenebrous
Started by: Beniboybling

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Deronn Solo
King Yami

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: The Astral World


 

Nah, I just like telling others about my superior skills. smile


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Last edited by Deronn Solo on Jan 24th, 2017 at 03:55 AM

Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 03:46 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nah, I just like telling to others about my superior skills. smile

cocky nerfherdin feck

Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 03:53 AM
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Deronn Solo
King Yami

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: The Astral World


 

Don't think anyone would like me if I wasn't. wink


But nah, I'm only this way in front of a lot of people. I'm very nice in PM's and such, ask Wollf. smile


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 06:18 AM
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SunRazer
Back From The Dead

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: The distant past


 

Pff.

Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 06:21 AM
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MythLord
Diamond

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Homeworld


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
But nah, I'm only this way in front of a lot of people. I'm very nice in PM's and such, ask Wollf. smile


It's a lie!

JK, he's actually rather enjoyable to talk to when you get past the bravado.


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 06:22 AM
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Deronn Solo
King Yami

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: The Astral World


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SunRazer
Pff.

When I asked one of my good friends on CV to describe me in 16 word sentence, she had this to say:

"[You're] Articulate, intelligent, good looking guy, who is welcoming and kind, and has a great music taste."

You're just salty I'm never nice to you. laughing out loud


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 06:42 AM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC


 

Deronn is rather nice, yeah.
But he doesn't recognizes the power and the might of our lord and savior Tenebrous smile


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 06:45 AM
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SunRazer
Back From The Dead

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: The distant past


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
When I asked one of my good friends on CV to describe me in 16 word sentence, she had this to say:

"[You're] Articulate, intelligent, good looking guy, who is welcoming and kind, and has a great music taste."

You're just salty I'm never nice to you. laughing out loud


Trust me, I'm not salty that I'm spared your dreadful graces.

Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 06:58 AM
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Deronn Solo
King Yami

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: The Astral World


 

You and I both know that isn't true. smile


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2017 08:07 AM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

Bumping this thread to share my revised thoughts on the identity of the being described here:
quote:
He knew from his travels with and without Tenebrous that he wasn't the galaxy's sole practitioner of the dark side -- nor Sith for that matter, since the galaxy was rife with pretenders -- but he was now the only Sith Lord descended from the Bane line. A true Sith, and that realization roused the raw power coiled inside him.

And yet...

When he reached out with the Force he could detect the presence of something or some being of near-equal power. Was it the dark side itself, or merely a vestige of his uncertainty?
[...]
Was Tenebrous's spirit the source of the power he sensed? Was there a brief period of survival after death during which a true Sith could continue to influence the world of the living?
Namely I'd like to propose that it was not in fact Venamis but Sidious whom Plagueis was sensing, and what that means for Tenebrous (hint: it's better.)

This being something I picked up while in the process of compiling a new, updated respect thread for Plagueis (stay tuned darlings love ), namely that contrary to what's been believed, Palpatine did feel something similar when the title of "sole Sith Lord" was conferred to him:
quote:
His spirit soared, but briefly.

Something was shading his sense of triumph: a vague awareness of a power greater than himself. Was it Plagueis reaching out from their side of death to vex him? Or was the feeling a mere consequence of apotheosis?

Outside the summits of the tallest buildings were gilded by the first rays of daylight.
Logically, the only being this could really be is Anakin. No other being in the galaxy possesses greater power than him, bar perhaps Yoda or the Ones. Neither of which are at all thematically relevant to the story. Anakin is, and fundamentally. The final line could also well be an extended metaphor of the "dark before the dawn" notion that Plagueis uses in premonition of Anakin's rise earlier in the text.

Why is this important? Because Anakin's presence was concealed in the Force:
quote:
Nine years old... Conceived by the Force... Is it possible...

His thoughts rewound at frantic speed: to the landing platform on which he and Valorum had welcomed Amidala and her group. Actually not Amidala, but one of her look-alikes. But the sandy-haired boy, this Anakin, swathed in filthy clothing, had been there, along with a Gungan and the two Jedi. Anakin had spent the night in a tiny room in his apartment suite.

And I sensed nothing about him.
Eliminating the idea that Plagueis couldn't have being sensed Palpatine because he too failed to perceive his power in person. Instead it would appear this brief state of "apotheosis" offers a unique moment clarity.

What makes it a likelihood however if not a definite is the fact that after defeating Venamis, Plagueis remarks that though possessing a high midi-chlorian count, his opponent remained "inept" by his standards:
quote:
Blood analysis had revealed a high midi-chlorian count, which to Plagueis was further indication that a being could have great potential in the Force and yet still be inept.
Referred to again here:
quote:
"Yes," Damask said. "But if the boy's midi-chlorian concentrations are as high as Dooku hinted they are, then the Jedi aren't likely to allow him to escape their clutches."

"High midi-chlorian counts don't always equate to Force talents. You told me yourself."
And though Plagueis is being a bit snobbish here he's nonetheless making an empirical assessment. One he'd be highly unlikely to make had Venamis' abilities truly rivalled his own. And in terms of whose potential is likely more a "near-equal" to Plagueis, it's obviously Sheev.

There are textual parallels here too, both Plagueis and Palpatine suspect they may be feeling the presence of their deceased masters, but were arguably in fact both sensing the agent of their ultimate demise, it is, in a word, a premonition of their downfall, putting a suitable dampener on a moment of triumph.

---------------------------

So what does this mean for Tenebrous, you ask? smile

Well for starters, it means that Plagueis as of Tenebrous' death is around as powerful as as base-Palpatine is strong in the Force, by which I mean before the ritual plus the gravitic shift triggered by Plagueis own death reshaped his connection to the Force.

Tenebrous as it's been proven (and remains proven regardless of whether or not Venamis was being referred to) was significantly more powerful than his apprentice immediately prior to his death. We know that Plagueis got stronger after becoming the sole Sith Lord, but the fact he only notes this afterwards suggests it wasn't particularly profound, logically not enough to make him stronger than his master (especially given he was challenged by Venamis), and by association, Tenebrous would remain stronger than Palpatine as well.

Naturally the argument can be made that resultant of the ritual, Sidious surpassed Tenebrous. But given that Palpatine had yet to even fully realise his base potential (just a decade earlier his master's power remained beyond his comprehension), let alone through the ritual eclipse it, such an argument would bear little weight. Instead Tenebrous should be nebulously close to Sidious up until the point he surpasses Plagueis, and becomes factually the most powerful. Which I feel solidifies his standing much more so than Venamis did.


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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 6th, 2017 at 03:46 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2017 03:37 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Earth


 

That is a decent analysis. Darth Tenebrous should be (logically) one of the most powerful Sith in galactic history. No need for a lengthy essay to acknowledge this.

However, I get the impression that the Bannite Sith weren't necessarily one-upping each other in raw strength. They were one-upping each other with innate talents and specialties.

Darth Venamis, for example, is noted to have the potential to do well in the era of Darth Bane but same is true for a large number of powerful Sith. Also, whether Darth Venamis would be able to challenge Darth Bane himself in a fight (or not), is a matter of debate.

In short, one must be careful with straightforward power-scaling. Nothing is that black and white in Star Wars.

I find it extremely difficult to power-scale characters of TOR timeline as well. A simple reason is that some TOR era characters have fantastic showings at individual capacity but failed to tackle an opponent in a fight who doesn't have feats on their level otherwise.


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Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 6th, 2017 at 05:00 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2017 04:53 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That is a decent analysis.
Ur mum is decent, my analysis is transcendent.

quote:
Darth Tenebrous should be (logically) one of the most powerful Sith in galactic history. No need for a lengthy essay to acknowledge this.
You'd be surprised by what's needed. smile

quote:
However, I get the impression that the Bannite Sith weren't necessarily one-upping each other in raw strength. They were one-upping each other with innate talents and specialties.
Orly? I don't, personally.

quote:
Darth Venamis, for example, is noted to have the potential to do well in the era of Darth Bane but same is true for a large number of powerful Sith. Also, whether Darth Venamis would be able to challenge Darth Bane himself in a fight (or not), is a matter of debate.

In short, one must be careful with straightforward power-scaling. Nothing is that black and white in Star Wars.
"Darth" Venamis was not a full-fledged Sith Lord, nor in fact a Darth at all. And Plagueis was referring to his attitude, not his abilities, when he made that assessment. Altogether not sure what relevance this has to supporting your "impression."

On the other hand, the straightforward intepretation tends to be the correct one, in my experience.

quote:
I find it extremely difficult to power-scale characters of TOR timeline as well. A simple reason is that some TOR era characters have fantastic showings at individual capacity but failed to tackle an opponent in a fight who doesn't have feats on their level otherwise.
I approach with the general assumption that TOR characters and shit, then work from there. You should try it. thumb up


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2017 07:24 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Earth


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ur mum is decent, my analysis is transcendent.

You'd be surprised by what's needed. smile

Orly? I don't, personally.

"Darth" Venamis was not a full-fledged Sith Lord, nor in fact a Darth at all. And Plagueis was referring to his attitude, not his abilities, when he made that assessment. Altogether not sure what relevance this has to supporting your "impression."

On the other hand, the straightforward intepretation tends to be the correct one, in my experience.

I approach with the general assumption that TOR characters and shit, then work from there. You should try it. thumb up

I am not sure what my mom has anything to do with this? Keep it civil.

Let us take a look at the first 3 examples of Bannite Sith.

Darth Bane - specialized in light saber combat
Darth Zannah - specialized in Sith Sorcery
Darth Cognus - specialized in Force suppression

Darth Zannah didn't had more raw power than Darth Bane. She defeated him in a setting where she could bring her Sith Sorcery talent to bear against him. So this wasn't a straightforward victory for her. Not sure how Darth Cognus got the better of Darth Zannah.

We also know how Palpatine bested Darth Plagueis; it wasn't a fair contest. Heck, we also know how Darth Tenebrous fell. That wasn't a fair fight either. In both cases, trickery and/or cheating came into play.

Get my point now?

Therefore, straightforward interpretations and generalizations do not cut it.


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Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 6th, 2017 at 07:45 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2017 07:32 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure what my mom has anything to do with this? Keep it civil.
wink

quote:
Let us take a look at the first 3 examples of Bannite Sith.

Darth Bane - specialized in light saber combat
Darth Zannah - specialized in Sith Sorcery
Darth Cognus - specialized in Force suppression

Darth Zannah didn't had more raw power than Darth Bane. She defeated him in a setting where she could bring her Sith Sorcery talent to bear against him. So this wasn't a straightforward victory for her. Not sure how Darth Cognus got the better of Darth Zannah.
None of these abilities are intrinsically "better" that the other, so that only disproves this idea of one up-manship.

And Bane believed Zannah had the potential to surpass him, given her proximity to him in DoE, it's only logical that she did.

quote:
We also know how Palpatine bested Darth Plagueis; it wasn't a fair contest. Heck, we also know how Darth Tenebrous fell. That wasn't a fair fight either. In both cases, trickery and/or cheating came into play.

Get my point now?

Therefore, straightforward interpretations and generalizations won't cut it.
No not really, besting your master in fair combat doesn't preclude you being more powerful in the long run, and indeed, both Plagueis and Palpatine did. On the other hand, multiple sources attest to the Banite line producing more powerful Sith with each generation, so it seems fairly clear cut. thumb up


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2017 07:48 PM
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Azronger
Most Powerful Jedi

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: Kicking ass since 1980


 

That's an... interesting way to look at it, Beni.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2017 07:49 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

It's the right way. smile


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2017 08:11 AM
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SunRazer
Back From The Dead

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: The distant past


 

Interesting new thoughts, Beni. One problem with Plagueis and Sidious' senses during their "apotheosis", which can of course be fairly said to grant them a brief moment of extreme clairvoyance. However, Sidious failed to sense the Force in Anakin prior to his apotheosis, whereas he was able to sense the Force in Anakin in person afterwards. Whereas Plagueis failed to sense the Force in Sidious after his ascension to Dark Lord.

Old Post Mar 7th, 2017 08:13 AM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

He did? I assume this happens in another text as this happens at the end of the novel.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2017 08:45 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Immortal Emperor

Registered: Aug 2013
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Threads like this are why I still exist, here. Great post, great arguments, Beni. thumb up


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2017 08:46 AM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
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Thx. love


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2017 10:38 AM
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